I have decided...

[Imagican]

Oh come on Soth, you don't really 'believe' what you wrote do you?

The Chrarismatics believe that mumbling gibberish is the tongues of the Bible. They believe that they can slap you on the forehead and heal you. Some of them even handle rattle snakes believing that this 'proves' something, (other than their ignorance).

Some believe in emersion in water, others believe that this is 'symbolic' and sprinkle. Some believe in weekly participation in the sacriment, others do it whenever they decided to. Still others only do it once a year.

Some believe that EVERYONE may be accepted into a fold, others that members must be 'voted on'.

Some believe in OSAS, and others believe that Salvation is 'conditional'. Some believe that Jesus IS God while others believe that He is simply the Son of God. Some believe that Mary is the perpetual virgin, others that she had other children after Jesus.

I could go on and on like this. I believe that everyone else is already aware of the 'differences' in the denominations. That's the NATURE of denominations to begin with. Differences. A statement of faith that 'differs' from all before it. That's how denominations were formed. And each believes that theirs is the ONLY true denomination.

So, from your perspective, as long as they 'gather' it doesn't really matter that they ignore the Word and follow their 'own' desires?

So, Soth, what is 'your' denomination of 'choice'. Who do you choose to follow? And is this the 'right' one? Please let me know for I have searched for years to find the 'right' one.

 

[gingercat]

I do not promoste any denomination either. I just decided to check out seriousely about JW and in the process of being affiliated with them.

I have been stating my convictions that they are the most devoted and biblical IMHO. I am very simple minded and I don't take vague understanding and of the Bible like trinity. We can be devoted Christians without memorizing and understand the Bible completely. The Bible states very clearly that we show our true faith in our walk with the Lord. JW is showing it brightly. Of course there are many godly non-believers too, but non-believers are not promoting Jesus; JW is promoting Jesus!!! There is a huge difference!!!

Even though I don't agree with the Trinity doctrine, if I see many godly people in the main stream churches I would never scrutinize them like I have been. Main stream churches gave me a super good evidence of bad example of their Christianity.

Just because they are saying Jesus is not God Himself does not mean they are denying Jesus' divine nature; after all without being devine, how can He save the whole world????

 

[Sothenes]

Gingercat,

I'm not talking about non-essential doctrine.

If you look at the creeds, what makes a person a Christian is the essentials of the faith which we all share. If you look at the creeds of Methodism, Baptists, etc.; Justification by Faith, the diety of Jesus Christ, the virgin birth, etc., are the essentials of the faith.

Sothenes

 

[gingercat]

Non-essential? Being a salt and light in the world is not essential?

BTW, I already stated how I understand Jesus is teaching about Himself. Jesus is clearly stating He is son of God and Savior of the world and JW is not denying that at all!!! That should be the main belief of our faith!!!

 

[thessalonian]

I didn't look in to this thread till now. I'm not surprized.

Ginger, you'll have to give up your non-church going arguements now. JW's go to Church. No more siding with Henry on Church buildings either. JW's have em. And I hate to tell you but they have authorities as well.

 

[Imagican]

Acceptance and obedience. Is there ANYTHING else that IS essential to following Christ to the Father? Once one developes a personal relationship with the Father through His Son, the Spirit is then able to lead one in the proper direction and offer the proper discernment. Anything that man teaches other than this, is nothing more than 'man-made' religion. Of NO effect as far as Salvation is concerned.

There are those that are way too weak to accept the simplicity that IS Jesus Christ. For those I offer that NO amount of ANYTHING is able to change this until one is willing to 'let it go' and trust in Christ and His Father. Churches by their very nature will make one dependant upon 'them' instead of God. Promissing but NEVER delivering that which most seek. Why? Because the churches can offer NOTHING other than traditional ritual that CANNOT save. The relationship is UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL. Until one comes to this realization, all they can do is 'chase a dream' as far as the churches are concerned.

 

[thessalonian]

Now, for the proof in the pudding, I ask WHICH denomination is the TRUTH? Which church is THE CHURCH. WHO should I follow; the Baptists? The Methodists?, The Pentacostals? The Non-Denominationals? Who is it that has it Right? See what I mean?

They all share essential doctrine of the historic Christian faith and if I pulled out "The Creeds of Christiandom" by Phillip Schaff, I can prove they all believe the same thing but they sometimes call it different things. I looked at the Westminster Confession of Faith and concluded that they believed many of the essentials of the faith but sometimes it is called something different. We have this commonality and we are brothers in Christ.

So who has this list of essentials? I've seen lists from one to 20 things that are essential. So which is the right list? Who decides what things in the Bible are essential and which ones are not? Some protestants tell me I am damned to hell for not beleiving in Once Saved Always Saved. By what authority are they wrong or right in making this an essential. Lutherans will tell you baptism is essential. I thought the Bible contained everything neccessary for salvation. Isn't this a protestant axiom of faith. So is some of what it contains really not neccessary? Protestantism does have a problem here and you are glossing over it Soth. :o

 

[gingercat]

I didn't look in to this thread till now. I'm not surprized.

