if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[francisdesales]

The doctrine of the Trinity is a mysterious doctrine that can be confusing to explain.

Then why do you say it is clear?

Where did I say that, Shad?

We know what God has revealed to us, through the pillar and foundation of the truth, the Church led by the Spirit of God. Is it "easy" to understand? Easy to explain? No, we are children, and we accept what we are told, as NO ONE can enter the Kingdom without becoming as a child, trusting. I can do my best to explain it, but it is not easy.

If verses you are backing up with are clear, your doctrines should not be so difficult to understand. Why are you being so illogical?

Jesus did not come out and say "I AM GOD" in an explicit manner. No one would have believed it, nor would it have helped the Father's cause, to have His Son die on a cross to show the extent of God's Love. Yes, God could have chosen numerous ways to save us, but chose one, which included keeping His identity ambiguous leading up to the Cross. It was only AFTER the Spirit came to them, AFTER the Christ came from the grave to open their minds to the Scriptures, pointing out how they all were about the Messiah. Only THEN did they see that the Messiah was also Divine.

Thus, your desire to find a verse that has Jesus say "Yes, everyone, I am God" is misplaced. You know that this was not God's desire, so why do you insist on demanding such a verse?

Logic clearly states that if a being has divine traits that no other creature has, then it follows that said being is divine. Why are you ignoring this?

Thus, when we see Jesus making a series of claims about Himself, we come to understand that He is God. Even if it is not easy to understand.

When Jesus says we must have faith in HIM to have eternal life, isn't that an understanding that normally is applied to God, in the mind of a first century Jew? Either that, or it is a statement from an insane person or a megalomaniac or a liar. Perhaps with the crucifixion, they thought Jesus was just insane, but with the resurrection, clearly, those sayings took on a HUGE meaning. THE RESURRECTION VERIFIED ALL THOSE "CRAZY" SAYINGS, like unless you eat my flesh, you shall not have eternal life...

Common sense tells me that God is a person and not an inanimate object or a Being that cannot think rationally. BY DEFINITION, God is a Person.

I dont use common sense, I use the Bible for Bible knowledge.

You don't use common sense. Wonderful. Why am I talking to you then...?

We have a definition of "person". The bible itself clearly has God with an ability to think. To feel. To act. Thus, God is a person. The Bible never calls Moses a person, are you also saying Moses is not a person? If you deny that, I can only say that you are purposely being obstinate or are in the second grade.

Shad, one doesn't have to leave his brain at the door when he becomes Christian. That is simply foolish. God gave us rational thought, so we are allowed to use it. If you have chosen this to be your "defense", then we have nothing left to say to each other...

 

[shad]

Shad, one doesn't have to leave his brain at the door when he becomes Christian. That is simply foolish. God gave us rational thought, so we are allowed to use it. If you have chosen this to be your "defense", then we have nothing left to say to each other...

Well, you say you dont trust sola scripture and use outside sources ,then yes, we have nothing in common. I go to the Bible for all knowledge as far as doctrines are concerned. I don't use human "common sense". Common sense is carnal sense, not spiritual. I use the Bible sense.

take care.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis : "Shad, one doesn't have to leave his brain at the door when he becomes Christian. That is simply foolish."
----------------------

Hi Joe :

Please don't give us these one liners Joe . Brains ? We all have brains ! But do you have the Spirit of a sound mind Joe ? That is the question.

God gave Christians, the Spirit of power, love, and of a sound mind. Many people profess to have a certain level of intelligence, and some even try and use their higher level of intelligence against others. This is manipulitive thinking and is also evil.

The reason many differing christians can not talk to one another, is for a variety of reasons. But the major reason, is because some who profess to be a christian, are only a christian by characterization. But many of them do not have the Spirit of power, love, and a sound mind. This is not their fault, but it is a missing quality.

Have a nice day

 

[Danus]

"if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?" Answer: ?

Shad, I'm sure there are multiple answers to your question. I've tried reading through your post to see if I can figure out what your thoughts are on this, but so far I'm baffled.

Jesus was God. I can't get my head around anything else. God the father, God the son, and God the holly spirit. One God in three forms or aspects. That's what Christianity teaches. However, other religions do not accept Christ as God. I'd have to say that any other view of the trinity falls outside orthodox Christianity, and that could be anything.

