if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[shad]

Really, what we have in Scriptures inevitably leads us to declare in our Divine Liturgy: "JESUS IS GOD"!

Regards

Jesus and His disciples clearly distinguish between God the Father and Jesus the Son. They never say God the Father and Jesus the God or God the Jesus. Jesus is always addressed as Lord, not as God except those few verses you guys hanging on to. Please compare abundance of your verses you are holding onto and non-trinitarians' verses.

That's the main reason I started a new thread to show how abundantly God and Jesus' identities are addressed.

 

[watchman F]

Your reading I Tim. 3:16 the way in which you want to see it.

"God was manifested in the flesh" ? Or should it read - "the Spirit of God was manifested in the flesh" ? There is a difference !

There is a difference.... The main difference is the first statement ''God was manifest in the flesh'' is what scripture says. The second statement''the spirit of God was manifest in the flesh'' is how you think it should read because of you preconceived false doctrine.

I stick with they way it reads in scripture

Hi Watchman:

If you read this verse literally, then you are not reading this verse with those prescription spiritual glasses !

The Word of God can not contradict itself. But the way you read scripture, you constantly contradict scripture !

I wasn't changing the way scripture was originally written.

Of course I believe the bible literally any other way would be to cause it to believe whatever I wanted to say as you do. The bible does not contradict itself, nor do i cause it to. If it says seemingly to opposite things it is not contradictory because it doesn't have to be either/ or, but both/ and. Jesus was both man and God just as scripture say.

The main difference between me and you is I believe the Bible as you stated literally what it says is true. You do not believe the bible you cherry pick what you want to believe and spiritualize the rest of it away.


SHAME ON YOU!!!!

 

[dadof10]

You are totally incorrect here. The word "God" is a title not a being. God is Spirit. The type of being that God is, is a Spirit ! Dogs are dogs and mankind is mankind. God is Spirit ! God is a Spirit being. Just like the angels, they also are spirit beings. The same holds true for devil spirits. They also are spirit beings. If you cannot correct your erroneous thinking that God is not a title, then it is going to be impossible to converse with you.

Yes, on the topic of whether "God" is a title or not is impossible for us to converse about. Your thinking is convoluted on this subject. Let's move on.

God is Spirit ! True, Jesus Christ was not created, I agree. He was born of the virgin Mary, and the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. Jesus the Christ, is both, the son of man and the Son of God. Thus, his flesh is of man, which was taken from the earth. However, his seed is spiritual, which comes from his Father. Jesus the Christ is the seed Son of God - speaking spiritually.

So then Jesus is Uncreated? Has He also always existed? If He had no Creator, how did He come to be?

No again ! God does not begat God, and nowhere in scripture is this ever said !

Neither does Scripture say that Jesus' "seed is spiritual, which comes from his Father", yet you believe it. The word "begotten" assumes the two Beings are of the same substance. That's what the word means. Unless it's used as a metaphor, it means "to procreate or generate". He can create other things but, God can only generate (beget) God, just like man can only generate man.

 

[Mysteryman]

You are totally incorrect here. The word "God" is a title not a being. God is Spirit. The type of being that God is, is a Spirit ! Dogs are dogs and mankind is mankind. God is Spirit ! God is a Spirit being. Just like the angels, they also are spirit beings. The same holds true for devil spirits. They also are spirit beings. If you cannot correct your erroneous thinking that God is not a title, then it is going to be impossible to converse with you.

Yes, on the topic of whether "God" is a title or not is impossible for us to converse about. Your thinking is convoluted on this subject. Let's move on.

God is Spirit ! True, Jesus Christ was not created, I agree. He was born of the virgin Mary, and the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. Jesus the Christ, is both, the son of man and the Son of God. Thus, his flesh is of man, which was taken from the earth. However, his seed is spiritual, which comes from his Father. Jesus the Christ is the seed Son of God - speaking spiritually.

So then Jesus is Uncreated? Has He also always existed? If He had no Creator, how did He come to be?

[quote:3v0jxpw9]No again ! God does not begat God, and nowhere in scripture is this ever said !

Neither does Scripture say that Jesus' "seed is spiritual, which comes from his Father", yet you believe it. The word "begotten" assumes the two Beings are of the same substance. That's what the word means. Unless it's used as a metaphor, it means "to procreate or generate". He can create other things but, God can only generate (beget) God, just like man can only generate man.[/quote:3v0jxpw9]

Hi dadof10

I am sorry, but I can not converse with someone who lacks sound mind in their reasoning.

Anyone with a sound mind knows that the word "God" is a title.

