I have decided...

[thessalonian]

Purgatory is an unbiblical topic. Like I said before, the Catholic church wanted to sell indulgences so they needed a concept like Purgatory.

If you are going to make indulgences then you need to back them up. I asked you when the doctrine of purgatory was made up above? Date please. Who invented it? Thanks.

Do you believe in imputed righteousness? How about sanctification? What is it and when does it take place? When is it finished? Thanks.

 

[Bubba]

Jonathan Edwards wrote:

"At death the believer not only gains a perfect and eternal deliverance from sin and temptation, but is adorned with a perfect and glorious holiness. The work of sanctification is then completed, and the beautiful image of God has then its finishing strokes by the pencil of God, and begins to shine forth with a heavenly beauty like a seraphim."

The biggest difference is that most Protestants believe that Sanctification is immediate at death without any punitive repercussions.
Bubba

 

[thessalonian]

The "immdiate" belief is not difference in Catholic understanding. As I said it is a different time frame in the afterlife. Catholicism does not doctrinally claim it has a time frame that is long or even has length. Lengths have been spoken of to relate it to suffering we go through in this life that brings about our sanctification. But they are not doctrinal, just relational.

As far as punative, you do agree with 1 Cor 3:15 where it says 15: If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


So is this "as through fire" only during life, such that if (going back to my billy graham question) if the new convert (who led and extraordinarily sinful life0 dies with Billy on the bus he can forgo the "as if through fire"? When does the "as if through fire" take place? Does sanctification involve trial in this life? Thanks in advance for your response?

With regard to the punative that you speak of, what precisely do you mean? Certainly not that Bily and the new convert have equal sanctification in the state in the afterlife (at death or whatever)?

 

[Bubba]

Thess,
It is amazing how we can get back to this topic. First, I do not believe that Purgatory was fabricated to bring more money into the Church to build St. Peter’s basilica or some other cathedral, the doctrine was in practice long before the Middle Ages, if I remember my own Catholicism properly. Second, we have a total different understanding of 1Corinthians 3:15, I do not believe the passage is about temporary punishment at all. It is about all of man’s works being separated from the true works of God’s Holy Spirit and seen from a heavenly perspective. Which is contextual to the problem the Corinthians were having with elevating individuals instead of God (see chaps. 1 through 3) Apart from Christ, we can do nothing (John 15:5).
Bubba

 

[thessalonian]

Okay let's approach it a little differently. Does the suffering we undergo on this earth because have any part to play in our sanctification?

9: Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.

Rm. 5

3: More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,

 

[Sothenes]

Purgatory is an unbiblical topic. Like I said before, the Catholic church wanted to sell indulgences so they needed a concept like Purgatory.

If you are going to make indulgences then you need to back them up. I asked you when the doctrine of purgatory was made up above? Date please. Who invented it? Thanks.

Do you believe in imputed righteousness? How about sanctification? What is it and when does it take place? When is it finished? Thanks.

The concept of purgatory and indulgences is a known fact repeated in books, my Western Civilization class in College, and outside sources.

If you want a bibliography on Doctrine, I could recommend some.


“As soon as the coin in the coffers rings,

the soul from purgatory springsâ€Â

Dominican J. Tetzel (1517)


The following is from the following link:
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?A ... ndulgences
(I don't know how reliable the link is but it is a start.)

The Middle Ages

Indulgences were originally introduced in the eleventh century and arose in connection with the so-called sacrament of penance, which was claimed to assure the penitent sinner of the forgiveness of sins while making a distinction between the guilt and the punishment of the sin. According to the Church of Rome, the former was forgiven by God through the priest. The latter, however, had to be met through the performance of certain good works such as fasting, the recitation of certain prayers, pilgrimages, or alms.

