"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

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There seems to be something about Jesus' Commands that makes people irresistibly defy them.

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Some will read the above, and avoid judgment and condemnation. And, others can read the same thing and see that there is both judgment and condemnation, and leap headlong into it, not considering the problems they brought into themselves in the process.

It can be a very hard thing to unwrap from that stranglehold. Nearly impossible, imho. Just like Haman. Build a gallows for somebody else and get hung yourself at the end.

 

[FreeGrace]

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me...

I always took that to hint at predestination.

Even though the context doesn't suggest that?

It does speak to omniscience, relationship and obedience.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think we can use discernment. I do believe that there are false conversions.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Romans 8:28 hints at predestination as well. I just interpret it as...Christ knows His sheep, even before we hear His voice.

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[smaller]

I don't base scriptural understandings on NDE's, BUT, if you read the accounts, the people who have them are ALWAYS led to examine their own failures to LOVE and regret such actions, deeply, when they come back. They are seldom, if ever, shown the failures of others.

One of my grandpa's was never an openly religious man. Yeah, they "did church" all the time, but I never once, in 20 some years ever heard him mention Jesus or God in everyday life. But, one day, he wound up in the hospital and nearly died. When he recovered and got out, he never shut up about God. It was God bless you every other sentence.

Funny how a brush with death affects people's sights.

Human nature seems to dictate that the deeper the hole, the more people will gather around the edges, to peer down into it. Science discovers (supposedly) a black hole and they can't run fast enough to examine it.

I was very fortunate, early in my believing life, to have had some sound scriptural advice. My brother in faith told me that whatever I "think" I might see in His Words was really a reflection of my own heart.

Hebrews 4:12

It was invaluable insight.

 

[Douglas Summers]

When I was attending Bible College, a Professor made this statement. "If anyone says that they believe in Jesus, they are saved." Later, I came across this portion of Scripture that made me question that statement. What do you think?

John 2:23 " Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."

Another passage of Scripture that goes along with my thinking is,
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

At one time in the early years of my Salvation, I was involved in an evangelistic crusade of Billy Graham. It was probably around 1975. I was one of those who would counsel those who came forward for Salvation. Later, I became aware of a few of those who came forward to "believe", their life did not demonstrate a Christian lifestyle.

In the years following, these false professions really bothered me until I came across these two Scriptures and also,

Matthew 13:18 "Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

Mat 13:19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandethitnot, then cometh the wickedone,and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

Mat 13:21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Mat 13:22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mat 13:23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandethit;which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

As a result of studying these three Scripture portions, and questions in my mind about why these professions didn't last, it made sense to me and as a result, I don't just accept a persons testimony of Salvation until I know a little more about the person. I feel that way because as I come to know this person, if I see that he/she might fall into one of the "seed" stories, I hope to lead this person to the Truth.

The are two simple Scriptures that answers that question (John 12: 42-43) & (Luke 12: 8-9) To the Church (body of Christ) inheritance as Son's and heirs to the throne is a birthright. Those who hear the Gospel of God in Jesus The Christ and know the way to Salvation and trample it under foot are like Esau (who for one morsel of food sold his birthright) For when afterwards he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected and found no place of redemption, though he sought it carefully with tears. (Heb. 12: 16-17).

 

[LovethroughDove]

LTD,
All of this is used to describe the condition, not oif the pump but, none the less, the heart of man.

Since we are discussing the parable of the sower, I believe Jesus is showing the different heart conditions. He even says in the same parable in Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

I feel he is speaking about a heart that really wants the truth, not a heart that already has the truth. But, I could be wrong on this.

 

[smaller]

Those who hear the Gospel of God in Jesus The Christ and know the way to Salvation and trample it under foot are like Esau (who for one morsel of food sold his birthright) For when afterwards he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected and found no place of redemption, though he sought it carefully with tears. (Heb. 12: 16-17).

God hated Esau before he was even born and did anything. It wouldn't have mattered what Esau did later.

Romans 9:
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Go figure that one out. These are the very "meaty" scriptural subjects. Such good stuff.

IF for example, Esau prayed, even sought the son of promise/Isaac's blessings with tears (seeking redemption!) WHY was it not honored?

Paul actually takes us, individually, step by step into understanding this matter, PERSONALLY.

It's a delightful scriptural puzzle. Just wonderful, really. To see the Gospel come alive in the examples of Esau/Jacob. Beautiful.