Ginger, you'll have to give up your non-church going arguements now. JW's go to Church. No more siding with Henry on Church buildings either. JW's have em. And I hate to tell you but they have authorities as well.

Do you realize that they are refusing to attend organized churches because they have been witnessing mega hypocricy in main stream churches?

 

[thessalonian]

I didn't look in to this thread till now. I'm not surprized.

Ginger, you'll have to give up your non-church going arguements now. JW's go to Church. No more siding with Henry on Church buildings either. JW's have em. And I hate to tell you but they have authorities as well.

Do you realize that they are refusing to attend organized churches because they have been witnessing mega hypocricy in main stream churches?

THEY ARE AN ORGANIZED CHURCH. I hate to break the news but you will find hypocrits among them as well. How many JW's do you know
personally?

http://www.silentlambs.org/press/NYTarticle.htm
http://www.rickross.com/reference/jw/jw95.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/ ... 1557.shtml

I can post more if you like.

Such things prove nothing about the truth or error of a religion mind you. They simply prove that there are sinners in all religions. Hypocrits if you will. Of course if any man says he is without sin he is a liar.

 

[Sothenes]

So who has this list of essentials? I've seen lists from one to 20 things that are essential. So which is the right list? Who decides what things in the Bible are essential and which ones are not? Some protestants tell me I am damned to hell for not beleiving in Once Saved Always Saved.

I looked at the first early Church creeds and they were just quotations of scripture.

Doctrine means teaching and it usually refers to the Apostle's doctrine.

Anyone who tells you that you are going to hell for not believing in 'Once Saved Always Saved' doesn't know what they are talking about but all heresies do start with the nature of God so some heresies become big problems while smaller ones do not. Heresies are wrong and some can be damning but unless you show me the statement in the Bible, you cannot make a Bible doctrine out of it. You are not damned and on your way to hell for not believing Once Saved Always Saved.

Whomever reads their Bible for essential Christian doctrine has the right list of essentials unless they add to the Word of God or subtract from the Word of God. For example, Ephesians 2:8-9 says that by grace you are saved by faith and that not of yourselves but it is the gift of God. That is justification by faith and that is how we define ourselves between Baptist, Methodist and all true believers. That is what we have in common. Our belief comes from the Bible. If you believe that faith comes from sacriments then that isn't what the Bible says "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."-Romans 10:17 and the Bible defines what is essential to have salvation and what isn't essential.

There are groups like the United Pentecostal Church which would say that you have to speak in tongues to be saved but if you also examine their doctrines, they don't believe in the Trinity and this is a larger group than the Jehovah's Witnesses. Comparing them to us means that you don't know the difference between us and them. The United Pentecostal Church is a cult but so many people don't know what they really believe because they use the same language as "Jesus" and "God" but their Jesus is totally different than our Jesus because they have different meanings for God.

The Biblical principle found in the Bible is that scripture interprets scripture.
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."-1 Corinthians 2:13

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/In ... ation.html

 

[thessalonian]

The Biblical principle found in the Bible is that scripture interprets scripture.
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."-1 Corinthians 2:13

I don't believe that the Bible says scripture interprets scripture. I do not believe that "word of God", "which we speak" = scripture though I do believe scripture is the Word of God. (but not all the word of God is scripture). So am I damned or is this another of those non-essentials? :-?

 

[Imagican]

Thess,

You never cease to amaze. Your reply was profound in that it is complete 'truth'. The Bible, (Word), IS the Word of God. BUT, it is not ALL the Word of God. There ARE still those that are able to learn 'beyond' what is contained in the Word. The Word is ONLY the 'beginning' of understanding. Once we begin to understand and accept the LOVE of God, we are then able to open ourselves up to the Spirit and IT is able to lead us EVEN FURTHER than the 'written Word alone'.

Good one, my brother, even if from the mind and mouth of a Catholic, (been waiting for days to say that, he he he). No, really, I hope that there are those out there that will truly pick up on what you stated and take it to heart. THIS is why I continually refer to a 'personal relationship' for without it, there is ONLY the written Word which is ONLY the 'beginning' of understanding.

MEC

 

[thessalonian]

It's pretty much from the Bible.

2 Thes 2:15
15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

I've never seen anyone do a decent job interpreting this. I do have to say I don't agree with your application of the belief that the Word of God is not contained wholely in scripture. Nor do I agree with the Mormons. The Church is the pillar and support of the truth. The oral traditions are where the rest of the WOG lies and it is passed on as the passage says BY WORD OF MOUTH. (2 Tim 2:2 as well). But at least we have some commonaility.

even if from the mind and mouth of a Catholic,

Thanks for the compliment dude! :-D It doesn't belong in the thess bashing thread. :-D

Blessings

 

[Sothenes]

The Biblical principle found in the Bible is that scripture interprets scripture.
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."-1 Corinthians 2:13

I don't believe that the Bible says scripture interprets scripture. I do not believe that "word of God", "which we speak" = scripture though I do believe scripture is the Word of God. (but not all the word of God is scripture). So am I damned or is this another of those non-essentials? :-?

It means that you have a different basis for being a Christian even though I would say that your basis is not the same as the Bible's.

