"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

[Christ_empowered]

OK...this is just my story, but...first I believed, then Christ gradually changed me so I could understand Him better and do better. This is why I'm weird about saying "yeah, I got saved," even though I live in The Bible Belt, where "getting saved" is a part of the culture...

...I think of my own salvation as an ongoing process, one that probably started before I said my Sinner's Prayer (although saying the Sinner's Prayer seems to have kicked things into high gear).

 

[Corn Pop]

I think its just the heart. The Most High knows the heart. I think thats where saved is. Sinning flesh but a repenting heart and mind.

What did Paul say I do what I dont want to do, but inside himself he repented and tried to focus as best he could.

 

[Christ_empowered]

That's true...I also think truly born again/saved people bear fruit at some point during their walk with The Lord. I mean, I'm not looking to judge people, but I think that if one was in doubt (like with a minister or somebody like that), you could look at the fruit (or lack thereof) in their lives.

 

[ezrider]

So, are you saying that if you believe that someone who professes to be saved and you feel they are not, we should leave them alone?

I am not going to give you a yes or no answer to this, but I am curious what the following scriptures mean to you in light of your question.

Micah 4:3-5
And he shall judge among many people,
and rebuke strong nations afar off;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up a sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more.
But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree;
and none shall make them afraid:
for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
For all people will walk every one in the name of his god,
and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

 

[smaller]

A brother in the Lord that I know witnessed to a street drunk. The drunk told him, "you guys never read the white, only the black." The brother didn't understand what he meant, as he kept repeating it. He finally asked him what he was talking about. The drunk took the bible, pointed to the print in black, and then the white on the page, and said, LOOK, there's more white in this Bible than black!

 

[ezrider]

Personally I feel that I have a responsibility, because I've been reconciled, to help all others to be reconciled. Perhaps it's because I have as one of my gifts a call to evangelize. I have found that the Holy Spirit will alert me to someone who is not really saved but claims to be. That's just me.

I really hate to ask such a simply question, but in context with your OP, what does it mean to be saved? What is it we are saved from?

 

[Douglas Summers]

God hated Esau before he was even born and did anything. It wouldn't have mattered what Esau did later.

Romans 9:
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Go figure that one out. These are the very "meaty" scriptural subjects. Such good stuff.

IF for example, Esau prayed, even sought the son of promise/Isaac's blessings with tears (seeking redemption!) WHY was it not honored?

Paul actually takes us, individually, step by step into understanding this matter, PERSONALLY.

It's a delightful scriptural puzzle. Just wonderful, really. To see the Gospel come alive in the examples of Esau/Jacob. Beautiful.

There is no such teaching where God has personally caused a man to fail for His own purpose. God always gives ALL men the opportunity to repent. Those that perished in the flood, The Pharaoh,Esau, Judas. God would not that ANY man should perish (2 Pet. 3:9).. Even those that were vessels of wrath, God has endured with long suffering the vessels of wrath (time to repent) before He would show that wrath. God is not partial to man as He is, our even to His good works.(Rom. 9:21-24) A righteous man before God is one who knows he is a vessel of wrath..(we all are), but who looks to God for mercy and grace. Even though he himself knows that he is unworthy. Jesus even gave Judas time to repent, though he was used by Satin. Christ calls him friend as he is betrayed by Judas, still reaching out to Judas.(Matt. 26: 50) God hardened Pharaoh's heart to show His power. But God did not harden His heart for the rest of His life for He would not that any man would perish

 

[LovethroughDove]

Since we are discussing the parable of the sower, I believe Jesus is showing the different heart conditions. He even says in the same parable in Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

I feel he is speaking about a heart that really wants the truth, not a heart that already has the truth. But, I could be wrong on this.

I'm going to clarify what I said in this last statement. This was in reference to the "good soil" people.

 

[smaller]

There is no such teaching where God has personally caused a man to fail for His own purpose. God always gives ALL men the opportunity to repent.