 

[smaller]

Since we are discussing the parable of the sower, I believe Jesus is showing the different heart conditions. He even says in the same parable in Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

I feel he is speaking about a heart that really wants the truth, not a heart that already has the truth. But, I could be wrong on this.

In Mark 4:15-20 it's actually the same person(s), from start to finish. Same with the other seed parables.

How so? Look at the "connecting verbiage" employed, and you might see it. Where you see "and these are they" it is referring to the prior example.

14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

When Jesus advised that we will LIVE by Every Word of God, we are NOT exempt from a single Word of His. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4.

It is MANDATORY to go through EACH STEP of the above. No one goes directly from hearing the Word into full blown fruit. It has never happened. Not once. His Seed is planted in an adversarial state, and grows, and prospers from there.

HE/ THE SEED NEVER DIES. It's not even possible. Nor is it EVER possible for the GROUND to save itself. That can't happen either. HE never fails to GROW to the final product, which product and promise is in Phil. 3:21.

ALL the ground where the seed grows is in fact VILE. Equally vile of all of us, in the flesh. There is no 'better vile/contrary flesh.' That never happens either. At the end, it's just so much dried dust.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think we can use discernment. I do believe that there are false conversions.

The Bible speaks of false brothers, but never false conversion. One is either converted or not.

2 Cor 11:26 and Gal 2:4 (NIV)

 

[smaller]

The Bible speaks of false brothers, but never false conversion. One is either converted or not.

2 Cor 11:26 and Gal 2:4 (NIV)

That's always a bit simplistic. There are always two voices and two workings in every believer. One of contrary to the Spirit FLESH voice, and one of contrary to the flesh Spirit Voice.

They are not the same. We are actually attached to our own "false brother" called contrary to the Spirit FLESH.

Trying to resolve this contrary state isn't even possible. There is only One Winner in the end and it will never be the contrary flesh or any working thereof of/in any believer.

It simply can not happen. It's only the 'flesh' that seeks to save it's own hide when in fact it's contrary and doomed to fail by death, because of sin therein. It does tend to go down screaming however, whenever this is observed.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The voice of the flesh will always claim it is not contrary to the Spirit and it is saved, when in fact, it's simply CONTRARY to the Spirit, and doomed to DIE. It will never submit, because it CAN'T.

The FLESH can claim "I believe" all the day long. It's STILL contrary to the Spirit, and vile, exactly as Paul showed us with his own fleshly lusts/temptations/evil present/indwelling sin.

It's just a goner and a non-starter to try to bail out the flesh under the guise of "I believe." The flesh is a liar, contrary to the Spirit. IT can not admit what it really is. It will try to "soft peddle" itself past the obvious under the term "old man" or "Adamic nature" or "carnal nature" or any number of other terms that believers use to EXCUSE this contrariness.

Nevertheless, it's still CONTRARY no matter what it's claims are.

This is also why we are only saved by Grace, through faith in Christ. The contrary won't be moving on however. Nor can it save itself.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Since we are discussing the parable of the sower, I believe Jesus is showing the different heart conditions. He even says in the same parable in Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

I feel he is speaking about a heart that really wants the truth, not a heart that already has the truth. But, I could be wrong on this.

In Romans 2:15 we find that God has written His Law on the hearts of all men. There are quite a few other passage to the same effect.

 

[Chopper]

I guess a greater study should be done on the difference between faith and belief, but just because someone says they believe they are saved does not make it so, as is evidenced by their fruit. Many people that are members of various churches may say they are saved yet are not, however, it is not up to use to make that distinction. That is between them and God.

Quite frankly, because it is between the individual and God, it really makes no nevermind what we think about the whole process. God knows who is saved and who is not. The only way we know for sure is the knowledge that is imparted to use by the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit we would not be aware of any of it.

Personally I feel that I have a responsibility, because I've been reconciled, to help all others to be reconciled. Perhaps it's because I have as one of my gifts a call to evangelize. I have found that the Holy Spirit will alert me to someone who is not really saved but claims to be. That's just me.

 

[Chopper]

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me...

I always took that to hint at predestination.

It is!

 

[Chopper]

Some people can't seem to resist figuring out ways that our Savior, WON'T.

It's one thing to question and test ourselves. It's quite another to try to do that to another believer. We are taught not to lay stumbling blocks tho.

