"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

[Roro1972]

I have not read the 12 pages; this may have been posted if so I missed it; let know thanks.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
thoughts on this would help me out

 

[JLB]

Case closed. It does support eternal security. In fact, the verse TEACHES eternal security.

You can say it does all you want, but the fact is eternal life, nor salvation is mentioned in this verse.

• No where in this verse is salvation or eternal life mentioned.

• The context: there were those that were cut of from God as branches. Romans 11:19-22, John 15:6

• The meaning of the word irrevocable: not repentant of, unregretted Strong's G278

• The overwhelming clarity of the other scriptures that teach and warn God's people of not inheriting the kingdom of God, through apostasy or practicing the works of the flesh, or taking the mark of the beast.

The context for 11:29 is EVERYWHERE before 11:29 that Paul describes what God's gifts are.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Romans 11:20-22

Unfortunately for your doctrine, this phrase in Romans 11, just before verse 29 is the nail in the coffin for your OSAS doctrine.

We are warned that those who are grafted in by believing, can indeed be cut off, and disconnected through unbelief.

as Jesus taught -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Still waiting for you to post the scripture that says a believer who is in Christ, then gets severed from Christ, still has eternal life.

Otherwise you are furthering an unbiblical doctrine of man.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You can say it does all you want, but the fact is eternal life, nor salvation is mentioned in this verse.

As I've repeatedly pointed out, it wasn't necessary for Paul to repeat himself. He already noted what God's gifts are: justification from 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and eternal life from 6:23. The VERY NEXT USE of "gifts" is found in 11:29, so the connection is DIRECT, even though you refuse to accept it.

• No where in this verse is salvation or eternal life mentioned.

• The context: there were those that were cut of from God as branches. Romans 11:19-22, John 15:6

• The meaning of the word irrevocable: not repentant of, unregretted Strong's G278

• The overwhelming clarity of the other scriptures that teach and warn God's people of not inheriting the kingdom of God, through apostasy or practicing the works of the flesh, or taking the mark of the beast.

Repeating this tired old saw does no good. When will you prove from anywhere in Romans that Paul did NOT have eternal life and justification in mind when he wrote 11:29? That's the key, and you have not proven your position from Scripture.

Unfortunately for your doctrine, this phrase in Romans 11, just before verse 29 is the nail in the coffin for your OSAS doctrine.

You mean v.28? How so?

We are warned that those who are grafted in by believing, can indeed be cut off, and disconnected through unbelief.

OK. So prove that to be "cut off" means loss of salvation. Anywhere in the Bible.

as Jesus taught -
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

OK. So prove that to "not abide in Me" means loss of salvation. Anywhere in the Bible.

So far, all you've done is make these huge assumptions.

Still waiting for you to post the scripture that says a believer who is in Christ, then gets severed from Christ, still has eternal life.

I'm waiting for any verse that says that those severed from Christ lost their salvation.

Otherwise you are furthering an unbiblical doctrine of man.

JLB

You've got lots of things to prove. So, any time will be fine.

 

[JLB]

Repeating this tired old saw does no good. When will you prove from anywhere in Romans that Paul did NOT have eternal life and justification in mind when he wrote 11:29? That's the key, and you have not proven your position from Scripture.

Sorry, but you are going to have to come up with another scripture, because I have clearly and plainly refuted your "interpretation", by the context, the meaning if the word irrevocable, the other scriptures, and from Jesus, who taught us about being removed from Him, after you are in Him.

So, let's examine another scripture you have, if you have one, because you have struck out with Romans 11;29.

• No where in this verse is salvation or eternal life mentioned.

• The context: there were those that were cut of from God as branches. Romans 11:19-22, John 15:6

• The meaning of the word irrevocable: not repentant of, unregretted Strong's G278

• The overwhelming clarity of the other scriptures that teach and warn God's people of not inheriting the kingdom of God, through apostasy or practicing the works of the flesh, or taking the mark of the beast.

