if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[shad]

How many verses does it take to make a doctrine? 3, 4? If more than one, I question why you believe Scripture to be "inspired by God" at all, since it only says so ONCE in the entirety of the NT.

So, Shad, how many?

My point is that you are ignoring too many verses to hang on to your mystic verses like "I am".

I am ignoring NOTHING. I have said repeatedly that YHWH is Jesus' God.

Didn't you say this?

"Jesus is always addressed as Lord, not as God except those few verses you guys hanging on to."

You freely admit there are "those few verses" that address Jesus as God, correct? How many are needed to make a doctrine?

Let me ask you this. do you say Jesus is equal to God the Father?

 

[shad]

in this case the catholic and protestant doctrine is the same.
the protestant reformation didnt do away with the trinity as the concept of god.

I know, protestants are not so different from Catholic. I dont even understand why they are not united.

 

[jasoncran]

in this case the catholic and protestant doctrine is the same.
the protestant reformation didnt do away with the trinity as the concept of god.

I know, protestants are not so different from Catholic. I dont even understand why they are not united.

really, how unlearned.
we dont pray to the saints
we believe in solo scriptura(to which you are trying to do)
the catholics believe in prima scriptura
the priest in the rcc can forgive sins,(confession)
most protestants dont believe that
the rcc claim apostolic sucession
the protestants dont

the catholics accept the apochrya,
the vulgate not the duey reims is the book to which your and my bible is most like

the vulagate and later versions dont have the apochrya for the most part.


we share some things but not everything
the eucharist is another.

 

[francisdesales]

MM is right, God is not a person He is Spirit being. So is Jesus and angels. Where does it say God is a person?

No, MM is wrong and so are you. A "person" has nothing to do with the distinction between flesh or spiritual beings. Angels are persons, distinct from other angels, as are men.

Here is the philosophical definition from Wikipedia. If you prefer, I can also post from other sites...

The term personhood refers to the state or condition of being an individual person and conceptualizes the essential meaning and constituent properties of "person" — i.e. what does it mean to be "a person." Boethius gives the definition of "person" as "Naturæ rationalis individua substantia" ("an individual substance of a rational nature").[1]

In philosophy, "person" may apply to any human or non-human actor who is regarded as self-conscious and capable of certain kinds of higher-level thought; for example, individuals who have the power to reflect upon and choose their actions.[5] This could also extend to late fetuses and neonates, dependent on what level of thought is required.

Thus, a "person", in philosphy, has little to do with the physical structure of that being, but is dependent upon whether that being has the ability to think and do.

Thus, God the Father is a Person. Not a title...

Regards

 

[shad]

MM is right, God is not a person He is Spirit being. So is Jesus and angels. Where does it say God is a person?

No, MM is wrong and so are you. A "person" has nothing to do with the distinction between flesh or spiritual beings. Angels are persons, distinct from other angels, as are men.

Where does the bible say God is person?

Let me ask you this too. Dad says YHWH is Jesus' God. do you agree with him?

 

[francisdesales]

I have not even BEGUN to look at John or Paul or the rest of the NT...

Are you dishonoring the New Testament?

How on earth did you get that from "I have not even begun to look at John or Paul"????

I am merely stating that my argument is so powerful, that I have only begun to look at THREE books of the NT. I can make my argument more powerful by including John and Paul!

Geez... Can we stop with the persecution complex, already?

I am not hiding, I am only honoring whole Bible, not just a few vague verses.

Shad, this has nothing to do with "looking at the whole Bible" Does the Bible DENY what Jesus says regarding what I said already, from the lips of Jesus??? What's your point? Can you think logically or are you stuck in proof texting mode? Is it not true that if the Bible appropriates a divine charecteristic to a Person, a charecteristic that the Bible describes as being ONLY an attribute of divinity, such as eternity, than it follows, LOGICALLY, that if the Bible says "The Son of God is eternal", then this attribute is proof and evidence that the Son of God is divine.

Thus, my argument transcends proof texting, since you have already decided what is ambiguous and what is not... Rather than spin my wheels on such nonsense, I have decided to go a different route. Logical discussion. If logical discussion does not appeal to you, simply say so.

Why are you ignoring so many verses to ostracize other believers such as me and MM?

What's the purpose of launcing into a dead-end discussion on verses, when my observation of you and MM shows clearly that what we consider "clear", you consider "ambiguous"?

Why are you grying to be called "Christian" when you do not believe a fundamental tenet of being called Christian - that Jesus is God?