A president does not begat a president.

A king does not begat a king.

When you accept logical thinking, and accept the fact that the word "God" is a title, maybe we can continue with our conversation.

 

[watchman F]

Hi dadof10

I am sorry, but I can not converse with someone who lacks sound mind in their reasoning.

Anyone with a sound mind knows that the word "God" is a title.

A president does not begat a president.

A king does not begat a king.

When you accept logical thinking, and accept the fact that the word "God" is a title, maybe we can continue with our conversation.

This coming from a man that changes God's Holy scripture around to fit his understanding rather than accepting scripture as truth. And even more so tells others that they should not accept the word as truth but to spiritualize and change it to conform it to their opinion.

 

[LaCrum]

Anyone with a sound mind knows that the word "God" is a title.

Oh crap! We've been worshipping a title all this time?!?!

God the Father is a person.

 

[LaCrum]

Only a portion of God came to this earth. That portion, was the promised seed of His Son. This portion is calle -- The Spirit of/from God.

Wait, so now Jesus is supposed to be the Holy Spirit?

 

[watchman F]

Only a portion of God came to this earth. That portion, was the promised seed of His Son. This portion is calle -- The Spirit of/from God.

Wait, so now Jesus is supposed to be the Holy Spirit?

I certainly do not hold to any opinion of Mm, seeing as he seems to be in his own little world out there somewhere. However to not only support the idea that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one while also disproving Mm's idea that Just a portion of god was manifest.

Colossians 2:9 For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And another interesting scripture when Jesus was speaking of His ascension and the sending of the Holy Spirit He said this....
John 14:18 I (Jesus) will not leave you comfortless: I (Holy Spirit) will come to you.

Curious statement to say the least.

 

[Mysteryman]

Anyone with a sound mind knows that the word "God" is a title.

Oh crap! We've been worshipping a title all this time?!?!

God the Father is a person.

Hi LaCrum

God the Father is not a person. God the Father is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit. < A Spirit being.

Satan is not a person, nor are angels persons, they are all spirit beings.

Devil is a spirit, a devil spirit, and there are devil spirits, which are also called evil spirits.

Angels have names, as does God, but this does not make them a person. The word "person" is associated with mankind or humankind.

 

[dadof10]

Hi dadof10

I am sorry, but I can not converse with someone who lacks sound mind in their reasoning.

Anyone with a sound mind knows that the word "God" is a title.

A president does not begat a president.

A king does not begat a king.

When you accept logical thinking, and accept the fact that the word "God" is a title, maybe we can continue with our conversation.

We disagree and cannot come to an understanding on the topic of whether the word "God" as a title or not, but it is a tangent. What is more pertinent to the OP is the questions you left unanswered. I'll repost them so you can give them a shot.

God is Spirit ! True, Jesus Christ was not created, I agree

So then Jesus is Uncreated? Has He also always existed? If He had no Creator, how did He come to be?

This is the heart of the matter because I only see one way something that is not God comes into being, and that is to be CREATED. Demons, angels and all other manner of SPIRIT BEINGS that you want to bring up were ALL CREATED BY GOD, correct? If Jesus was not created, then what does that make Him?

 

[francisdesales]

Really, what we have in Scriptures inevitably leads us to declare in our Divine Liturgy: "JESUS IS GOD"!

Regards

Jesus and His disciples clearly distinguish between God the Father and Jesus the Son. They never say God the Father and Jesus the God or God the Jesus. Jesus is always addressed as Lord, not as God except those few verses you guys hanging on to. Please compare abundance of your verses you are holding onto and non-trinitarians' verses.

That's the main reason I started a new thread to show how abundantly God and Jesus' identities are addressed.

I see you are refusing to address my longer post on the witness of Jesus, just from the Synoptics, that further reflection indicates that He IS making the claim to be a divine Being. I have not even BEGUN to look at John or Paul or the rest of the NT...

If we see Divine Attibutes appropriated to Jesus, then we have, by logic, Jesus is God....Why are you hiding behind individual verses that can all be twisted to suit your purpose (such as the obvious one, John 1:1-3?). It is quite apparent on just a few questions, that EVEN YOU are confused on WHAT Jesus is in your personal devotional life. Let's straighten this out...If you care to.

So let's go beyond that proof texting thing that we'll never agree on and consider another way of concluding WHAT Jesus is...

Let Divine Attribute = A.
Let Father = B.
Let Jesus = C.