JLB

 

[JLB]

You've got lots of things to prove. So, any time will be fine.

I have proved over and over with scripture, that OSAS is not a doctrine taught by Jesus or Paul or Peter or John.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Why would you teach people that a person who was in Christ, then removed from Christ is still saved?



JLB

 

[smaller]

When it comes to dealing with matters such as 'faith' or 'belief' there is not one person on earth that really knows what another person's actual 'faith' or actual 'belief(s)" consist of other than God Himself.

It's entirely intangible territory, and in the Hands of God, thankfully.

Ecclesiastes 9:1
For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry, but you are going to have to come up with another scripture, because I have clearly and plainly refuted your "interpretation", by the context, the meaning if the word irrevocable, the other scriptures, and from Jesus, who taught us about being removed from Him, after you are in Him.

I undestand that is your opinion, but Scripture is even more clear than your "interpretations".

Paul described eternal life and justification as gifts of God in Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and 6:23. And then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. Not to be repented of. However you want to translate the Greek word STILL refutes your ideas completely.

Not only that, all believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise, a guarantee of God's own possession, for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

You've epically failed to explain how any of these verses do not teach eternal security.

To do so, you're going to have to find verses that teach that God goes back on His promises, which is tantamount to claiming that God lies. So good luck with that.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have proved over and over with scripture, that OSAS is not a doctrine taught by Jesus or Paul or Peter or John.

I cannot imagine why anyone would think that simple disagreement equals refutation or proof of anything.

You've proven only your extreme stubbornness against what the Scriptures very clearly teach.

Eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23), and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). That is totally straightforward and direct. Those who reject that eternal life is irrevocable are rejecting what is clearly taught by Paul.

Paul also taught that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a promise or guarantee to God's own possession (believers) for the day of redemption.

You've epically failed to show that these verses do not teach eternal security. Eph 1:13,14,4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Where shall I look to find ANYWHERE in this verse the words "eternal life", or "salvation", or "loss" of either??

You seem obsessed with finding specific words in specific verses, but it seems not ALL verses, huh.

Why would you teach people that a person who was in Christ, then removed from Christ is still saved?JLB

What I believe is that once placed in Christ, every believer is SEALED with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee of God's own possession for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

Therefore, believers CANNOT be "removed from Christ" as you erroneously think. Or was Paul totally confused, wrong?

Why are you so adamantly against what Paul taught so clearly about those who have believed?

 

[JLB]

Where shall I look to find ANYWHERE in this verse the words "eternal life", or "salvation", or "loss" of either??

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

again

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.1 Corinthians 6:17

Being in Christ is eternal life.

Being disconnected from Christ, is being disconnected from the eternal life that flows from Him to us.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2


Unless you can show a scripture that says we continue to have eternal life, though we have been disconnected from Christ, then OSAS continues to be an unbiblical doctrine, that is man made.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What I believe is that once placed in Christ, every believer is SEALED with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee of God's own possession for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14

God's seal of approval, or mark of approval is, the Holy Spirit, given to those who believe in Christ.

Only believer's are given the mark or seal of approval.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

Those who turn away from Him in unbelief, no longer qualify for the seal of the King's approval.

Did someone mislead you into thinking this word "seal" meant something else, such as an "air-tight" seal on a canning jar.

That's not what this words means.

Seal is the as a King's seal that he sets upon a letter or document to authenticate it, as being from the King.

This seal says to Satan and his forces that we belong to God, however if begin to walk in rebellion to the Spirit, we can open ourselves up to be attacked or enticed by the enemy.

The enemy must work in concert with the believers carnal nature to entice him into sin.

James says -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I undestand that is your opinion, but Scripture is even more clear than your "interpretations".

Paul described eternal life and justification as gifts of God in Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and 6:23. And then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. Not to be repented of. However you want to translate the Greek word STILL refutes your ideas completely.

