"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

[Chopper]

Here's one to ponder; when Jesus encountered the man with the legion of demons, a demon stated, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?" The demon knew exactly who Jesus was. He believed.

And the Demon afflicting the man in the synagogue at Capernaum said "I know who You are—the Holy One of God!” He also believed.

And James said, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!"

So it would seem that something more than belief is necessary. Otherwise, all those demons would have been saved.

IMHO: Faith is meaningless without faithfulness.

iakov the fool

Very interesting Jim. I would say, knowledge and belief are two separate mind sets as far as demons go. As far as those who "believe" in Jesus, some believe because of wrong reasoning such as these in John 2:23. "many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did." My thinking is that these ones here were thinking what Jesus might do for them. Believing in Jesus for selfish reasons other than Salvation is not true belief in my book.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here's one to ponder; when Jesus encountered the man with the legion of demons, a demon stated, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?" The demon knew exactly who Jesus was. He believed.

And the Demon afflicting the man in the synagogue at Capernaum said "I know who You are—the Holy One of God!” He also believed.

And James said, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!"

So it would seem that something more than belief is necessary. Otherwise, all those demons would have been saved.

IMHO: Faith is meaningless without faithfulness.

iakov the fool

The issue in salvation is not just "believing". It's specifically about what is believed. In the case of what the demons believe, demonstrated in your examples and by James' comment, they believed that God is One. They believed in monotheism. But that belief isn't part of saving faith.

And, why do the demons believe that God is One and that Jesus is the Holy One of God? Because at one time, before they rebelled, they lived with Him. Their belief is not based on what was unseen, but what had been seen.

And, Jesus never died for any angel or demon, so there is no issue about "saving faith" for them.

The issue of saving faith for mankind is specific: faith requires a specific object, which is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. That MUST be believed. And faith requires a specific goal or purpose, which is obtaining eternal life from the One being believed in.

If these 2 things are absent from one's 'faith', they don't have saving faith.

As to faithfulness, it is to those who have believed. And are already saved. And the purpose or goal of faithfulness is not salvation, but reward.

 

[JLB]

As to faithfulness, it is to those who have believed. And are already saved. And the purpose or goal of faithfulness is not salvation, but reward.

Here it what Peter says, in direct opposition to your words.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22`

One only has to read these words to know that people that have faith, are faithful.

They are faithful to not turn from the holy commandment, that was delivered to them.

Not holy commandments, [plural], but the holy commandment.

The holy commandment of the Gospel is Repent... for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Repent means to turn to God, and by default turn away from Satan as lord, to Jesus as Lord.

The term Repent is about changing kingdoms by changing the Lord you serve.

This is what Paul was sent to do by Jesus Christ.

17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:17-18


The way we are forgiven of our sins, as a lost person, is by obeying the Gospel command to repent, not repent of our sins, but repent, which means to turn to God. The Gospel is about changing which Lord we serve, from Satan to Jesus.

When we repent, we are forgiven our sins.


This concept is clear in Peter's words.... look at what he says, the linch-pin statement by which a person who has escaped from the power of Satan, escaped from the pollutions of this world, through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, and has become ensnared and overcome again, leading to a far worse condition than when they were unbelievers.

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


Repent is turn to God, and by default turn way from Satan as lord.

To "turn from" the holy commandment is to "un-repent" or to turn back from Jesus as Lord, and being overcome again as a slave to the domain of darkness.

When we repent and turn to Jesus as Lord and confess Him, we are transferred out of the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of God.

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13-14


So, according to Peter, it is only those who are faithful, and faithful to the end that will receive the salvation of their souls.


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1;6-9


...receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Here it what Peter says, in direct opposition to your words.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22`

One only has to read these words to know that people that have faith, are faithful.

They are faithful to not turn from the holy commandment, that was delivered to them.

This has all been explained before, and there was NO refutation of anything I posted. Only disagreement, which isn't refutation.

Peter was speaking about one's live on earth, not eternally, as you keep assuming. So, the 'latter end' refers to the time on earth after they have become entangled and overcome. It refers to God's hand of discipline.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1;6-9

...receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul.JLB

I guess one has to reject the word of Jesus to think that salvation only comes at the end of one's life. Because He said that the one who has believed HAS eternal life. That is present tense. They have it now. When they believe, not at the end of their life, which seems to be your view.

And it's been proven that God's gifts are justification and eternal life and God's gifts are irrevocable, another doctrine that you've rejected without reason.

Because of your doctrinal rejections, much of Scripture cannot be properly understood.