 

[thessalonian]

Soth,

So it is a non-essential is what you are saying. Thanks for clearing that up. The Bible is the list but some of it is non-essential. So what parts are essential and what parts are non-essential. So is my basis a valid one such that I am not among the damned? Are all basis for becoming Christian valid? You seem to be telling me that one thing in the Bible is the basis for becoming a Christian. The Bible contains everything neccessary for salvation, but basis is not neccessary for salvation. :-?

You know something, in truth I believe all of it is essential but not in the way you would understand what I am saying. I am having two much fun showing your thinking to be contradictory to itself to explain however. :

 

[gingercat]

THEY ARE AN ORGANIZED CHURCH. I hate to break the news but you will find hypocrits among them as well. How many JW's do you know
personally?

You are right. They are Christian organization. I withheld looking into them seriousely because main stream churches called them cult. But since I have been studying the Bible seriously and serving the Lord, I found out they are the most devoted and biblical Christian organization IMHO.

It is not so hard to make over all assesment, if you know what I mean. Jesus is not so hard to find if you are serious Christian. JW is shining brightly for the Lord.

For your information, no one gets paid in their organization. So it is almost impossible to be corrupted.

 

[thessalonian]

For your information, no one gets paid in their organization. So it is almost impossible to be corrupted.

Ya might want to check on where the watchtower money goes. Hint: Building in New York where the leaders live. You know the ones who keep predicting when Jesus is going to show up and then revising it. Ya, those guys in the suits.

 

[gingercat]

For your information, no one gets paid in their organization. So it is almost impossible to be corrupted.

Ya might want to check on where the watchtower money goes. Hint: Building in New York where the leaders live. You know the ones who keep predicting when Jesus is going to show up and then revising it. Ya, those guys in the suits.

thank you for your information. I surely look into it.

 

[Imagican]

Wow Thess, you mean I offered you praise without merit? I guess I just interpreted what you stated through 'wishful thinking'.

Soth, what Thess is saying is that an understanding of the 'complete' Word is essential to UNDERSTANDING itself. But, a complete understanding of the Word IS NOT essential to Salvation.

There are those that need little understanding in order to be satisfied with their relationship to the Father through His Son. Others are compelled to understand MORE. The Word offers BOTH. The understanding necessary for Salvation and a more 'complete' understanding of the nature of God, man and the inter-relation of them.

What I thought Thess was offering is that there is understanding 'beyond' the Word. For those that allow the Spirit into their lives, there is understanding that goes WAY outside the Word. There ARE details about the lives that we live and those principalities and powers that affect them that are NOT contained in the Word. There are details about the beginning of life and about the end of life that are NOT contained in the Word. And, there are those that are able to develope a strong enough relationship with the Father through His Son so that the Spirit is allowed to reveal this information to those that reach this pinnacle.

We have the 'proof' of what I offer sprinkled throughout the Word. There have been many that were privy to information that NO ONE else was. Noah for instance was the ONLY person on the planet that was informed of the impending disaster that was about to take place. Moses is another. The prophets were continually offering their people information DIRECTLY from God that NO ONE else was privy to. This information was so profound that the prophets were often ignored or outright ridiculed. Paul himself states that his relationhip was allowed to grow to the point that he was lifted all the way up to heaven, but before being allowed the invitation to EVERYTHING, he was sent back to finish his job. No wonder he was capable of over-coming so much adversity, eh?

Nothing is any different now than it has ALWAYS been. Other than the fact that there are fewer that are 'truly' devoted than in times past, there are still to be those whose eyes are opened to truths beyond those offered in the Word.

And Soth, I feel for ya brother. I can remember when I first started on this walk and thought I really had it all down. i couldn't wait to offer what I had learned to any and all that would listen. I look back now and realize that what I thought I had then was just a 'sprinkling' of the truth and even that only to the degree that was necessary to lead me to a larger understanding.

Hang in there my friend and keep up the faith. It is a NEVER ending struggle to obtain the truth and the more one perseveres the more one is able to obtain.

God Bless,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

ginger,

just beware that where men lead other men, they will without fail, lead them into temptation rather than towards the truth. Usually there are good intentions in the beginning, but given time, there is the inevitability of greed and a personal desire for power that leads even the the very elect astray.

I believe that this is the main reason that our examples of the past DO NOT include administrations such as those we see today. When we start to create our own means of worship instead of following what we have been given as an example, we open up the possibility of following men rather than God. For this reason, I am of the understanding that this is what has happened to our modern churches.

Just as in Isreal when they weren't satisfied with God as their King, we too now days, have decided that God and Christ are NOT ENOUGH so we flock to be led by other men and worship their buildings. There are those that will completely disagree with what I offer. So be it.

But ginger, always remember, it's not a building or group of men that we are to follow but God through His Son. So long as we can discern the difference, we are able to do God's will. The problems arise when we loose sight of what we are supposed to follow and what other men would teach us to follow. Never loose sight of the the simplicity that IS Jesus Christ and there should be little that will get in the way. But it IS about Father and Son more so than ANY group. Yes, we are to gather, but this is NOT the most important of issues with which we must deal with.