I have decided...

[thessalonian]

Soth, what Thess is saying is that an understanding of the 'complete' Word is essential to UNDERSTANDING itself. But, a complete understanding of the Word IS NOT essential to Salvation.

Actually, no that is not quite what I am saying. A complete understanding is essential to salvation. All that is true is essential to salvation. We must understand it in truth. But understanding comes by way of grace. Salvation is by grace alone! If someone recieves a grace for a particular level of understanding and denies the understanding, i.e. resists the grace, it has an effect on salvation. If one does not recieve the grace for a certain understanding then he is not accountable for it. Luke 12 around v. 42 on and James 3:1 are critical scriptures to this understanding. So all in scripture is neccessary for salvation for those who are given the grace to understand the truth of it by God's grace. We are not given grace equally and our judgement is based on what we are given. Those who have more grace for more understanding have more required of them.

Luke 12
"Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required"

 

[thessalonian]

What I thought Thess was offering is that there is understanding 'beyond' the Word. For those that allow the Spirit into their lives, there is understanding that goes WAY outside the Word. There ARE details about the lives that we live and those principalities and powers that affect them that are NOT contained in the Word. There are details about the beginning of life and about the end of life that are NOT contained in the Word. And, there are those that are able to develope a strong enough relationship with the Father through His Son so that the Spirit is allowed to reveal this information to those that reach this pinnacle.

Actually I agree with this in principal. Where we would differ is what role "the Church which is the pillar and support of the truth" plays in it and what that Church is.

With one correction:

"are NOT contained in the Word.".

"Not contained in scripture explicitly"

I do find everything to be implicit in scripture.

 

[Imagican]

But that would mean that there is 'nothing' else to truth other than what we have already been offered through the written Word. Yet we KNOW that there are unanswered questions in the 'written Word'.

 

[gingercat]

I believe that bottom line of problem is greed. I don't know how organizations keep track of leaders to make sure they are not misusing or abusing God's money.

 

[Imagican]

Don't let them mislead you ginger. The JW's DO NOT HAVE CHURCH in the same fashion of other denominations. They have 'meetings' where they discuss matters of ministry. Nothing even close to the 'generic' church meetings that most other denominations are familiar with.

I believe that their meeting places are rather without ornament or anything elaborate either. A room with chairs. There ARE leaders but not like what one from most other denominations would be familiar with either.

They put up with NO NONSENSE concerning the faith. And once they indoctrinate one into their fold, they are expected to follow the teachings without question. They are NOT allowed to discuss doctrine with others. They may OFFER doctrine that they have been 'taught', but are NOT allowed to debate other doctrine PERIOD. They are VERY strict in their acceptance of others. No drinking, smoking, cursing, NOTHING that may offer a 'bad testimony' is allowed within the group. If one is found to be 'lacking' they are immediately confronted. If the change is NOT immediate, they are ask to leave until they decide to cease the behavior in question.

This is why many consider them to be a cult. Once one comes in contact with a number of them, it becomes obvious that they are trained like 'clones'. There will ALWAYS be the 'stronger' witness, accompanied by the 'new' follower when they offer testimony. The 'new' follower is encouraged to speak but ONLY to offer what they KNOW to be appropriate; 'God loves you', etc........... This is how they 'train' new followers. Then, when it is determined that a 'new' follower is able to take on the position of the 'stronger', they then go out to minister with a new, 'new' follower and thus it goes on and on.

Check it out ginger and then get back to us and let us know. Cult or 'truth'. i can't wait to hear of your experiences. It's really hard to talk about the inner workings of their organizatioin unless you become a part of them. I am always curious as to EVERY religion and their ways, so please, let us know as soon as you can.

MEC

 

[gingercat]

Sure Imagican. I will not let them control me. I will cooperate with them if I believe it is biblical. I have been asking them millions of questions already. I still have gazillions of them. :D

 

[Sothenes]

They are VERY strict in their acceptance of others. No drinking, smoking, cursing, NOTHING that may offer a 'bad testimony' is allowed within the group. If one is found to be 'lacking' they are immediately confronted. If the change is NOT immediate, they are ask to leave until they decide to cease the behavior in question.