I agree with you that Jesus is God plain and simple the Father, Son, and H.S. but that is no that the Trinity teaches

Ok, I'll bite. What does the Trinity teach?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis : "Thus, your desire to find a verse that has Jesus say "Yes, everyone, I am God" is misplaced. You know that this was not God's desire, so why do you insist on demanding such a verse?

Logic clearly states that if a being has divine traits that no other creature has, then it follows that said being is divine. Why are you ignoring this? "

---------------------------

Hi Joe :

Isn't it obvious as to why Jesus never said he was God ? Isn't it obvious as to why we can not find a verse that states clearly that Jesus said he was God ?

Here you go again Joe with your one liners. Whoes logic ? Yours ?

Jesus was divine, in that he had a spirit that no other human had, and that Spirit was "Christ".

Christians have the Spirit of His son in our hearts, and this is why we cry Abba , Father. As Christ was the only begotten Son of God, and thus his Father , was also his God. He acknowledged who he was unto us, as well as others. He declared that he was the Son of God - Mark 14:60 and 61 -- John 18:37 - "for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth" - "Every one that is of the truth hearth my voice" ------- John 10:36 - "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest ; because I said, "" I am the Son of God ? ""

Jesus didn't come into the world to deceive anyone, Joe ! He declared that he was the Son of God, not God ! He was sent ! He didn't come of his own will ! He always did the will of his Father and his God !

He also came to reveal his Father unto us, who was also his God and our God, and his Father , who is also our Father.

 

[Danus]

Jesus was divine, in that he had a spirit that no other human had, and that Spirit was "Christ".

Christians have the Spirit of His son in our hearts, and this is why we cry Abba , Father. As Christ was the only begotten Son of God, and thus his Father , was also his God. He acknowledged who he was unto us, as well as others. He declared that he was the Son of God - Mark 14:60 and 61 -- John 18:37 - "for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth" - "Every one that is of the truth hearth my voice" ------- John 10:36 - "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest ; because I said, "" I am the Son of God ? ""

Jesus didn't come into the world to deceive anyone, Joe ! He declared that he was the Son of God, not God ! He was sent ! He didn't come of his own will ! He always did the will of his Father and his God !

He also came to reveal his Father unto us, who was also his God and our God, and his Father , who is also our Father.

Ahh I think I'm seeing the argument here. This is about the person of Jesus being separate from the person of God? Is that the view of a non-trinity? Help me out here.

 

[Mysteryman]

Jesus was divine, in that he had a spirit that no other human had, and that Spirit was "Christ".

Christians have the Spirit of His son in our hearts, and this is why we cry Abba , Father. As Christ was the only begotten Son of God, and thus his Father , was also his God. He acknowledged who he was unto us, as well as others. He declared that he was the Son of God - Mark 14:60 and 61 -- John 18:37 - "for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth" - "Every one that is of the truth hearth my voice" ------- John 10:36 - "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest ; because I said, "" I am the Son of God ? ""

Jesus didn't come into the world to deceive anyone, Joe ! He declared that he was the Son of God, not God ! He was sent ! He didn't come of his own will ! He always did the will of his Father and his God !

He also came to reveal his Father unto us, who was also his God and our God, and his Father , who is also our Father.

Ahh I think I'm seeing the argument here. This is about the person of Jesus being separate from the person of God? Is that the view of a non-trinity? Help me out here.

Hi Danus:

Some questions can not be given an ample reply too, because of the way you structured your question.

God , you see, is not a person. God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit, a Spirit being.

 

[dadof10]

You did not ask if I disagreed with "some Trinitarians", you asked me if I disagreed with Francis. You're trying to drive a wedge where one doesn't exist. Divide and conquer is a sign of desperation for someone who is rapidly losing credibility and the arguments.

I was only asking because there are too many different opinions about the trinity. Why do nitpick my imperfect wording? You are lowering yourself with this kind of discourse. It is plain childish.