In the fourteenth century we find the partial substitution of money gifts for works of mercy and charity, a fact which already laid the train for the Reformation: even notable Roman Catholics such as Juan de Valdez, the brother of the secretary of the Emperor Charles V, admitted the corruption of such practices:

"I see that we can scarcely get anything from Christ's ministers but for money, at bishopping money, at marriage money, for confession money - no, not extreme unction without money! They will ring no bells without money, no burial in the church without money; so that it seemeth that Paradise is shut up without money. The rich is buried in the church, the poor in the churchyard. [...] The rich man may readily get large indulgences, but the poor none, because he wanteth money to pay for them."

 

[Bubba]

To all that read this thread,
Before you come down to hard on Thess and others of Roman Catholic Faith, please read this article. Not that I agree whole hardily with this article, but the article does show that the RCC individual does believe that Christ does the sanctifying of the person and it is a Divine completion of perfection, but it is done in a intermediate place.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0 ... walls.html

Being of a Reform background, I believe God is sovereign in all aspects of the believer’s life, He brings us to a regenerating faith and He sanctifies us. Sanctification is a working out of God’s purposes in the believers life (Eph. 2:10 and Phil. 2:13) and if by chance you are like the thief on the cross and die right after being given a saving faith, you need not worried about having unfinished business in the form of sins to still be purified from. The reason is that God’s grace through Jesus Christ death in our place has already paid the price. Yes, Romans 5:3-5 speak of a suffering all believers who do not die immediately after being born again will go through, but this is also grace being worked out in our lives, because these events actually cause us to mature as instruments of God’s will to a lost world. Justification and Sanctification are all of God, for apart from His Holy Spirit working in our lives, we are nothing and can do nothing of a heavenly good.

I leave you with a quote from J.C. Ryle:
“He who supposes that Jesus Christ only lived and died and rose again in order to provide justification and forgiveness of sins for His people, has yet much to learn. Whether he knows it or not, he is dishonoring our blessed Lord, and making Him only half Savior. The Lord Jesus has undertaken everything that His people’s souls require; not only to deliver them from the guilt of their sins by His atoning death, but from the dominion of their sins, by placing in their hearts the Holy Spirit – not only to justify, but also to sanctify them. He is, thus, not only their “righteousnessâ€Â, but their “sanctification†(1 Cor. 1:30). Let us hear what the Bible says: “For their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified†(John 17:19). “Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it: that He might sanctify and cleanse it†(Eph 5:25). “Christ gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works†(Titus 2:14). Christ “bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness†(1 Peter 2:24). Christ hath reconciled you ‘in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight†(Col. 1:22). Let the meaning of these five texts be carefully considered. If words mean anything, they teach that Christ undertakes the sanctification, no less than the justification of His believing people. Both are alike provided for in that “everlasting covenant ordered in all things and sure†(2 Sam.23:5), of which the Mediator is Christ. In fact, Christ in one place is called: “He that sanctifieth,†and His people, “they who are sanctified†(Heb. 2:11).â€Â

I believe the moment a believer dies, be he a person who lived a long time in the Faith or a short time, Jesus’ finished work on the cross will fully sanctify either person immediately at their last breath.
Bubba

 

[gingercat]

ginger,

just beware that where men lead other men, they will without fail, lead them into temptation rather than towards the truth. Usually there are good intentions in the beginning, but given time, there is the inevitability of greed and a personal desire for power that leads even the the very elect astray.

I believe that this is the main reason that our examples of the past DO NOT include administrations such as those we see today. When we start to create our own means of worship instead of following what we have been given as an example, we open up the possibility of following men rather than God. For this reason, I am of the understanding that this is what has happened to our modern churches.

Just as in Isreal when they weren't satisfied with God as their King, we too now days, have decided that God and Christ are NOT ENOUGH so we flock to be led by other men and worship their buildings. There are those that will completely disagree with what I offer. So be it.

But ginger, always remember, it's not a building or group of men that we are to follow but God through His Son. So long as we can discern the difference, we are able to do God's will. The problems arise when we loose sight of what we are supposed to follow and what other men would teach us to follow. Never loose sight of the the simplicity that IS Jesus Christ and there should be little that will get in the way. But it IS about Father and Son more so than ANY group. Yes, we are to gather, but this is NOT the most important of issues with which we must deal with.