Leviticus 19:14
Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the Lord.

Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

So, are you saying that if you believe that someone who professes to be saved and you feel they are not, we should leave them alone?

 

[FreeGrace]

That's always a bit simplistic. There are always two voices and two workings in every believer. One of contrary to the Spirit FLESH voice, and one of contrary to the flesh Spirit Voice.

They are not the same. We are actually attached to our own "false brother" called contrary to the Spirit FLESH.

Trying to resolve this contrary state isn't even possible. There is only One Winner in the end and it will never be the contrary flesh or any working thereof of/in any believer.

It simply can not happen. It's only the 'flesh' that seeks to save it's own hide when in fact it's contrary and doomed to fail by death, because of sin therein. It does tend to go down screaming however, whenever this is observed.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The voice of the flesh will always claim it is not contrary to the Spirit and it is saved, when in fact, it's simply CONTRARY to the Spirit, and doomed to DIE. It will never submit, because it CAN'T.

The FLESH can claim "I believe" all the day long. It's STILL contrary to the Spirit, and vile, exactly as Paul showed us with his own fleshly lusts/temptations/evil present/indwelling sin.

It's just a goner and a non-starter to try to bail out the flesh under the guise of "I believe." The flesh is a liar, contrary to the Spirit. IT can not admit what it really is. It will try to "soft peddle" itself past the obvious under the term "old man" or "Adamic nature" or "carnal nature" or any number of other terms that believers use to EXCUSE this contrariness.

Nevertheless, it's still CONTRARY no matter what it's claims are.

This is also why we are only saved by Grace, through faith in Christ. The contrary won't be moving on however. Nor can it save itself.

None of your posts about the "flesh" have ever made any sense. No one thinks they are going to save their "flesh" anyway. So your point is lost on that fact.

What is saved is our immaterial self, not our material self. Is that clear?

 

[WIP]

Let's remember which forum this is and consider the forum rules, please.

 

[smaller]

So, are you saying that if you believe that someone who professes to be saved and you feel they are not, we should leave them alone?

Nah. Just pointed to the frailties of claiming "salvation" under the "I believe" flag to that which is "contrary" to the Spirit, that all believers factually have and for which "belief" doesn't apply, and can't.

That's what makes christian theology so interesting. Blanket positions are easily poked full of holes.

For example, we know that unbelievers are blinded in their minds by the god of this world (NOT THEMSELVES.) 2 Cor. 4:4. Paul also shows us that the witness of Christ is to TURN people from Satan's power, unto God. Acts 26:18

So, when we do witness Christ, we might recognize we are witnessing to TWO different parties. One might believe but perhaps can't because of the other party. The other might claim to believe, and is in fact lying.

It makes for an interesting sight, don't it?

We ain't trying to "save them both." Only ONE. IF our witness is TRUE, God in Christ often honors this, as it is His Way. AND, the witness will get the feature added bonus of seeing the reality of our enemy upon that person, if not.

We are under NO obligation to condemn the blinded party, the captives of Satan. We have every obligation to condemn Satan. This is where people who do witness, utterly fail by a lack of Spiritual "insight."

The SERVE of Christ can be improved on from our end, by a simple adjustment in Spiritual eyesight.

When Jesus for example, spoke to Peter and condemned Satan in PETER in the next breath, He LOVED ONE and HATED and REBUKED the other, both for the GOOD of Peter and the revealing and damnation of the intruder into Peter's heart.

We also might learn to understand ourselves better with the same sights.

 

[smaller]

None of your posts about the "flesh" have ever made any sense. No one thinks they are going to save their "flesh" anyway. So your point is lost on that fact.

I'm pointing out my dear friend, that the flesh is and remains contrary to the Spirit and OSAS doesn't apply to what is contrary, period, for any reason. Brush it off if you will. The contrariness remains to be observed, even PINpointed " to be with us. Gal. 5:17

What is saved is our immaterial self, not our material self. Is that clear?

That's pretty funny. I don't recall ever hearing the call of the Gospel to "save your {immaterial} self," but it's an interesting angle. Credit for creativity.

 

[Corn Pop]

My brother tried this the other week, I told him he needs to believe and he said ok I believe then so now im all good, and I said but you dont believe, and he said who are you to judge. Lol.

But I know him to well, hes not a believer, I dont think someone can just say quickly I believe then continue instantly to enjoy sinning as normal.