A lot of forms of christian theology present God in Christ as a modified form of business. In terms of "opportunity" for example. Or "chance" as in "now is your chance." Take advantage of this "deal" today. "Do something for God." etc etc.

Personally I have serious doubts about the legitimacy of most of these forms of theology.

Scripture tells us that God made the wicked to do evil and to destroy them.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

He also created a system where a liar can say "I believe" and that will not be true by (non)virtue of the liar speaking, "I believe."

A righteous man before God is one who knows he is a vessel of wrath

Ah, now we are perhaps getting much closer to some scriptural facts! Very good!

Yes, God did hate Esau, even before Esau did anything good or evil. And, conversely, God loved Jacob, before Jacob did anything good or evil. Just as Paul noted in the prior Romans 9 citing. And yes, God does raise up evil and adversity, precisely to "show His Power" over same.

I have sensed a lot of great spiritual truthful observations in your posts. And, in this particular matter you are what I might say, teetering at the edge when you say "A righteous man KNOWS he is a vessel of WRATH." That is quite nearly brilliant, but, allow me to apply some scripture to this matter and maybe we both can observe what's really going on in these matters?

God's children are not the wicked. Paul for example was not wicked nor was Paul evil. Paul was, for no uncertain fact, called of God, directly, and given "revelation" or REVEALING knowledge.

What did Paul reveal? His writings are undoubtedly, beyond any dispute, direct teachings from Christ Himself, AFTER Christ's resurrection. That's quite a startling sight in itself. He wasn't the only man to have been called out in such a fashion. The two disciples on the road to Emmaus had similar engagements. So did John. So did Peter.

With Paul, in Romans, which is probably the most brilliant piece of scriptural analysis ever penned, Paul takes us "inside" of himself. He shows us how, by the law, that indwelling sin in his flesh reacted in adversarial fashions when he engaged the law to not covet/lust. Then what happened? He coveted/lusted. Romans 7:7-13. Paul uses this as his basis of understanding the law. That when the law comes, resistance to the law transpired in his mind. So, even though Paul "served" the law in his MIND, his "flesh" served the law of SIN.

This is a great paradox. The question is WHY does this paradox exist?

How is it that Paul can be both a child of God, AND a sinner? This question has been the vexation of Christianity and all forms of christian theology for quite some time.

Paul has in fact answered this, OPENLY. We just can not see it.

Paul described, in Romans, particularly vs. 18-24, that in the "lump" of "me" was not just Paul, but in fact TWO VESSELS. One to receive MERCY from God, and the other to be tolerated, but eventually DESTROYED.

And Paul reveals this exact state of affairs upon himself, here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Right there, in plain and open sight we can see the TWO VESSELS. Paul and the messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul.

So, I might observe that what can and did apply to Paul on the "everything is good and beautiful" side of God's Words fully applied.

YET, to the messenger of Satan in his flesh, NO GOOD THING would apply from God's Good/Perfect side of the ledgers.

The fact that these 'two' vessels existed in "Saul" prior to salvation is also shown by Paul, in his observations about the unbelievers. They are "blinded" in their minds by the "god of this world." There, again, are the TWO vessels. The person and the 'god of this world' in their minds. Jesus showed this same thing to Paul again, in Acts 26:18, where his COMMAND from Jesus was to TURN PEOPLE from the power of Satan. Again, TWO vessels, the person, and the power of Satan, the blinding force, upon these peoples lives.

So, you say that Paul was a vessel of dishonor? I would merely turn you one notch over and say that Paul was not, but the messenger of Satan in his flesh WAS that vessel of dishonor, and Paul, LIGHTENED by the Word of God Himself, was TURNED away from that power, but still retained that resistor in his own flesh, JUST AS WE ALL DO.