It's not a question of wording, it's the meaning of the words. I don't disagree with Francis unless he disagrees with the teaching of the Catholic Church, which he does not. We are both on the same page. I can't tell you what EVERY person who calls themselves "Trinitarian" believes, there is a wide range of subtleties, I guess. That's what happens when you stray from the moorings of the Church founded by Christ...But, I digress.

There are "many different opinions" within the non-trinitarian camps on Who Jesus is, also. What's your point if it's not division?

I already answered this question, look it up. I think it was in....2006...in another thread. :biglol

Now you are lying, I showed you I was not lying. Now you show me where you already answered.

thanks.

:biglol C'mon, Shad. You must have SOME sense of humor in there somewhere...

 

[watchman F]

"if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?" Answer: ?

Shad, I'm sure there are multiple answers to your question. I've tried reading through your post to see if I can figure out what your thoughts are on this, but so far I'm baffled.

Jesus was God. I can't get my head around anything else. God the father, God the son, and God the holly spirit. One God in three forms or aspects. That's what Christianity teaches. However, other religions do not accept Christ as God. I'd have to say that any other view of the trinity falls outside orthodox Christianity, and that could be anything.

I agree with you that Jesus is God plain and simple the Father, Son, and H.S. but that is no that the Trinity teaches

Ok, I'll bite. What does the Trinity teach?

The Trinity teaches that the Father, Son and H.S are all separate persons, and that Jesus is God the Son only, not the Father or H.S.

 

[shad]

It's not a question of wording, it's the meaning of the words. I don't disagree with Francis unless he disagrees with the teaching of the Catholic Church, which he does not. We are both on the same page. I can't tell you what EVERY person who calls themselves "Trinitarian" believes, there is a wide range of subtleties, I guess. That's what happens when you stray from the moorings of the Church founded by Christ...But, I digress.

It is very obvious you guys are confused about the trinity. That's why you say trinity is mystery. And that's why there are so many different views on of trinity. Some say Jesus is not equal with the Father and some say they are. Some say YHWH is Jesus. I believe this forum believes Jesus is YHWH. It is a circus.

There are "many different opinions" within the non-trinitarian camps on Who Jesus is, also. What's your point if it's not division?

Catholics created the doctrine which ostracize other believers who dont agree with your mystic doctrine. It is clear that it is a stumbling block. It creats division.

 

[francisdesales]

Shad, one doesn't have to leave his brain at the door when he becomes Christian. That is simply foolish. God gave us rational thought, so we are allowed to use it. If you have chosen this to be your "defense", then we have nothing left to say to each other...

Well, you say you dont trust sola scripture and use outside sources ,then yes, we have nothing in common. I go to the Bible for all knowledge as far as doctrines are concerned. I don't use human "common sense". Common sense is carnal sense, not spiritual. I use the Bible sense.

What a fine statement of hypocrisy that is... You believe in "only the bible", but yet, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that supports the notion of sola scriptura. Worse yet, it explicitly DENIES it.

Now, I find this fear of intellectual conversation strange among some Christians. I sense a particular "anti-intellectualism" among them. I fear it is because they lack the ability to critically think, somehow believing that if they think too much, their fables will come crashing down and Christianity will peel away. UNTRUE! Christianity, being truth, is able to withstand the test of questionings from the seeker of God. The Scriptures tell us to be prepared to provide arguments to support our faith. And thus, your complaint about common sense, well, it lacks common sense. One with a mature faith will be able to step out of their closets of fear and grow stronger in their faith, understanding that God is Truth - not your human understandings of God.

This is not a matter of philosophical speculations, Shad, this is just logic. It is quite easy to see and is used by all theologians, when they sit and think about coming to conclusions about God and His revelations. Thus, here it is, simplified:

We have a philosophical definition, a person = a being that can rationally think.
We have numerous Scriptures that say that God has the ability to think.

Thus, the conclusion is that God is a person. One with Bible sense will readily see and agree with this.

 

[westtexas]

KJV reads -- "the righteousness of God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ" < two entities here, not one ! Your rendering leaves out the word - "our" in the verse. Both God and His Son are our Saviour. 1. God gave His only begotten Son
2. Jesus Christ, gave of himself, and did the will of the Father who sent him. Jesus Christ did not do his own will. This is why Jesus prayed to his Father and his God , in order to do the full will of God and his Father.

