"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

[GodsGrace]

Peter spent a considerable amount of time with Jesus, even living face to face with him, daily. And STILL denied him 3 times. Predicted even, by Jesus.

And all the performance based salvation people will give every excuse they can muster such as, "Oh, Peter wasn't saved yet" or "Peter didn't have the Holy Spirit yet" or blah blah blah.

And they will invariably also say in their own hearts, just like Peter did, openly:

"Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee"

Peter didn't seem to know that in the above, he added lying to the equations as well or at a minimum, failing to live up to his own claims for personal performances.

Never say never.

You're addressing the above to me and I'm a courteous person and would like to answer you.

One problem:

I don't really understand what it is you're saying here.

W

 

[Roro1972]

Dude, You seem to have been over-looked. I just got my coffee and have not opened my Bible yet but Mark 16:16 is not a favorite verse for to many. I suggest you purchase a Hard Copy of the Nave's Topical Bible, mine cost me $25 but first, download e-Sword at e-sword.net and once installed, click Downloads in the tool bar, click Dictionaries and click Naves.

Now, there is one entire Sermon in this verse that, in these modern day conditions, has been completely ignore because if is divisive!

You see, this verse violates the ever popular, false, belief that if you profess with your mouth and you are dunked in the Baptistery, you are saved. This is where the anti-OSAS derive the idea of the License to Freely Sin from. Salvation is, indeed, almost unconditional but it is not so.

Case in point and I know folks are tired of hearing about it but it is so important. The Barna Group did a Survey of the catholic Church, not the Catholic but the catholic Church. It was a, completely, cross denominational (catholic) survey with nothing but the basics in question.

The survey included only members the pastor could certify as The Faithful (attending service no less than three times a week) and the test was double blind to afford the most honest answers. Less than two percent of those, Faithful, surveyed believed in the basics of Christianity, things like the Virgin Birth, Jesus dying on the cross for their sins and Jesus returning to rapture us out of here.

I say all of that to demonstrate: Many in the Church today profess, publicly what they do not believe in their heart and this verse is the assurance that they are baptized, certified and registered... but surprise at the Judgement, they are not saved.

th1b.taylor thanks; I get overlooked in most of my post im getting used to it but it gets old and eventually Ill go elsewhere for the answers I seek. I do thank you for the advice i will attempt to do what you said. I have no training am just trying to learn. Late in life I feel I got saved I strive to not sin but I know at times I fell. I keep trying.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Bill,

You say:

One thing to remember, God knew you would have this struggle before any of us were on and He knew before the end of your quest I don't but I will be praying for your successful end to this.

Which struggle are you talking about??

Wondering

Your struggle with truth.

 

[WIP]

First, I want to note that some of the discussions above have been getting very personal. I realize we can get frustrated when we are not getting our point across or not convincing our "opponent" to change his/her position but there is no reason or excuse for getting personal. Let Scripture do the talking and not our emotions.

Also, just a reminder that this is the A&T forum so please keep to the topic of the thread and remember to consider the forum guidelines when posting. We want to keep our discussion and study based on Scripture and not on personal opinion.

 

[th1b.taylor]

th1b.taylor thanks; I get overlooked in most of my post im getting used to it but it gets old and eventually Ill go elsewhere for the answers I seek. I do thank you for the advice i will attempt to do what you said. I have no training am just trying to learn. Late in life I feel I got saved I strive to not sin but I know at times I fell. I keep trying.

LOL! Welcome to the club. I was chasing the Nashville dream until 25 days before my surrender and conversion. I have, twice, since been accused of graduating some seminary by teaching professors, not true! I converted and I sold out, married the best looker in the Church, a Deacon's Daughter, and consumed the scriptures in any free moment.

If I can help, please do not hesitate to PM me and if needed, I have a couple of email address'.

 

[FreeGrace]

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Yes, and this eternal life is a gift of God, from Rom 6:23. And God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29.

[Sarcasm is unnecessary. WIP]

again
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.1 Corinthians 6:17

Being in Christ is eternal life.

Yes. Absolutely.

Being disconnected from Christ, is being disconnected from the eternal life that flows from Him to us.