So, I believe Jesus is my Savior. Beyond any doubt. But the vessel of dishonor in my own flesh DOESN'T. I also believe that Jesus will DESTROY the vessel of dishonor IN MY OWN FLESH and bring His Wrath upon same, should I still be here on THAT DAY of Wrath.

IF we want to know "how" this all transpired, how that "vessel" of dishonor in implanted into not only our flesh, but the flesh of ALL people, we simply turn to Mark 4:15 to see the fact that where the Word is sown, Satan "follows" and "enters" into the heart/flesh to steal, to deceive, to destroy, and eventually to KILL our flesh. And that is exactly what Satan was made to do, by GOD no less.

God did not fate any of us as believers to hang around permanently here in this environment to start with. We are factually planted in weakness, dishonor, corruption and in a natural body that is bound for DEATH and ETERNAL RELEASE->into the Final Product which is the PERFECTED BODY OF CHRIST Himself. 1 Cor. 15:42-49

Did God then hate Esau? Yes. Esau is (not the first) an "external showing" in the natural of a SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE, representative of the FLESH MAN, just as Ishmael is. There is a first man to which God holds NO personal regard. And there is a LAST MAN upon whom God will have MERCY in the Body of Christ.

First/Last. Elder/Younger. Our "natural" body serves to the purposes of forming the LAST BODY.

..(we all are), but who looks to God for mercy and grace. Even though he himself knows that he is unworthy. Jesus even gave Judas time to repent, though he was used by Satin. Christ calls him friend as he is betrayed by Judas, still reaching out to Judas.(Matt. 26: 50) God hardened Pharaoh's heart to show His power. But God did not harden His heart for the rest of His life for He would not that any man would perish

Satan undoubted entered INTO Judas. Luke 22:3. So again, it's basically impossible to see JUST JUDAS. It's also impossible to make Satan in Judas repent.

In Judas, like Paul described above, we again see how many vessels?

TWO.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm pointing out my dear friend, that the flesh is and remains contrary to the Spirit and OSAS doesn't apply to what is contrary, period, for any reason.

Which is exactly my point: the flesh is immaterial to the doctrine of OSAS. I still have no idea why you keep bringing up the flesh, as if many think that the flesh is material to one's salvation.

Brush it off if you will. The contrariness remains to be observed, even PINpointed " to be with us. Gal. 5:17

So, le'ts look at the verse:
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

OK, I don't see anything here that relates to salvation. Paul is noting that all believers have an internal conflict between 2 natures.

What does this verse say to you?

And how does it relate to the flesh and salvation?

 

[FreeGrace]

My brother tried this the other week, I told him he needs to believe and he said ok I believe then so now im all good, and I said but you dont believe, and he said who are you to judge. Lol.

But I know him to well, hes not a believer, I dont think someone can just say quickly I believe then continue instantly to enjoy sinning as normal.

But what did you tell him that he must believe?

The issue never has been saying "I believe". The issue has always been WHAT it is that one believes. The words "I believe" are not magic, or have any saving power.

All saving power is found in the Biblical object of saving faith; Jesus Christ, the Son of God. For example, some who believe that Jesus was a good teacher but not Deity are not saved, period. Even though they may say "I believe in Jesus" as a good teacher, that won't save them.

 

[smaller]

Which is exactly my point: the flesh is immaterial to the doctrine of OSAS.

That's why the doctrine is phony. It takes ZERO accounting for the factual contrariness, currently, of the flesh. And yes, this is real factual existing scriptural contrariness. OSAS is a futile attempt to overlook this side of the ledgers of scriptural reality.

Nevertheless I TOTALLY agree with the end game sight of OSAS. I just have issues with it's "inbetween" position posturing as "current" reality because it's NOT.

I still have no idea why you keep bringing up the flesh, as if many think that the flesh is material to one's salvation.

We all have to deal with contention which stems from the contrary portions depicted in the scriptures.

I've said this to you before, and will say it again. There are TWO separate fates that can be viewed with Paul as an example. Here is the "example" that he gave us:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Now, let's see if you can follow what this means.