Now I ask you once again. Show me a verse which clearly is written in the manner in which trinitarians write this phrase in this manner -- "God the Son".

Now, seeing we have taken this converstion to another level of thinking. Why not look at Hebrews 1:9

LOL!!!! You logic amazes me!!!! Through out these forums and this thread, whenever anyone uses the KJV, your response is "it is a corrupted version". In order to dispute a translation of the Greek text, what do you use?, THE KING JAMES VERSION I'm sure you didn't read the article http://www.aomin.org/GRANVILL.html , because it crushes the head of your theory that Jesus is not God, but non-trinitarian and trinitarian Greek scholars have come to the conclusion that the only translation for 2 Peter 1:1 is "Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ" confer with 2 Peter 1:11. So you have seen a verse that says the Son is God. Jesus Christ is God. Unless of course you feel that Jesus Christ is not the Son.


Since you have brought up the KJV and Hebrews 1:9, lets look at the preceeding verse which Dadof10 brings up and I have as yet seen you address it. (Hebrews 1:8--But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and forever:..KJV) It seems that even God addresses the Son as "God"

Westtexas

 

[francisdesales]

Here you go again Joe with your one liners. Whoes logic ? Yours ?

Anyone who has the ability to critically think will understand this...

I gave you the philosophical definition of a person, which is not mine. It is readily available on the internet.
The bible very clearly has God fulfilling the acts of the definition.
Thus, the conclusion is that God is a Person.

Jesus was divine, in that he had a spirit that no other human had, and that Spirit was "Christ".

I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about. "Christ" is a title, meaning "anointed one". Jesus IS the Christ...Jesus is not "the Spirit".

In addition, EVERY Christian has access to the same Spirit, so your reasoning "Jesus was divine in that he had a spirit..." is illogical, because it would mean that I am divine as a result of the Spirit who comes to ALL Christians...

Christians have the Spirit of His son in our hearts, and this is why we cry Abba , Father.

Yes, God's Spirit, God Himself.

As Christ was the only begotten Son of God, and thus his Father , was also his God.

Which doesn't mean that He was not God Himself. Scriptures clearly tell us that Jesus had divine characteristics. The bible tell us the Son of God was eternal. Only a divine being is eternal. Angels, men, not eternal. Matter. Not eternal. Thus, simple logic tells us that Jesus was God.

Jesus didn't come into the world to deceive anyone, Joe ! He declared that he was the Son of God, not God !

So if you are the "son of Jack Doe, human", that means you are not a human???

He was sent ! He didn't come of his own will ! He always did the will of his Father and his God !

His will and the will of the Father were equal, so He came of His own will.

 

[Danus]

The Trinity teaches that the Father, Son and H.S are all separate persons, and that Jesus is God the Son only, not the Father or H.S.

That's not quite my understanding. Just to double check I looked it up on Wikipedia for a little brush up.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.[1] The doctrine states that God is the Triune God, existing as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases,[2] but one being.[3] (Personhood in the Trinity does not match the common Western understanding of "person" as used in the English language—it does not imply an "individual, self-actualized center of free will and conscious activity."[4]:pp. 185-6. To the ancients, personhood "was in some sense individual, but always in community as well."[4]:p.186 Each person is understood as having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.) Since the beginning of the third century[5] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

This matches pretty well with my understanding of the trinity. However I tend not to use the word "person" for the very reasons pointed out above. I prefer to use the word "entity".

 

[Mysteryman]

KJV reads -- "the righteousness of God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ" < two entities here, not one ! Your rendering leaves out the word - "our" in the verse. Both God and His Son are our Saviour. 1. God gave His only begotten Son
2. Jesus Christ, gave of himself, and did the will of the Father who sent him. Jesus Christ did not do his own will. This is why Jesus prayed to his Father and his God , in order to do the full will of God and his Father.

Now I ask you once again. Show me a verse which clearly is written in the manner in which trinitarians write this phrase in this manner -- "God the Son".