[Please read the forum guidelines and avoid sarcasm. WIP]

One has to ignore or reject Paul's words in Eph 1;13,14,4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 in order to believe what you say.

Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee for God's own possession for the day of redemption.

When do you suppose you'll address each of these verses about the sealing with the Holy Spirit to prove that they aren't about eternal security?

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.John 15:2

Please cite whatever dictionary that defines "takes away" as "lose eternal life".

Unless you can show a scripture that says we continue to have eternal life, though we have been disconnected from Christ, then OSAS continues to be an unbiblical doctrine, that is man made.

[Please read forum guidelines. WIP]

So please hurry up and prove that Eph 1;13,14,4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 don't teach eternal security.

As well, please hurry up and show any verse that says a believer can be disconnected from Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have not read the 12 pages; this may have been posted if so I missed it; let know thanks.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
thoughts on this would help me out

Hello Roro,

Mark 16 and all other scriptures like it mean only one thing:
If we believe we will be saved and if we don't we will be damned.

[Please read the forum guidelines. Scripture must be provided to support what you write. WIP]

Don't feel ignored. Sometimes things move fast, it's happened to me. Repost if necessary.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, and this eternal life is a gift of God, from Rom 6:23. And God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29.

Any more questions?


Yes. Absolutely.


Nope. No believer can be disconnected from Christ. What verse does that word appear? Nowhere is where.

One has to ignore or reject Paul's words in Eph 1;13,14,4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 in order to believe what you say.

Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee for God's own possession for the day of redemption.

When do you suppose you'll address each of these verses about the sealing with the Holy Spirit to prove that they aren't about eternal security?


Please cite whatever dictionary that defines "takes away" as "lose eternal life".


The challenge and request is phony because no believer can be disconnected from Christ.

So please hurry up and prove that Eph 1;13,14,4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 don't teach eternal security.

As well, please hurry up and show any verse that says a believer can be disconnected from Christ.

FreeGrace,
Sorry for the interrupt.

I quoted several scripture verses for Bill Taylor up there somewhere. Post no. 271.
[Please read the forum guidelines. Scripture must be provided to support what you write in this forum. WIP]
Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,
Sorry for the interrupt.

I quoted several scripture verses for Bill Taylor up there somewhere. Post no. 271.
Hey, I believe in hermeneutics as much as the next guy - and if you take the entire N.T. as a whole without pulling out scripture here and there, you'd have to accept that salvation can be lost.

Nope. There are no verses that say such a thing. On the contrary, Scripture is quite clear about eternal security.

Eternal life is a gift of God, from Rom 6:23. God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29. If that doesn't seem clear enough, then consider what happens to every believer:

They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee to God's own possession, for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14. I don't know how it could be stated any more clear than that.

[Removed responses to deleted post. WIP]

Wondering

No need to wonder any longer. All believers are eternally secure.

 

[WIP]

Please remember, this forum is not for general discussion but requires that posters provide the Scripture reference that supports what they write. The purpose of this is to let Scripture do the talking and not our own personal opinions. Continued violation of the forum rules will result in stronger staff response.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope. There are no verses that say such a thing. On the contrary, Scripture is quite clear about eternal security.

Eternal life is a gift of God, from Rom 6:23. God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29. If that doesn't seem clear enough, then consider what happens to every believer:

They are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee to God's own possession, for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14. I don't know how it could be stated any more clear than that.

[Removed responses to deleted post. WIP]


No need to wonder any longer. All believers are eternally secure.

FreeGrace,

I have to leave this forum because apparently I don't understand the rules.
Let me just say this:
Don't let my name fool you.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

You're addressing the above to me and I'm a courteous person and would like to answer you.

One problem:

I don't really understand what it is you're saying here.

W

What do you think was said? What I said is that regarding faith or belief no one but God really knows what any person "really" believes or what their "real" faith consists of in any case.

Works salvation people can't even come up with a definitive list that puts them in or out, one way or another.

Anyone can do lip service to various postures.

Not as many are good at it.

Gratuitous citing:

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I was actually addressing your claim of believers denying Jesus, and referenced Peter as one example of many among examples with the disciples, in response to your sight, here:

I think God can accept anything, any wrong belief or doctrine, but I think He cannot accept our denying Him and living as if He didn't exist.