It means that PAUL was OSAS. It also means that the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh is slated for no uncertain fact to burn in hell.

We can't cover the entirety of ourselves as believers with OSAS because that blanket doesn't fit the whole body. There is an opposite side of the coin to view. And Paul acknowledges this.

OSAS does not extend to anyone but a believer. But that is not ALL a believer "presently" consists of.

In the end, I agree with you. There will be NO RED. But to say OSAS applies in the NOW to the entirety of the believer isn't and can not possibly be TRUE or TRUTHFUL.

So, le'ts look at the verse:
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

OK, I don't see anything here that relates to salvation. Paul is noting that all believers have an internal conflict between 2 natures.

What does this verse say to you?

It means that there is no way to snug the blanket of OSAS over the contrary flesh. Plain and simple.

And how does it relate to the flesh and salvation?

IF you read how Paul described himself AND the status of his own contrary flesh and the OCCUPANT of that flesh, you'll see that OSAS applied to Paul and ETERNAL DAMNATION and WRATH will apply to the messenger of Satan in his own flesh.

That's why OSAS, in the now, is somewhat futile. It's just not that simple.

 

[ezra]

[

That's why the doctrine is phony. It takes ZERO accounting for the factual contrariness, currently, of the flesh. And yes, this is real factual existing scriptural contrariness. OSAS is a futile attempt to overlook this side of the ledgers of scriptural reality.

no its not entirely as phony as you think. the doctrine of eternal security is very biblical. if taught in the right way according to scriptures. the problem with the osas doctrine is not in scripture but those who use it in a manner .that is not Bible based there are those who will say it gives one a license to stay in sin.. then you have those who truly live it. it is a very controversial subject in the Church . the way i believe is those who are truly saved will stay with it. those who walk away and never return was never saved
1 John 2:19New King James Version (NKJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. its not so much the teaching as the person using it as a excuse

 

[LovethroughDove]

But what did you tell him that he must believe?

The issue never has been saying "I believe". The issue has always been WHAT it is that one believes. The words "I believe" are not magic, or have any saving power.

All saving power is found in the Biblical object of saving faith; Jesus Christ, the Son of God. For example, some who believe that Jesus was a good teacher but not Deity are not saved, period. Even though they may say "I believe in Jesus" as a good teacher, that won't save them.

I wish we could give "likes" in this section, cause I would! Also, if you don't believe right........his Word won't take root in your soul. You take everything he says with GREAT IMPORTANCE if you know exactly who he is.

 

[JLB]

It means that PAUL was OSAS. It also means that the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh is slated for no uncertain fact to burn in hell.

No such scripture as a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.


JLB

 

[JLB]

those who walk away and never return was never saved

Walk away from ????

I

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm leaning towards OSAS because I'm also leaning towards at least a couple points of TULIP. Didn't God harden Pharaoh's heart so He could achieve His own ends? Weren't the Israelites oppressed any number of times by wicked heathens...again to suit His own purposes?

I do not think OSAS in the sense that one can say a prayer and you're saved forever. I'm leaning towards OSAS in the sense that God knows those who are His and salvation is His work in our/their lives.

 

[smaller]

[

no its not entirely as phony as you think. the doctrine of eternal security is very biblical. if taught in the right way according to scriptures.

There is a distinct difference between the Holy and the profane, assuredly. And that "difference" is to be "marked" in the sanctuary, the temple, our body.

We can not possibly, legitimately drag the vain, contrary body into the realm of the Holy. It doesn't work. Never will.

What we will find, concerning the flesh body is this. It is planted in weakness, dishonor, corruption. 1 Cor. 15:42-49. We will find it vile. Phil. 3:21. We will find sin indwelling it. Romans 7:17-21. We will find the body subject to lusts/temptations. Gal. 4:14, Romans 7:7-13. We will find it contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. We will find it with evil present, Romans 7:21. BECAUSE of the very real conditions we have "in the body."