This is why many consider them to be a cult.

This isn't quite true. A Jehovah's Witness where I work loaned her keys to another Jehovah's Witness and it was abused.

02.08.06Jehovah’s Witnesses sell out to cash in

http://www.cultnews.com/index.php/2006/ ... o-cash-in/

At silentlambs we have reported time and again the cover up of child abuse within the organization. Many s tori es relate the silencing of victims while pedophiles would go on to molest multiple children of unknowing parents. Elders remain silent at the instruction of Watchtower Policy on keeping confidential any information that might protect children from child molesters. Why? The administrative arm of Jehovah’s Witnesses (Governing Body) dictates that not only are untrained lay ministers investigate the crime of child rape, but also that they use a biblical edict of requiring “two eye witnesses†before the child can be believed. To see a description of this policy that ran on the JW website see this link, http://www.silentlambs.org/education/us ... nabuse.cfm
from: http://www.silentlambs.org/McClean.htm

 

[Sothenes]

Actually I agree with this in principal. Where we would differ is what role "the Church which is the pillar and support of the truth" plays in it and what that Church is.

With one correction:

"are NOT contained in the Word.".

"Not contained in scripture explicitly"

I do find everything to be implicit in scripture.

The verse does not say that the Church is the final arbiter of truth because that alone belongs to God.

 

[Sothenes]

Non-essential? Being a salt and light in the world is not essential?

BTW, I already stated how I understand Jesus is teaching about Himself. Jesus is clearly stating He is son of God and Savior of the world and JW is not denying that at all!!! That should be the main belief of our faith!!!

The revelation of Jesus being Deity is not accepted so Jehovah's Witnesses do not have the right stuff. See below.

Essential is in terms of salvation. You can be salt and light to people but unless they have a revelation of God, they don't normally change.

Another thing is that "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"-Matthew 7:22 Isn't that the Father's will as discussed in Matthew 7:21 which will enter into heaven? They might have the right message because anyone can say "Glory to God" and "Amen" and "Hallelujah" but they don't have the right stuff because Jesus says,"depart from me, ye that work iniquity". And Jesus says,"I never knew you: depart from me." (v.23)

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but in they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also."-Matthew 23:25-26

 

[gingercat]

"Wod unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but in they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also."-Matthew 23:25-26

Of course we have to be clean from inside. This is very basic of Jesus' teaching, but we should be light even to the non-believers eyes too.

 

[Sothenes]

Soth, what Thess is saying is that an understanding of the 'complete' Word is essential to UNDERSTANDING itself. But, a complete understanding of the Word IS NOT essential to Salvation.

Actually, no that is not quite what I am saying. A complete understanding is essential to salvation. All that is true is essential to salvation. We must understand it in truth. But understanding comes by way of grace. Salvation is by grace alone! If someone recieves a grace for a particular level of understanding and denies the understanding, i.e. resists the grace, it has an effect on salvation. If one does not recieve the grace for a certain understanding then he is not accountable for it. Luke 12 around v. 42 on and James 3:1 are critical scriptures to this understanding. So all in scripture is neccessary for salvation for those who are given the grace to understand the truth of it by God's grace. We are not given grace equally and our judgement is based on what we are given. Those who have more grace for more understanding have more required of them.

Luke 12
"Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required"

I wouldn't say that people will escape judgment because God didn't give them understanding.

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the windw blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."-Matthew 7;26-27

They can say they didn't understand but God says "they are without excuse:"-Romans 1:20

Some things you don't have to understand because you just have to apprehend and James 1:22 says "..be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

 

[thessalonian]

[dupe

 

[thessalonian]

I wouldn't say that people will escape judgment because God didn't give them understanding.