Which of course Peter did quite dramatically.

I've always sought the middle ground on this particular subject as there are more capable sights from the scriptures to view for any believers failures OTHER THAN the believer themselves. And a great case can be made that the deceptions of Satan are actually of Satan and not of the supposedly fallen believer....

and in reverse order, Satan or devils in any person can say they know Jesus and it would do them no good, such as here:

Luke 4:41
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

These subjects are actually much more interesting when all the parties are brought to bear.

Fortunately Jesus knows who is who.

 

[smaller]

That does enumerate the case for OSAS, very well.

Of course it does. I might think the other slant has a case, but there actually is not one single example in the N.T. of any believer who is shown to have lost their eternal salvation, so it's largely just dreamt up by the adherents.

When any one says "I believe" how can we really tell? Cut them open and have a look?

Likewise, anyone can be a poser.

I think Jesus never leaves anyone that calls upon Him just like JESUS said. What the persons do are a whole nuther matter. Salvation really isn't that fickle.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

I might even add my own sight "whether anyone likes it or not."

 

[Roro1972]

LOL! Welcome to the club. I was chasing the Nashville dream until 25 days before my surrender and conversion. I have, twice, since been accused of graduating some seminary by teaching professors, not true! I converted and I sold out, married the best looker in the Church, a Deacon's Daughter, and consumed the scriptures in any free moment.

If I can help, please do not hesitate to PM me and if needed, I have a couple of email address'.

Back in the day did you ever meet Lonnie Mack I see him around town often Im not far from Nashville.Thanks for your advice and help. My beliefs come from me reading the Bible and how I understand it. There are parts I do not understand of course.I find some times I am right and other times I am wrong. I always check peoples comments I read. I dont claim to be well versed in the Bible even though I have read it twice straight through and many chapters several times. I am still in the learning phase always searching for the correct information.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Back in the day did you ever meet Lonnie Mack I see him around town often Im not far from Nashville.Thanks for your advice and help. My beliefs come from me reading the Bible and how I understand it. There are parts I do not understand of course.I find some times I am right and other times I am wrong. I always check peoples comments I read. I dont claim to be well versed in the Bible even though I have read it twice straight through and many chapters several times. I am still in the learning phase always searching for the correct information.

No, I've heard the name but I tried to get the finances fro, here in Texas, the same way Clint Black did. But it deid not come for 25 years and I refused the entire deal.

 

[JLB]

Yes, and this eternal life is a gift of God, from Rom 6:23. And God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29.

The gift of God is eternal life, not the gifts of God are eternal life.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Romans 6:23

Your theory has been refuted, as Romans 11:29 does not contain the words "eternal life".

The context of Romans 11, if fact teaches that people can in deed be removed from covenant relationship with the Lord, as Jesus plainly says - Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:20-21

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

People can indeed be removed from of Jesus.

• No where in this verse is salvation or eternal life mentioned.

• The context: there were those that were cut of from God as branches. Romans 11:19-22, John 15:6

• The meaning of the word irrevocable: not repentant of, unregretted Strong's G278

• The overwhelming clarity of the other scriptures that teach and warn God's people of not inheriting the kingdom of God, through apostasy or practicing the works of the flesh, or taking the mark of the beast.

JLB

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace,

I have to leave this forum because apparently I don't understand the rules.
Let me just say this:
Don't let my name fool you.

Wondering

You will be missed if you leave.


God bless you.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The gift of God is eternal life, not the gifts of God are eternal life.

Sure. And Paul ALSO described justification as a gift in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. So when one considers ALL that Paul described as gifts of God, we have BOTH justification AND eternal life.

BOTH of them are gifts of God and BOTH of them are irrevocable.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Romans 6:23

That's one of the gifts of God referenced in Rom 11:29.

But justification is also described as a gift in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. When BOTH are considered, then we have giftS of God that are irrevocable: justification AND eternal life.

Your theory has been refuted, as Romans 11:29 does not contain the words "eternal life".

How is that a refutation? It's just an irrelevant statement, since Paul previously described both justification and eternal life as gifts.

I suggest consulting a dictionary on the meaning of refutation. You've not come close to a refutation. All that has been given is your opinions.