Thus, the attribute of "eternity". A divine attribute. Thus, if God is eternal, we can agree "A = B", The Father is eternal. And when the Scriptures call Jesus Eternal, we get A = C. Thus, when we see that "All that the Father is has been given to me", to INCLUDE eternity, we must say, by logic, that A = C, Christ is God. Even if you don't understand it, the Scriptures, logically approached, yield this result.

Was this apparent from day one? No, the Scriptures clearly point out that the Apostles were confused, not expecting God to work in such a manner. It took the Spirit and time of reflection upon the life of Christ to witness that Christ was indeed God.

And by the way, this is not about 'non-Trinitarian" verses, but about Christology. "Is Jesus God"? We aren't addressing God the Spirit at this time, but the same argument would apply.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Oh crap! We've been worshipping a title all this time?!?!

God the Father is a person.

Yes, good point.

We worship a Person, a Being, not a title or office. A title has no power in of itself ontologically, since the power of the Being in question had such power before the "title" even existed. And so really this is a silly argument...

Because of the nature of Worship, that Persons are worshiped, God is indeed a Person. The confusion by others is the inability to understand what a "Person" is...

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

all this time a title has been telling me to grow in the lord, and seek the title :crazy

man. wow, i'm glad i know now. wheeew.

 

[dadof10]

Jesus and His disciples clearly distinguish between God the Father and Jesus the Son. They never say God the Father and Jesus the God or God the Jesus. Jesus is always addressed as Lord, not as God except those few verses you guys hanging on to. Please compare abundance of your verses you are holding onto and non-trinitarians' verses.

That's the main reason I started a new thread to show how abundantly God and Jesus' identities are addressed.

How many verses does it take to make a doctrine? 3, 4? If more than one, I question why you believe Scripture to be "inspired by God" at all, since it only says so ONCE in the entirety of the NT.

So, Shad, how many?

 

[shad]

How many verses does it take to make a doctrine? 3, 4? If more than one, I question why you believe Scripture to be "inspired by God" at all, since it only says so ONCE in the entirety of the NT.

So, Shad, how many?

My point is that you are ignoring too many verses to hang on to your mystic verses like "I am".

Do you really think this is saying much? You can make up your own interpretation for these kinds of verses.

My question is going back to you. Why do you ignore so many verses to back up your man-made doctrine?

thanks.

 

[jasoncran]

what of david when he said
the Lord said to my lord sit here till i till i put thine enemies under thy footstool

we have two lords now. how if only lord is the christ?

 

[shad]

Oh crap! We've been worshipping a title all this time?!?!

God the Father is a person.

Yes, good point.

We worship a Person, a Being, not a title or office. A title has no power in of itself ontologically, since the power of the Being in question had such power before the "title" even existed. And so really this is a silly argument...

Because of the nature of Worship, that Persons are worshiped, God is indeed a Person. The confusion by others is the inability to understand what a "Person" is...

Regards

MM is right, God is not a person He is Spirit being. So is Jesus and angels. Where does it say God is a person?

PS, Please dont make belittling remarks because you dont agree.

 

[shad]

I have not even BEGUN to look at John or Paul or the rest of the NT...

Are you dishonoring the New Testament?

If we see Divine Attibutes appropriated to Jesus, then we have, by logic, Jesus is God....Why are you hiding behind individual verses that can all be twisted to suit your purpose (such as the obvious one, John 1:1-3?).

I am not hiding, I am only honoring whole Bible, not just a few vague verses. Why are you ignoring so many verses to ostracize other believers such as me and MM?
I only deal with clear verses unlike you trinitarians. I don't pretend I know all the vague verses. If I read like you guys I will not be here to defend Jesus' word. Christianity is in caos and I have to fight for the Truth.

Francis, are you here just to fight for Catholic doctrines? Do you care to honor Jesus as a godly witnesse? What is wrong with my defense backing up my clear verses?

I ask you again; why do you ignore so many clear verses?

 

[jasoncran]

in this case the catholic and protestant doctrine is the same.
the protestant reformation didnt do away with the trinity as the concept of god.

 

[dadof10]

How many verses does it take to make a doctrine? 3, 4? If more than one, I question why you believe Scripture to be "inspired by God" at all, since it only says so ONCE in the entirety of the NT.

So, Shad, how many?

My point is that you are ignoring too many verses to hang on to your mystic verses like "I am".

I am ignoring NOTHING. I have said repeatedly that YHWH is Jesus' God.

Didn't you say this?

"Jesus is always addressed as Lord, not as God except those few verses you guys hanging on to."

You freely admit there are "those few verses" that address Jesus as God, correct? How many are needed to make a doctrine?