If you want to belong to a girl's volley ball team, you have to be a girl. You are not being ostracized by being rejected for membership, if you are a boy. Same with being a Democrat, or any other organization with a set of ideas or a creed. We call a Christian a Christian in part because of our faith in particular ideas and concepts.

I only deal with clear verses unlike you trinitarians. I don't pretend I know all the vague verses. If I read like you guys I will not be here to defend Jesus' word. Christianity is in caos and I have to fight for the Truth.

This is simply childish, Shad. "I only deal in clear verses". Sure, "I know you are, but what am I"...

Is that the best you can do? Ignore my attempt to have a logical conversation withy you with such silliness? Why did you bother inviting me to discussion if you are a priori telling me that?

Francis, are you here just to fight for Catholic doctrines? Do you care to honor Jesus as a godly witnesse? What is wrong with my defense backing up my clear verses?

Am I here to "fight for Catholic Doctrine"? I am here to defend the Truth, so if you equate that with "Catholic doctrine", very well.

Remember, you invited me here, Shad.

I ask you again; why do you ignore so many clear verses?

Unless you eat my flesh, you shall not have eternal life.

What can be more clear?

Please, you think a verse cannot be interpreted in different ways, even the "clear" ones? Yawn...

All the verses you detail can be explained based on what other parts of Scriptures say. Does Jesus Himself claim divine attributes, yes or no?

 

[dadof10]

My point is that you are ignoring too many verses to hang on to your mystic verses like "I am".

I am ignoring NOTHING. I have said repeatedly that YHWH is Jesus' God.

Didn't you say this?

"Jesus is always addressed as Lord, not as God except those few verses you guys hanging on to."

You freely admit there are "those few verses" that address Jesus as God, correct? How many are needed to make a doctrine?

Let me ask you this. do you say Jesus is equal to God the Father?

And another ignored question...If there are verses that you ADMIT address Jesus as God, why don't you believe them?

Again...Jesus has two Natures. The human nature is not equal to the Father, the Divine Nature is. Now that I've answered your question, answer mine, unless you are going to claim it's too "unclear" like you do with verses that don't fit your man-made doctrines.

 

[shad]

really, how unlearned.

But you both believe Jesus is God and true Christians. Why true Christians cannot get along and have different organizations?

 

[francisdesales]

Where does the bible say God is person?

By definition, God is a person. Who is so daft to think God cannot think or has no will?

Let me ask you this too. Dad says YHWH is Jesus' God. do you agree with him?

Yes. But it doesn't follow that Jesus HIMSELF is not God...

There is only one God.
The Son of God is the Logos, the Word of God.
Thus, whatever is divine is God.

An example of this would be if President Obama was asked "As an American, who is your President"? Does Mr. Obama's answer, "President Obama", mean that he and the President are two different beings?

Regards

 

[shad]

Let me ask you this. do you say Jesus is equal to God the Father?

And another ignored question...If there are verses that you ADMIT address Jesus as God, why don't you believe them?

Again...Jesus has two Natures. The human nature is not equal to the Father, the Divine Nature is. Now that I've answered your question, answer mine, unless you are going to claim it's too "unclear" like you do with verses that don't fit your man-made doctrines.[/quote]

I am asking you this because you say they are clear verses. So why can't you trinitarians agree on the Trinity doctrine? I am also wondering if you even agree with Fransis.

You agree that Jesus is God but just about everything else you cannot agree on. It should not be this way if the verses you are using are clear.

 

[shad]

Where does the bible say God is person?

By definition, God is a person. Who is so daft to think God cannot think or has no will?

Let me ask you this too. Dad says YHWH is Jesus' God. do you agree with him?

Yes. But it doesn't follow that Jesus HIMSELF is not God...

There is only one God.
The Son of God is the Logos, the Word of God.
Thus, whatever is divine is God.

An example of this would be if President Obama was asked "As an American, who is your President"? Does Mr. Obama's answer, "President Obama", mean that he and the President are two different beings?

Regards

Do you know that protestants are saying YHWH is Jesus? If the verses you guys are using are so clear why so much confusion among trinitrians?

Do you know that some don't say that God the Father and Jesus are not equal but some do?

And please show me where in the Bible it says God is a person. I trust that Bible is God breathed and we will get all knowledge from it. If you dont agree with that then there is no meaning for our discussion.

 

[francisdesales]

Do you know that protestants are saying YHWH is Jesus? If the verses you guys are using are so clear why so much confusion among trinitrians?

The doctrine of the Trinity is a mysterious doctrine that can be confusing to explain. I am not surprised if a Christian has a difficulty with the specifics on it. I think if you hear "Jesus is God", all Christians would agree, even if they have a difficult time proof texting it. That is not necessary, since the Scriptures clearly point out that Jesus claimed divine attributes for Himself, even in the synoptic Gospels...