[QUTOE]The context of Romans 11, if fact teaches that people can in deed be removed from covenant relationship with the Lord, as Jesus plainly says - Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:20-21[/QUOTE]
So, until you can prove from the whole counsel of God that to be "broken off" means specifically loss of etrnal life, you have no point, no refutation, no nothing.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

So please prove that this verse is about loss of eternal life. That is your opinion of the verse. Prove it.

I've proven from all of the context of Romans that BOTH justification and eternal life are gifts of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable.

People can indeed be removed from of Jesus.

You've failed to prove your opinions.

 

[WIP]

What do you think was said? What I said is that regarding faith or belief no one but God really knows what any person "really" believes or what their "real" faith consists of in any case.

Works salvation people can't even come up with a definitive list that puts them in or out, one way or another.

Anyone can do lip service to various postures.

Not as many are good at it.

Gratuitous citing:

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I was actually addressing your claim of believers denying Jesus, and referenced Peter as one example of many among examples with the disciples, in response to your sight, here:


Which of course Peter did quite dramatically.

I've always sought the middle ground on this particular subject as there are more capable sights from the scriptures to view for any believers failures OTHER THAN the believer themselves. And a great case can be made that the deceptions of Satan are actually of Satan and not of the supposedly fallen believer....

and in reverse order, Satan or devils in any person can say they know Jesus and it would do them no good, such as here:

Luke 4:41
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

These subjects are actually much more interesting when all the parties are brought to bear.

Fortunately Jesus knows who is who.

Just a thought about this. I submit that there is a difference between flat out rejecting Jesus and denying knowledge of Him to others. In Peter's case, I do not believe he rejected the Savior in his heart although he did deny knowing Him. Consider his reaction to his denying knowing Jesus as recorded in Matthew's gospel.

Now Peter sat outside in the courtyard. And a servant girl came to him, saying, “You also were with Jesus of Galilee.” But he denied it before them all, saying, “I do not know what you are saying.” And when he had gone out to the gateway, another girl saw him and said to those who were there, “This fellow also was with Jesus of Nazareth.” But again he denied with an oath, “I do not know the Man!” And a little later those who stood by came up and said to Peter, “Surely you also are one of them, for your speech betrays you.” Then he began to curse and swear, saying, “I do not know the Man!” Immediately a rooster crowed. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” So he went out and wept bitterly. Matthew 26:69-75 NKJV

I believe he wept bitterly because he realized what he had done and like the prodigal son he was lost and then found again. His sinful act was not unforgivable.

 

[smaller]

Just a thought about this. I submit that there is a difference between flat out rejecting Jesus and denying knowledge of Him to others. In Peter's case, I do not believe he rejected the Savior in his heart although he did deny knowing Him. Consider his reaction to his denying knowing Jesus as recorded in Matthew's gospel.

I've heard just about every 'excuse' there is for Peter. Fact is Peter denied Jesus at the critical moment and it couldn't have went down any other way, because Jesus said so. Peter was in short, pawned by deception/the deceiver, internally, upon his mind. It's not like this was a new phenomena. Every sinner and every fallen believer is likewise deceived. 1 John 3:8 demands that the devil comes into the theological equations for any deceptions/sins.

I believe Peter was 'internally deceived' by Satan in that event. The fact that Jesus foretold that Peter would do it just adds more flavor to Jesus knowing what the "enemy" will do before it's done.

I believe he wept bitterly because he realized what he had done and like the prodigal son he was lost and then found again. His sinful act was not unforgivable.

There is zero reason for me to see only Peter in these matters. Denial of the Lord is a common tactic of the enemy of our soul and that activity does transpire in our flesh inclusive of mind/heart whether we like it or not.

I am very cognizant of this "internal deception" of another party when I share to RESTORE believers who have been likewise internally deceived.

There really is more going on in these matters under the surface, than just the believer.

We are all QUITE actively hunted and are enemies of the deceiver.

The last thing on my mind is to condemn the fallen believer when there are other directions to look to.

I don't think Jesus ever leaves any believer, whether they like it or not OR whether they deny Him or not.

Jesus is just as much about the business of judging our enemies as well. So, the fallen believers, if nothing else, serves to that end. I can still see our Savior really 'saving' them regardless.