Can we say that any of these things are HOLY? Never. Saved? Never. By failing to mark out these conditions, to claim them holy, to lie and say it's not true or truthful doesn't do any of us any favors as a Spiritual Body. It just makes the majority of us into hypocritical liars. I happen to utterly detest having to take either or both of those "seats" as they simply are NOT GODLY.

So, regarding any "doctrine" does it do the condition of the body ANY good to believe any particular slant? No. It's actually rather unimportant if we can not be TRUTHFUL. Do we think our vile body, flesh contrary to the Spirit, evil present with us gives TWO HOOTS about the Trinity or that understanding the Trinity makes any of these factual conditions depart the body? No.

If any theological understandings can't be built on TRUTH, then the foundation is rotten all the way to the top. So, we essentially start "temple building" on a foundation of "dust and ashes." And this is representative of the condition of our body, in the sight of the Spirit.

And I might add that the contrary to the Spirit vile flesh including ALL it is subject to will never TAKE these terms. It is, in short, a bucking kicking mess. If we observe the status of the churches, this sight is called "a house of bickering flesh and divisions."

This can not change, til God Himself changes us.

So, what do we say of these matters? I might observe that it is critical to be 'truthful' to be "in Truth."

the problem with the osas doctrine is not in scripture but those who use it in a manner .that is not Bible based there are those who will say it gives one a license to stay in sin.

The body of no one will escape what it factually is. A believer who looks on any flesh body, thinking theirs is better sees exactly nothing in the Spirit.

Paul addresses this sight, the "are we better" sight, and comes back with a resounding NO.

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

then you have those who truly live it. it is a very controversial subject in the Church

It is only controversial to the flesh/vile body that resists the sights of scriptural accuracy. This doesn't change after salvation. And there are scriptural reasons it doesn't. Nobody really likes to hear about the sorry state of their own hide by disclosures of the Spirit.

IN effect, the flesh can not and will not hear of it.

. the way i believe is those who are truly saved will stay with it. those who walk away and never return was never saved
its not so much the teaching as the person using it as a excuse

There is absolutely ZERO slack given by the Spirit to a single evil thought. Not going to happen.

But that is where we all end up landing "in the flesh." We fall into denial. Hypocrisy. Lies.

So, here we sit, wondering why no one can get along?

We were never meant to. In the final analysis I have long pondered these matters, and understand that only a remnant will be HONEST. It is somewhat disheartening, but it is rather marked out this way. It is certainly not up to me to be able to make any believer to see their current state of contrariness. But I see my own, for sure. And I relate to every believer in the O.T. who, by the Spirit, exclaimed "WOE IS ME."

And woe is me if I do not speak the truth of the lesser matters, and hide them from God, in my vanity.

I could act better than any sinner in church. And it would only serve to make me an even bigger hypocrite.

When was the last time you heard a pastor declare himself to be the worst sinner in the church?

When was the last time you heard any teacher make such a declaration? Sadly, if they did, none would listen and none do.

Yet, the Apostle of our Church made this EXACT declaration in 1 Tim. 1:15. And it was not based on his external actions, but because of the mortal enemy of our soul who wages REAL WAR in our own mortal, vile, contrary, corrupted, dishonorable, weak body, where that snake battles, unseen.

Where do we find the workings of the viper, the snakes in the New Testament?

Why, in the leaders of the SYNAGOGUE. There's a deep Spiritual lesson to be had there. It's found in Mark 4:15.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

These will NOT escape by any religious cloaking devices.

There is actually a "reverse" principle that IS at work. The more God's Word is upheld, the more resistance follows, and does so "in the flesh."

This is shown here for example:

Romans 7:
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

and here:

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Paul acknowledges this "adverse" to the Spirit activity in his own flesh. And by no means sought to "exonerate" the reality of this in his own flesh or cover it up, under the guise of OSAS or works or "acting" like it's not true, when it is completely true.