 

[JLB]

This has all been explained before, and there was NO refutation of anything I posted. Only disagreement, which isn't refutation.

Peter was speaking about one's live on earth, not eternally, as you keep assuming. So, the 'latter end' refers to the time on earth after they have become entangled and overcome. It refers to God's hand of discipline.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

...For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

So, the 'latter end' refers to the time on earth after they have become entangled and overcome.

For if, after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.


...the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

Those who have known the Lord, and turned back away from Him and become enslaved again by the devil, will end up worse off than unbelievers who have never known Him.

I guess one has to reject the word of Jesus to think that salvation only comes at the end of one's life

Jesus own words -

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13



JLB

 

[JLB]

And it's been proven that God's gifts are justification and eternal life and God's gifts are irrevocable, another doctrine that you've rejected without reason.

Because of your doctrinal rejections, much of Scripture cannot be properly understood.

It's never been proven because it doesn't exist in the bible.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2


The person, as represented by the branch, is in Christ.

Then later, the person is "taken away" from Christ by God the Father.


We must take in the full counsel of God, and not just cherry pick the verse's our itching ears want to hear.



JLB

 

[reba]

I am aware that many consider the baptism of the Holy Spirit to be a separate experience from salvation. I don't. And I don't see the gift of tongues as being the measure of this baptism.

 

[Jim Parker]

Very interesting Jim. I would say, knowledge and belief are two separate mind sets as far as demons go.

A man who has never seen an airplane may correctly believe that such things exist. A man who has flown in one knows they exist.

As far as those who "believe" in Jesus, some believe because of wrong reasoning such as these in John 2:23. "many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did." My thinking is that these ones here were thinking what Jesus might do for them. Believing in Jesus for selfish reasons other than Salvation is not true belief in my book.

Creflo Dollar et. al. have made millions by preaching that kind of "stuff."

Peter's words to those preachers is, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.” (Acts 8:20-23 NKJV)

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

As to faithfulness, it is to those who have believed. And are already saved. And the purpose or goal of faithfulness is not salvation, but reward.

Faith without faithfulness is dead and will not save anyone.

iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

Couldn't be further from the truth.

From your view, of course.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13JLB

And this verse has zero relevance to 2 Pet. The context for this verse is obvious to all who have read it.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's never been proven because it doesn't exist in the bible.

Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 say that justification is a gift, and we all know that justification comes from God. Therefore, justification is a gift of God.

And Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.

Those are the plain FACTS.

And Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Just connect the dots.

Between Rom 6:23 and 11:29 there is NO mention of gifts. That is the plain FACT.

Therefore, it is obvious that Paul taught that justification and eternal life are irrevocable gifts of God.

There was no reason to comment on the other verses, since you have rejected the truth that justification and eternal life, both of which relate directly to salvation, are irrevocable. So none of the verses you quoted have anything to do with loss of salvation. Because the Bible teaches the irrevocability of justification and eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Faith without faithfulness is dead and will not save anyone.

iakov the fool

I'm sorry that your understanding of James 2 is misguided. If faith requires "faithfulness", then one is saved by a combination of faith and works. But the Bible doesn't teach that. We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8.

And v.9 says "not by works". And no verse says it's a combination of faith and works. Not even James said that.

 

[Jim Parker]

And Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.

What else does Paul say?

(God) “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Ro 2:6-10 NKJV)

oh my! :shock

Grace is free. Salvation requires that your behavior identifies you as a child of God who was "created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Eph 2: 10, Paul again, NIV [the forgotten verse])


iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm sorry that your understanding of James 2 is misguided. If faith requires "faithfulness", then one is saved by a combination of faith and works. But the Bible doesn't teach that. We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8.

And v.9 says "not by works". And no verse says it's a combination of faith and works. Not even James said that.

And verse 10 says "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

So why would you tell people that we don't have to "walk in" (do) the good works which God specifically prepared for each one of us to do? Why would you teach that we can ignore God's will which is that we do the good works He personally prepared for each one of us to do?

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm sorry that your understanding of James 2 is misguided.

Based on what??? Your understanding??

James said that faith with out works is dead and will not save anyone.

He also said that it is by works and not by faith alone than man is justified.

Don't believe me. Read it for yourself.


iakov the fool

 

[Edward]

Vital subject, old friend. I believed after Paul was blown to pieces in November of '69 but I, in no fashion, believe I was saved. On my Jean Vest I flew my colors proclaiming God is alive and it seemed like every time I turned around, God was knocking my legs out from under me, for more than twenty-three years.