And please show me where in the Bible say God is person? I trust that Bible is God breathed and we will get all knowledge from it. If you dont agree with that then there is no meaning for our discussion.

Common sense tells me that God is a person and not an inanimate object or a Being that cannot think rationally. BY DEFINITION, God is a Person.

Jews, Muslims and Christians realize this. I am willing to say that even Mormons and JW's would say God is a person, given the philosophical defintion of "Person". Given this definition, would ANYONE deny that God is a Person?

If this is the extent of your argument, you are on pretty shabby ground, Shad.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

as a former jw, and mohrb or nadab will agree, jehovah is a person, he has feelings like us, and in his image we are created.

that is how the jw sees it.

 

[watchman F]

as a former jw, and mohrb or nadab will agree, jehovah is a person, he has feelings like us, and in his image we are created.

that is how the jw sees it.

Yes i agree and Jesus Jehovah Himself.

 

[Sinthesis]

And please show me where in the Bible it says God is a person. I trust that Bible is God breathed and we will get all knowledge from it. If you dont agree with that then there is no meaning for our discussion.

Perhaps you could define "person" so some solid common ground could be established.

 

[shad]

The doctrine of the Trinity is a mysterious doctrine that can be confusing to explain.

Then why do you say it is clear?

I am not surprised if a Christian has a difficulty with the specifics on it. I think if you hear "Jesus is God", all Christians would agree, even if they have a difficult time proof texting it. That is not necessary, since the Scriptures clearly point out that Jesus claimed divine attributes for Himself, even in the synoptic Gospels...

If verses you are backing up with are clear, your doctrines should not be so difficult to understand. Why are you being so illogical?

Common sense tells me that God is a person and not an inanimate object or a Being that cannot think rationally. BY DEFINITION, God is a Person.

I dont use common sense, I use the Bible for Bible knowledge.

Jews, Muslims and Christians realize this.

I know JW says God, Jesus and angels are spiritual beings because it is in the Bible.

I am willing to say that even Mormons and JW's would say God is a person, given the philosophical defintion of "Person". Given this definition, would ANYONE deny that God is a Person?

the same as the above.

If this is the extent of your argument, you are on pretty shabby ground, Shad.

this is not my main argument. My argument is that trinitarians use vague verses to support their doctrines. It is proved further by your mystical doctrine that most people cannot understand.

 

[jasoncran]

shad, simple question. is God the creator a god of order or chaos?

 

[westtexas]

Hi Westtexas

Show me one verse that is written --- "God the Son"

Is it not true, that Jesus the Christ is the -- "Son of God" ? So why twist it ? Change it ?

I gave you one a couple of days ago and you chose to ignore it but let's try again.

2 Peter 1:1-tou theou hemon kai sotaros lesou Christou (Hebrew/Greek Interlinear Bible) is translated "Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ"

2 Peter 1:11-tou kuriou hemon kai sotaros lesou Christou (Hebrew/Greek Interlinear Bible) is translated "Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"

The only difference in these two verses is theou (God) in verse 1 and kuriou (Lord) in verse 11. Non-trinitarians have no problem accepting verse 11 "Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" but when confronted with verse 1 and the only substitution is theou "God" for kuriou "Lord" will automatically start jumping up and down screaming "That's not what it means!!" Granville Sharp was a biblical Greek scholar in the late 1700's who came up with what today is called Granville Sharp's Rule. Non-trinitarian Greek scholars have attempted to disprove him for over 200 yrs and after all their study they are forced to admit that grammatically, the only interpretation for this verse is "Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ"

http://www.aomin.org/GRANVILL.html

 

[dadof10]

I am asking you this because you say they are clear verses. So why can't you trinitarians agree on the Trinity doctrine? I am also wondering if you even agree with Fransis.

Where have I disagreed with Francis? Francis and I BOTH agree with the teaching of the Catholic Church. If I have mis-spoken or misunderstood a doctrine, I'll gladly admit it.

You agree that Jesus is God but just about everything else you cannot agree on. It should not be this way if the verses you are using are clear.

What are you talking about? We are both Catholic and have not disagreed on anything. Even if we did, how does that help your pathetic case? More distractions in an attempt to cover for your lack of exegesis.

 

[watchman F]

Reading through this thread makes me sad. I do not think outside of maybe westtexas, and/ or mike that there is one single person in this thread that even cares what the truth is. All you want is to defend your preferred doctrine or your religion or your denominations view. Truly it is disgusting. You ALL do God a dis-service with this kind of non-sense.