Not only that, all believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise, a guarantee of God's own possession, for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

You've epically failed to explain how any of these verses do not teach eternal security.

To do so, you're going to have to find verses that teach that God goes back on His promises, which is tantamount to claiming that God lies. So good luck with that.

OSAS is an interesting topic.
What I can say to you is that you're correct in what you say above regarding gifts being irrevocable. And believers being sealed with the H. S.

It all sounds good. Only problem is that we CHOSE to believe and trust in the Lord. The choice has been put forth to us since the O.T. Such as Deuteronomy 30:15
John 3:16 would be a good verse too. WHOSOEVER believes...

It's OUR CHOICE to remain with God. It's not God that takes the gifts back, it's US giving them back because we don't want them anymore.

We are sealed as a pledge to our redemption. Till the day of redemption. But Jesus Himself says that we must persevere until the end to be saved, Mathew 10:22. We cannot decide to ABANDON God and still expect to be saved. What would be the difference between us and the atheist? There would be none - we'd be the same, both denying God.

Now we could go back and forth with scripture but here's one I like:

2 Peter 2:19-22

The persons were saved but have returned to the world and have become entangled again. The writer (probably Peter the apostle) says that they had the knowledge of Jesus Christ but have become again entangled. He even says the second state is worse than the first. And in verse 22 he says it's like a dog returning to its vomit.

Those are pretty strong words. I don't know how anyone could reason them away.

Wondering

 

[th1b.taylor]

I have not read the 12 pages; this may have been posted if so I missed it; let know thanks.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
thoughts on this would help me out

Dude, You seem to have been over-looked. I just got my coffee and have not opened my Bible yet but Mark 16:16 is not a favorite verse for to many. I suggest you purchase a Hard Copy of the Nave's Topical Bible, mine cost me $25 but first, download e-Sword at e-sword.net and once installed, click Downloads in the tool bar, click Dictionaries and click Naves.

Now, there is one entire Sermon in this verse that, in these modern day conditions, has been completely ignore because if is divisive!

You see, this verse violates the ever popular, false, belief that if you profess with your mouth and you are dunked in the Baptistery, you are saved. This is where the anti-OSAS derive the idea of the License to Freely Sin from. Salvation is, indeed, almost unconditional but it is not so.

Case in point and I know folks are tired of hearing about it but it is so important. The Barna Group did a Survey of the catholic Church, not the Catholic but the catholic Church. It was a, completely, cross denominational (catholic) survey with nothing but the basics in question.

The survey included only members the pastor could certify as The Faithful (attending service no less than three times a week) and the test was double blind to afford the most honest answers. Less than two percent of those, Faithful, surveyed believed in the basics of Christianity, things like the Virgin Birth, Jesus dying on the cross for their sins and Jesus returning to rapture us out of here.

I say all of that to demonstrate: Many in the Church today profess, publicly what they do not believe in their heart and this verse is the assurance that they are baptized, certified and registered... but surprise at the Judgement, they are not saved.

 

[th1b.taylor]

OSAS is an interesting topic.
What I can say to you is that you're correct in what you say above regarding gifts being irrevocable. And believers being sealed with the H. S.

It all sounds good. Only problem is that we CHOSE to believe and trust in the Lord. The choice has been put forth to us since the O.T. Such as Deuteronomy 30:15
John 3:16 would be a good verse too. WHOSOEVER believes...

It's OUR CHOICE to remain with God. It's not God that takes the gifts back, it's US giving them back because we don't want them anymore.

We are sealed as a pledge to our redemption. Till the day of redemption. But Jesus Himself says that we must persevere until the end to be saved, Mathew 10:22. We cannot decide to ABANDON God and still expect to be saved. What would be the difference between us and the atheist? There would be none - we'd be the same, both denying God.

Now we could go back and forth with scripture but here's one I like:

2 Peter 2:19-22

The persons were saved but have returned to the world and have become entangled again. The writer (probably Peter the apostle) says that they had the knowledge of Jesus Christ but have become again entangled. He even says the second state is worse than the first. And in verse 22 he says it's like a dog returning to its vomit.