Your passages do not support your conclusion actually.

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the windw blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."-Matthew 7;26-27

I bolded the part you missed. Knoweledge given and not acted on causes destruction. That is exactly what I have said. This says nothing about something that was not heard. Knowledge given is a grace. Also the ability to process it in the mind is by the grace of God. A mentally retarded person may hear but does not have the ability to understand. This ability to understand is the grace of God as well. The retarded person I would hope you would agree is not accountable. A young child becomes increasingly accountable as his grasp for language grows. Once again we are accountable for what is revealed, but accoutability is diminished according to mental ability to understand as well. It is true however that there are those who are given knowledge and the ability to understand (all this is grace, or we are not saved by grace alone but grace + mental ability) and yet do not allow themselves to understand and grasp. They may still be in ignorance but it is not invincible. They are accountable.

They can say they didn't understand but God says "they are without excuse:"-Romans 1:20

"All creation cries out to the glory of God!" Psalms I believe. God has revealed himself in nature. Men are accountable for coming to a conclusion that there is a God and if they do not they are without excuse. But not all recieve the scriptures and to these we do not judge. The way you apply this passage it seems to me it is saying that scripture is redundant. No, scripture is neccessary to reveal some of who God is. His saving plan cannot be derived from nature though he can be. Revelation is needed. Once again, if someone does not have the Bible is he accountable. Are we accountable for all the Bible, to get it all right? We are accountable for what God has given us the grace to understand. That is clear to me. Some of lesser intelligence understand less. Are they accountable for what I understand? It is clear to me the answer is no. Some know more than I and are more accountable.

Read all of Luke 12 about v. 35 on. Note that originally the steward is given much and doing well with it. If the master came at that time he would have been rewarded. Yet the master delays and THAT SAME SERVANT (implications on Eternal Security are clear) does wrong. He is treated with the unbelievers. Yet "to the one who did not know, he will recieve a light beating". A lesser punishment for the one who did not know. Purgatorial implications if you Catholic. Next tanget for this thread I am sure purgatory. The rest of what I have said will be ignored.

Some things you don't have to understand because you just have to apprehend and James 1:22 says "..be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

Yes, some do what is required without knowing the full implications of it. Matt 25, sheep and goats, "when did we see you hungry or thirst....." "when you did it to the least of these you did it to me". They did not realize the implications of what they were doing fully but God rewarded them.

Blessings

 

[Sothenes]

I wouldn't say that people will escape judgment because God didn't give them understanding.

Your passages do not support your conclusion actually.

[quote:39c5d]"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the windw blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."-Matthew 7;26-27

I bolded the part you missed. Knoweledge given and not acted on causes destruction. That is exactly what I have said.[/quote:39c5d]

The point that you miss is that the Bible has already been given and there are all these things in there not being acted upon.

Yes, some do what is required without knowing the full implications of it. Matt 25, sheep and goats, "when did we see you hungry or thirst....." "when you did it to the least of these you did it to me". They did not realize the implications of what they were doing fully but God rewarded them.

You can come to God on your own accounting system but the warning is that the goats do not have the righteousness of Christ and the goats will get so much amount of fire for every sin because they didn't accept Jesus to pay for their sins. Everyone knows the goats go to hell because they haven't been changed into sheep and God only keeps sheep because He is a shepherd.
[/quote]

 

[Sothenes]

Read all of Luke 12 about v. 35 on. Note that originally the steward is given much and doing well with it. If the master came at that time he would have been rewarded. Yet the master delays and THAT SAME SERVANT (implications on Eternal Security are clear) does wrong. He is treated with the unbelievers. Yet "to the one who did not know, he will recieve a light beating". A lesser punishment for the one who did not know. Purgatorial implications if you Catholic. Next tanget for this thread I am sure purgatory. The rest of what I have said will be ignored.

Purgatory was invented so the Church could sell indulgences. There is no such thing as purgatory but I'm sure you might tell me there is. I have better things to discuss.