So, was my name written in the Book of Life? It was recorded before there was an Earth. But i was busy womanizing and singing rowdy music, to busy to pay attention to God and all of this requires a good deal of examination to understand what appears at first glance to be a contradiction.

WE, humans, must accept, not understand but just accept that there is no limit to the power of God. This is essential to grasp a number of statements God makes in the Bible.

But what in the world am I talking about? God created, this Time/Space Continuum, solely for man to measure his existance, progress, life and all else by. It has no restriction on or Heavenly Father in any form.

God being outside this, ¿can I say bubble? looking and occasionally stepping in, is not restricted to our Time Frame. This permits Him to be able to be in the past, the present and our future at the same time. WOW!

So before God began to create He knew every step each of us, lost or saved, would take as we live. This is Predestination, as it is taught in the whole of scripture. It has no9thing to do with God creating one to go to Heaven and then creating a thousand more to go to Hell.

No, God also teaches us that every man, woman and child has a God awarded Free Will he or she commands. But at the same time, and though I grasp this, I do not pretend to understand it, God has always been present in the future and because He is and He was in the past, simultaneously, God knows what and when each one of us will do this or that before we arrive there.

In summary; I do believe salvation is a bit more than just believing. Can I be wrong? Yes and if or when Jesus tells me I am I will change my view.

May God bless brother.

A good way to illustrate this "bubble" that you speak of, is to envision that the whole room that you sit in is "eternity", where God resides, and when He created our universe (now hold up a pop bottle in the midst of the room, which represents our universe & time etc.,) it appeared and began. God is outside the bubble/bottle and not subject to the laws of time & physics, can even pluck a man out of the bottle and take him forward to see the future etc., then take him back (like John-Patmos...)

Easy smeezy to envision!
Good post Brother, thanks.

 

[JLB]

Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 say that justification is a gift, and we all know that justification comes from God. Therefore, justification is a gift of God.

And Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.

Those are the plain FACTS.

And Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Just connect the dots.

Between Rom 6:23 and 11:29 there is NO mention of gifts. That is the plain FACT.

Therefore, it is obvious that Paul taught that justification and eternal life are irrevocable gifts of God.

There was no reason to comment on the other verses, since you have rejected the truth that justification and eternal life, both of which relate directly to salvation, are irrevocable. So none of the verses you quoted have anything to do with loss of salvation. Because the Bible teaches the irrevocability of justification and eternal life.

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:4-11



JLB

 

[JLB]

There was no reason to comment on the other verses, since you have rejected the truth that justification and eternal life, both of which relate directly to salvation, are irrevocable. So none of the verses you quoted have anything to do with loss of salvation. Because the Bible teaches the irrevocability of justification and eternal life.

9 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:19-22

 

[Chopper]

Here it what Peter says, in direct opposition to your words.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22`

One only has to read these words to know that people that have faith, are faithful.

They are faithful to not turn from the holy commandment, that was delivered to them.

Not holy commandments, [plural], but the holy commandment.

The holy commandment of the Gospel is Repent... for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Repent means to turn to God, and by default turn away from Satan as lord, to Jesus as Lord.

The term Repent is about changing kingdoms by changing the Lord you serve.

This is what Paul was sent to do by Jesus Christ.

17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:17-18


The way we are forgiven of our sins, as a lost person, is by obeying the Gospel command to repent, not repent of our sins, but repent, which means to turn to God. The Gospel is about changing which Lord we serve, from Satan to Jesus.

When we repent, we are forgiven our sins.


This concept is clear in Peter's words.... look at what he says, the linch-pin statement by which a person who has escaped from the power of Satan, escaped from the pollutions of this world, through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, and has become ensnared and overcome again, leading to a far worse condition than when they were unbelievers.

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


Repent is turn to God, and by default turn way from Satan as lord.

To "turn from" the holy commandment is to "un-repent" or to turn back from Jesus as Lord, and being overcome again as a slave to the domain of darkness.

When we repent and turn to Jesus as Lord and confess Him, we are transferred out of the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of God.

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13-14


So, according to Peter, it is only those who are faithful, and faithful to the end that will receive the salvation of their souls.


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1;6-9


...receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul.



JLB

JLB, I'm trying to make sense out of your posts. Who was you referring to by this statement "Here it what Peter says, in direct opposition to your words." Whose words?

 

[Chopper]

Hey Brothers. You are leading off your post with a statement about a previous thought by someone. It would help if you would identify who or what you are referring too, otherwise it makes no sense.