Those are pretty strong words. I don't know how anyone could reason them away.

Wondering

The real question, neither you nor I can answer is; Were they ever, truly saved? I seem to recall, no name is ever erased from the BOOK OF LIFE so, was their name ever there?

Oh FYI, I am OSAS. My name is written there and I will pass over in service.

 

[GodsGrace]

The real question, neither you nor I can answer is; Were they ever, truly saved? I seem to recall, no name is ever erased from the BOOK OF LIFE so, was their name ever there?

Oh FYI, I am OSAS. My name is written there and I will pass over in service.

Hi Bill,

In post no. 272 you say:

I say all of that to demonstrate: Many in the Church today profess, publicly what they do not believe in their heart and this verse is the assurance that they are baptized, certified and registered... but surprise at the Judgement, they are not saved.

Would this be:
Mathew 7:21? I think so.

But, the OSAS people have the same problem as the above. So, just crying out Lord Lord is enough?

Here's why I have a problem with this concept - which I do not believe to be biblical.
So I decide to become a Christian when I'm 20. When I'm 25 I feel like I've had enough of this God business and decide to ABANDON God.

Am I doing the will of the Father? By abandoning Him, His Son and the Holy Spirit?
I don't think so.

The Father sent Jesus to die on that bloody cross for us and it seems like He wouldn't take too kindly to our denying that. It's pleasant to think of God as a nice, loving God but He's also a just God.
Would not abandoning Him grieve the Holy Spirit? How would His justice work in that case?

Of course persons who believe as you do MUST come to the conclusion that if one falls away, he was never saved to begin with. Calvinists believe this too. If they didn't come to this conclusion, how would they ever know THEY are really saved?

Scripture if full of verses confirming we can chose to leave God. I posted some - I don't intend to convince you by posting more.

the funny thing here is that you're saying you can never lose salvation - someone else could be worried for their soul because they left God for a number of years.

I think God can accept anything, any wrong belief or doctrine, but I think He cannot accept our denying Him and living as if He didn't exist.

Lata...

Wondering

 

[smaller]

The scheme of "performance standards" is the theological glue that holds a lot of caste/priest systems together and keeps the bills paid, that's for sure.

If believers are actually "honest" with themselves they'd see that they have, in real life, both success and failures. And invariably, they will always lean on the side of their personal successes, rather than their obvious failures. In this way it's quite self serving and goes to show how deceived believers can be when it comes to saving their own hides on performance based systems. And they will always totally neglect or diminish their failures, just like clockwork.

To me such performance schemes show how deceived self justifications really are and how wicked the heart can really be.

Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

A truthful servant of the Lord will see and perceive themselves as Jesus showed us: Unprofitable. This takes self justification performances off the table.

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Even if we've done ALL, we're still unprofitable servants.

 

[smaller]

how would they ever know THEY are really saved?

Scripture if full of verses confirming we can chose to leave God. I posted some - I don't intend to convince you by posting more.

the funny thing here is that you're saying you can never lose salvation - someone else could be worried for their soul because they left God for a number of years.

I think God can accept anything, any wrong belief or doctrine, but I think He cannot accept our denying Him and living as if He didn't exist.

Wondering

Peter spent a considerable amount of time with Jesus, even living face to face with him, daily. And STILL denied him 3 times. Predicted even, by Jesus.

And all the performance based salvation people will give every excuse they can muster such as, "Oh, Peter wasn't saved yet" or "Peter didn't have the Holy Spirit yet" or blah blah blah.

And they will invariably also say in their own hearts, just like Peter did, openly:

"Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee"

Peter didn't seem to know that in the above, he added lying to the equations as well or at a minimum, failing to live up to his own claims for personal performances.

Never say never.