 

[thessalonian]

Read all of Luke 12 about v. 35 on. Note that originally the steward is given much and doing well with it. If the master came at that time he would have been rewarded. Yet the master delays and THAT SAME SERVANT (implications on Eternal Security are clear) does wrong. He is treated with the unbelievers. Yet "to the one who did not know, he will recieve a light beating". A lesser punishment for the one who did not know. Purgatorial implications if you Catholic. Next tanget for this thread I am sure purgatory. The rest of what I have said will be ignored.

Purgatory was invented so the Church could sell indulgences. There is no such thing as purgatory but I'm sure you might tell me there is. I have better things to discuss.

Your statement on purgatory is one born out of ignorance of history. When do you think purgatory was "invented". Date please. Thanks. I was not asking for a discussion on purgatory. Simply stating that that is the direction this will go because Protestants view it as an easy target. It is actually a more neccessary doctrine for protestants than Catholics because of the doctrine of imputed righteousness. Bubba showed that quite nicely.

 

[thessalonian]

The point that you miss is that the Bible has already been given and there are all these things in there not being acted upon

.

I am not missing anything. Everyone has it and understands it? Or they are accountable for understanding it? All in China have a Bible? All in Africa have a Bible? Is a man in Africa who speaks swahili accountable if you give him and English Bible? There I am afraid is alot you are not thinking through.


Acts 8
[30] So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
[31] And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

This man had the scriptures but was he accountable for what he had not the ability to understand by the very word of God! In my view not until Phillip explained. This man had a sincere, searching heart. Cornelius, a gentile, was said to be a RIGHTEOUS AND GOD-FEARING man BEFORE Peter came to him. He prayed and the Lord answered his prayer. I don't know of two many God fearing and righteous in hell. Do you. Has there only been one like cornelius through the ages?

You can come to God on your own accounting system but the warning is that the goats do not have the righteousness of Christ and the goats will get so much amount of fire for every sin because they didn't accept Jesus to pay for their sins. Everyone knows the goats go to hell because they haven't been changed into sheep and God only keeps sheep because He is a shepherd.

I agree about the goats. The question is however is there such thing as invincible ignorance. Our discussion is about the defining of the sheep? Does one have to have everything right in the Bible to be a sheep? If not then by your system that does not allow for ignorance (I think because it is a Catholic doctrine, that you cannot admit it) the way you have presented it indicates we must have a perfect knowledge or some of the things that are in scripture are not neccessary for salvation even though the scriptures contain everything neccessary for salvation. Now we are back to what is the correct list of what is neccessary for salvation. Some Protestants say just to believe but it is very generic belief and it nullifies the word of God. Some have a list of 5 or 6 things. I've seen lists of twenty. You said the Bible and round and round we go. I think if you examine what I have said without prejudice you will find it is consistent with scripture and logic.

Blessings

 

[Bubba]

Thess wrote:
"Bubba showed that quite nicely."
I do not believe in a intermediate place prior to glory, I believe we are completely sanctified at death and while pilgrimage on this earth we are seen as perfect, through the covering of Christ.
Bubba

 

[thessalonian]

Thess wrote:
"Bubba showed that quite nicely."
I do not believe in a intermediate place prior to glory, I believe we are completely sanctified at death and while pilgrimage on this earth we are seen as perfect, through the covering of Christ.
Bubba

AT DEATH, not before, right? Purgatory is not so much an intermediate place as a state of the soul. A purification that has to take place. Complete sanctification is neccessary. You would also have to agree that the "amount" of purification AT DEATH (the frame of reference for time in the afterlife is quite different from ours) is not equal for everyone. This is consistent with Catholic views on purgatory. If you believe such a purification is neccessary then your beliefs are consistent with purgatory. You just don't like the term. :-?

 

[Sothenes]

Purgatory is an unbiblical topic. Like I said before, the Catholic church wanted to sell indulgences so they needed a concept like Purgatory.