He bared himself, for us to see. The O.T. promises the same sight:

Psalm 18:28
For thou wilt light my candle: the Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.

 

[smaller]

No such scripture as a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.


JLB

Then the only remaining conclusion to make is that Paul, himself, was evil.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Without a "fulcrum" of judgment, the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh, there is only EVIL PAUL to view and no cause to even hear him. But Paul was NOT evil and spoke TRUTHFULLY in 2 Cor. 12:7.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's why the doctrine is phony. It takes ZERO accounting for the factual contrariness, currently, of the flesh.

As already noted, the flesh is not relevant to salvation. It's not the flesh that is saved. So why keep bringing up the flesh?

And yes, this is real factual existing scriptural contrariness.

The claim that there is "contrariness" within Scripture is an amazing one. And totally wrong.

OSAS is a futile attempt to overlook this side of the ledgers of scriptural reality.

Since your view is that Scripture is contrary within itself, there is no reason to continue the discussion. Your view disqualifies yourself from any reasonable discussion about Scripture.

Nevertheless I TOTALLY agree with the end game sight of OSAS. I just have issues with it's "inbetween" position posturing as "current" reality because it's NOT.

This doesn't make any sense.

We all have to deal with contention which stems from the contrary portions depicted in the scriptures.

Those who rightly divide the Word of Truth, per 2 Tim 2:15 know that there is no contrariness in Scripture.

I've said this to you before, and will say it again. There are TWO separate fates that can be viewed with Paul as an example. Here is the "example" that he gave us:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Uh, the fate of the flesh is the grave. Which will be resurrected into a new body at the resurrection. Which has nothing to do with one's salvation.

Now, let's see if you can follow what this means.

It means that PAUL was OSAS. It also means that the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh is slated for no uncertain fact to burn in hell.

So what? What does the messenger of Satan have to do with anyone's salvation? Nothing. Nothing at all. So again, why keep bringing up what DOES NOT RELATE TO ONE'S SALVATION?

We can't cover the entirety of ourselves as believers with OSAS because that blanket doesn't fit the whole body.

Because Paul's messenger of Satan doesn't apply to every believer. Probably not ANY believer, and you've not proved otherwise.

There is an opposite side of the coin to view. And Paul acknowledges this.

No, there's not. And no, he didn't.

OSAS does not extend to anyone but a believer.

That's my point. ;)

But that is not ALL a believer "presently" consists of.

Once again, you are mistaken. Any messenger of Satan is EXTERNAL to the believer, and has no bearing on the believer's salvation. And you've not proven otherwise.

In the end, I agree with you.

Well, there you go.

There will be NO RED.

Whatever that means. 2

But to say OSAS applies in the NOW to the entirety of the believer isn't and can not possibly be TRUE or TRUTHFUL.

This doesn't make any sense. The believer is NOW saved. Jesus said that those who believe HAVE (present tense) eternal life. Do you believe that one can possess eternal life and NOT be saved??? That IS the conclusion of your view.

It means that there is no way to snug the blanket of OSAS over the contrary flesh. Plain and simple.

Why do you keep bringing up the flesh? It has NO bearing on salvation, and you've not proven that it does.

The flesh is not an issue. What is the issue of salvation is the soul of the believer. Not the body.

IF you read how Paul described himself AND the status of his own contrary flesh and the OCCUPANT of that flesh, you'll see that OSAS applied to Paul and ETERNAL DAMNATION and WRATH will apply to the messenger of Satan in his own flesh.

There is nothing in Scripture to conclude that any believer can be demon possessed, which seems to be your view. The messenger of Satan wasn't indwelling Paul EVER. There is nothing in that context to suggest that.

That's why OSAS, in the now, is somewhat futile. It's just not that simple.

It's quite simple. Once saved, always saved. It's your view that is totally confused and complicated and contrary to Scripture.