 

[smaller]

Having believed for quite a long time I can observe, from practical experience, that a lot of people I know have, in the opinions of other believers, left the faith. That really isn't why they may seem to be "unbelievers" though. They have have left some religious organization that they didn't agree with or didn't care for the social atmosphere or what have you. OR they may have adhered to a performance based system where they failed and the other members pecked them out of the religious caste or what have you. Or they may actually be quite thoroughly deceived.

I always witness the same way to them. Jesus never leaves you or forsakes you. This I know from personal experience. It's not just empty words on the paper.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Never does really mean never, in reality. Jesus is probably the Only Person, as God, able to make such statements.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Bill,

In post no. 272 you say:

I say all of that to demonstrate: Many in the Church today profess, publicly what they do not believe in their heart and this verse is the assurance that they are baptized, certified and registered... but surprise at the Judgement, they are not saved.

Would this be:
Mathew 7:21? I think so.

Yes, that is the verse that this is built on in my heart. I must apologize because this seventieth year has not been kind to my mind nor to my body and my use of scripture is slipping drastically.

But, the OSAS people have the same problem as the above. So, just crying out Lord Lord is enough?

Here's why I have a problem with this concept - which I do not believe to be biblical.

Actually OSAS is scripturally correct but some of the add ons have, correctly, driven a large number of people away from the teaching and these add ons are frequently taught by Pastors that graduate from the modern day liberal colleges.


these charlatans do this with selective verses and disregard the Old Fashioned First Rule of hermeneutics; No verse can ever be correctly understood without the light of all scripture shinning upon it.

So I decide to become a Christian when I'm 20. When I'm 25 I feel like I've had enough of this God business and decide to ABANDON God.

Am I doing the will of the Father? By abandoning Him, His Son and the Holy Spirit?
I don't think so.

The Father sent Jesus to die on that bloody cross for us and it seems like He wouldn't take too kindly to our denying that. It's pleasant to think of God as a nice, loving God but He's also a just God.
Would not abandoning Him grieve the Holy Spirit? How would His justice work in that case?

You seem to have a very solid grasp on the truth and you appear to be logical and discerning in your quest. Are you saved? I wish I could, definitively answer that but it is not mine to open the Book of Life where the names of the saved were recorded before the worlds were created.

One thing to remember, God knew you would have this struggle before any of us were on and He knew before the end of your quest I don't but I will be praying for your successful end to this. But remember, God is always right where He has always been, waiting to carry you through everything.

Of course persons who believe as you do MUST come to the conclusion that if one falls away, he was never saved to begin with. Calvinists believe this too. If they didn't come to this conclusion, how would they ever know THEY are really saved?

Scripture if full of verses confirming we can chose to leave God. I posted some - I don't intend to convince you by posting more.

the funny thing here is that you're saying you can never lose salvation - someone else could be worried for their soul because they left God for a number of years.

I think God can accept anything, any wrong belief or doctrine, but I think He cannot accept our denying Him and living as if He didn't exist.

Lata...

Wondering

As I said, I will pray over you and already have.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The scheme of "performance standards" is the theological glue that holds a lot of caste/priest systems together and keeps the bills paid, that's for sure.

If believers are actually "honest" with themselves they'd see that they have, in real life, both success and failures. And invariably, they will always lean on the side of their personal successes, rather than their obvious failures. In this way it's quite self serving and goes to show how deceived believers can be when it comes to saving their own hides on performance based systems. And they will always totally neglect or diminish their failures, just like clockwork.

To me such performance schemes show how deceived self justifications really are and how wicked the heart can really be.

Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

A truthful servant of the Lord will see and perceive themselves as Jesus showed us: Unprofitable. This takes self justification performances off the table.

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Even if we've done ALL, we're still unprofitable servants.

That does enumerate the case for OSAS, very well.

 

[GodsGrace]

Bill,

You say:

One thing to remember, God knew you would have this struggle before any of us were on and He knew before the end of your quest I don't but I will be praying for your successful end to this.

Which struggle are you talking about??

Wondering