Imagican,

Their doctrine make sense to me and very thorough, but they are refusing to answer all the things others are accusing them of. That makes me very suspicious. I am giving up trying to be one of their members.

I still would not call them cult.

 

[thessalonian]

Bubba,

Thank you for that article. It hits the nail on the head with regard to what I have been trying to say for so long on this board. I am not sure you read it closely though.

As for the part about the Pope and Diana, he does not understand why the Pope might say to pray for her. It was not as a matter of declaring her saved but in purgatory. It is based on us not knowing the state of her soul because we are uncertain of what sins she committed and cannot know if she repented of them afterwards. We can pray that she did, knowing that God in his forknowledge would know of our prayers and could bring about the grace in her life before she died. If she in fact had committed mortal sins and not repented she is in hell. Nothing the Pope said denies this.

blessings

 

[Imagican]

From ginger joining the JW's to arguments of purgatory. Wow, I go away for a couple of days and you guys 'just run wild'. he he he.

Come on Thess, you know that purgatory is a 'Catholic' invention. Soth and I agree on little. But the purgatory thing was 'invented' to such money out of the 'forced followers' of the RCC.

YOU CANNOT offer me redemption any more than I can offer it to you. Our individual purpose will be judged and that's the inevitable conclusion of the ENTIRE Bible. One could certainly pray for individuals that have died this death, but in the end, it's GOD'S will that WILL be done and NOT ours, on earth as it is in heaven.

NO amount of money that I could give to the Pope could buy ANYTHING for my dead great grand father, (except maybe a 'new hat'. What is it with those silly hats that they wear anyway?).

IF there is a purgatory, it is nothing more than 'the grave', for we ALL sleep until judgement. And, if what the Catholics teach has any credence, then the parable of the two men, one in heaven and one in hell don't really mean anything.

 

[gingercat]

From ginger joining the JW's to arguments of purgatory. Wow, I go away for a couple of days and you guys 'just run wild'. he he he.

Imagican,

I changed my mind

They refused to answer to the questions I was prepared to ask them.

so, so much for that idea

 

[thessalonian]

Come on Thess, you know that purgatory is a 'Catholic' invention. Soth and I agree on little. But the purgatory thing was 'invented' to such money out of the 'forced followers' of the RCC.

Who was it invented by and when.

You can't just post something without proof. So give us the proof. Sorry but I don't trust in men and so I am not just going to let you make statements without evidence. :-?

 

[Sothenes]

IF there is a purgatory, it is nothing more than 'the grave', for we ALL sleep until judgement. And, if what the Catholics teach has any credence, then the parable of the two men, one in heaven and one in hell don't really mean anything.

"And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin."-Genesis 35:18

"And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived."-1 Kings 17:21-22

(This soul does a lot of traveling for a soul that was sleeping in the grave.)

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."-Luke 16:22-23

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls (not bodies) of them that were slaim for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"-Revelation 6:9-10

They weren't crying in their sleep but they were conscious and aware of what was going on.

I have a book on Heaven by Thomas Ice and I'm ready to go a second round on the topic and language of soul sleep. It is probably one of the only books that has explained to me what the language of 'sleep' meant in their culture and no one else has explained it very well.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."-2 Corinthians 5:8

To be absent from our dead bodies is to be present with the Lord if the person is a Christian.

 

[thessalonian]

And, if what the Catholics teach has any credence, then the parable of the two men, one in heaven and one in hell don't really mean anything.

First of all are you talking about the story of the man in abraham's bosom and the man accross the chasm? Wasn't Jesus the first fruits? I do not believe that Abraham's boosom is heaven. It was a resting place until the resurrection.
Not to be mean or arrogant or anything but you could use a course in logic. How does someone in heaven and someone in hell mean there is no purgatory. Catholicism does not teach that there is noone in heaven. Purgatory is simply the purification phase before someone enters heaven. Your logic simply does not work.

blessings