Now, seeing we have taken this converstion to another level of thinking. Why not look at Hebrews 1:9

LOL!!!! You logic amazes me!!!! Through out these forums and this thread, whenever anyone uses the KJV, your response is "it is a corrupted version". In order to dispute a translation of the Greek text, what do you use?, THE KING JAMES VERSION I'm sure you didn't read the article http://www.aomin.org/GRANVILL.html , because it crushes the head of your theory that Jesus is not God, but non-trinitarian and trinitarian Greek scholars have come to the conclusion that the only translation for 2 Peter 1:1 is "Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ" confer with 2 Peter 1:11. So you have seen a verse that says the Son is God. Jesus Christ is God. Unless of course you feel that Jesus Christ is not the Son.


Since you have brought up the KJV and Hebrews 1:9, lets look at the preceeding verse which Dadof10 brings up and I have as yet seen you address it. (Hebrews 1:8--But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and forever:..KJV) It seems that even God addresses the Son as "God"

Westtexas

Hi Westtexas :

After everything I explained and asked of you, this is your reply ?

Here, let me try once more --- trinitarinas rewrite the phrase - "the Son of God" and twist it to say -- "God the Son". Yet, there is not one verse of scripture where this phrase is written in this manner. So how do you justify changing scripture in the manner that you do, and continue to hold onto this false phrase ?

We can deal with Hebrews 1:8, but you must realize, that verse 8 must harmonize with verse 9, and verse 9 must harmonize with verse 8 . If you believe that verse 8 is claiming to say, that God, his Father is calling Jesus a god, you are sadly mistaken, and this would totally contradict what it says in verse 9, and the Word of God would not harmonize.

 

[francisdesales]

The Trinity teaches that the Father, Son and H.S are all separate persons, and that Jesus is God the Son only, not the Father or H.S.

That's not quite my understanding. Just to double check I looked it up on Wikipedia for a little brush up.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.[1] The doctrine states that God is the Triune God, existing as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases,[2] but one being.[3] (Personhood in the Trinity does not match the common Western understanding of "person" as used in the English language—it does not imply an "individual, self-actualized center of free will and conscious activity."[4]:pp. 185-6. To the ancients, personhood "was in some sense individual, but always in community as well."[4]:p.186 Each person is understood as having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.) Since the beginning of the third century[5] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

This matches pretty well with my understanding of the trinity. However I tend not to use the word "person" for the very reasons pointed out above. I prefer to use the word "entity".

There is nothing wrong with using "persons" if you understand that a hypostasis is not the same thing as a human person with a separate intellect and a separate will. Many non-trinitarians are confused because they see a "person" as a separate entity with an intellect and a will, different than any other human person's intellect and will. God is not that way. There are three persons, hypostasis, but the Being that is God has only ONE intellect and ONE will. Thus, the Son of God does not have a different intellect or will than the Father. Thus, the Words of Jesus. Apply this also to the Spirit of God. There is only one will and one intellect, and this means God retains the "Oneness" of monotheism, since it would not do to have several divine Beings with different wills and intellects running around. There is only one Being called God, and this Being (Entity) is three persons, three hypostasis. Each hypostatis, Father, Son and Spirit, are of the same essence, God. Thus, non-technicians can become confused with this dogma.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Here you go again Joe with your one liners. Whoes logic ? Yours ?

Anyone who has the ability to critically think will understand this...

I gave you the philosophical definition of a person, which is not mine. It is readily available on the internet.
The bible very clearly has God fulfilling the acts of the definition.
Thus, the conclusion is that God is a Person. Thanks, but your carnal reply just isn't good enough

Jesus was divine, in that he had a spirit that no other human had, and that Spirit was "Christ".

I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about. "Christ" is a title, meaning "anointed one". Jesus IS the Christ...Jesus is not "the Spirit".Thanks, but your carnal understanding is just not good enough

In addition, EVERY Christian has access to the same Spirit, so your reasoning "Jesus was divine in that he had a spirit..." is illogical, because it would mean that I am divine as a result of the Spirit who comes to ALL Christians...Thanks, but your carnal explanation is just not good enough

Christians have the Spirit of His son in our hearts, and this is why we cry Abba , Father.

Yes, God's Spirit, God Himself.Thanks, but again, your carnal thinking is just not good enough

As Christ was the only begotten Son of God, and thus his Father , was also his God.

Which doesn't mean that He was not God Himself. Scriptures clearly tell us that Jesus had divine characteristics. The bible tell us the Son of God was eternal. Only a divine being is eternal. Angels, men, not eternal. Matter. Not eternal. Thus, simple logic tells us that Jesus was God.Thanks, but again, your carnal thinking falls short, very short.

Jesus didn't come into the world to deceive anyone, Joe ! He declared that he was the Son of God, not God !

So if you are the "son of Jack Doe, human", that means you are not a human??? Here again is a carnal reply to the spiritual explanation I gave you.

He was sent ! He didn't come of his own will ! He always did the will of his Father and his God !

His will and the will of the Father were equal, so He came of His own will.

[color=#FF0000Not true Joe. It might be your carnal beliefs just getting in the way of spiritual understanding. He did not come of his own will !][/color]

Joe, if you havn't gotten the hint yet, let me make it clear for you. Your comments are only carnal. The reason we will never be on the same page , is for this very reason. Carnality verses spirituality and truth.

Try and realize that I care Joe. But it is very difficult trying to talk to someone from a spiritual perspective, then the other poster can not fathom what is being explained to them.

 

[westtexas]

Hi Westtexas :

After everything I explained and asked of you, this is your reply ?

Here, let me try once more --- trinitarinas rewrite the phrase - "the Son of God" and twist it to say -- "God the Son". Yet, there is not one verse of scripture where this phrase is written in this manner. So how do you justify changing scripture in the manner that you do, and continue to hold onto this false phrase ?

We can deal with Hebrews 1:8, but you must realize, that verse 8 must harmonize with verse 9, and verse 9 must harmonize with verse 8 . If you believe that verse 8 is claiming to say, that God, his Father is calling Jesus a god, you are sadly mistaken, and this would totally contradict what it says in verse 9, and the Word of God would not harmonize.

Granted, the phrase "God the Son" is not in scripture. But you seem like an intelligent person so surely your theological approach does not hinge on fact that those 3 words, in that order, are not in scripture. Let me get your response to these questions. Jesus Christ is the Son, correct? If 2 Peter 1:1 is translated "Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ" Jesus Christ is addressed as God, thus the Son is addressed as God. The same in Hebrews 1 "Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God" If the Son is addressed as God, you have the concept of, God the Son.

Westtexas

 

[westtexas]

As far as second Peter 1:1 , the verse states clearly, that it is talking about two and not one entity here.

MM, what about 2 Peter 1:11? Can you quote that one for me please and tell me what you think, two entitys or one? What do you think?

Westtexas

 

[Mysteryman]

The Trinity teaches that the Father, Son and H.S are all separate persons, and that Jesus is God the Son only, not the Father or H.S.

That's not quite my understanding. Just to double check I looked it up on Wikipedia for a little brush up.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.[1] The doctrine states that God is the Triune God, existing as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases,[2] but one being.[3] (Personhood in the Trinity does not match the common Western understanding of "person" as used in the English language—it does not imply an "individual, self-actualized center of free will and conscious activity."[4]:pp. 185-6. To the ancients, personhood "was in some sense individual, but always in community as well."[4]:p.186 Each person is understood as having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.) Since the beginning of the third century[5] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

This matches pretty well with my understanding of the trinity. However I tend not to use the word "person" for the very reasons pointed out above. I prefer to use the word "entity".

Hi Danus:

God is a God that changes not ! He can not be less than in one nature, and greater than in another nature. And one can not say that the natures are not similar. Yet you claim by this , that their natures have one identical essence or nature. We all know the scritpure , which states, that Jesus said, his Father was greater than him. And we also know, that Jesus said that he did not come to do his own will, but he will of the Father who sent him.

So many contradictions, and not once have I see any trinitarian solve all these contradictions that they produce by their explanations.

Simply, if Jesus was God, he would have to be God in all essences and attributes. Yet , he is not !

Jesus Christ, after being ascended up into heaven, sits at the right hand of power, the right hand of God, the right hand of his Father. He submits to the will of his Father. And , he hands over the kingdom to his Father, so that God may be all in all. I Corinthians 15:28