if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?

[westtexas]

All you want is to defend your preferred doctrine or your religion or your denominations view.

I'm not sure what brought about this statement. It's been pretty straight forward Trinitarian/ Non-Trinitarian I thought.

 

[shad]

I am asking you this because you say they are clear verses. So why can't you trinitarians agree on the Trinity doctrine? I am also wondering if you even agree with Fransis.

Where have I disagreed with Francis? Francis and I BOTH agree with the teaching of the Catholic Church. If I have mis-spoken or misunderstood a doctrine, I'll gladly admit it.

I was asking this because some trinitarians say Jesus is YHWH and they also claim Jesus is equal with His Father. If the verses you are backing up are so clear why so much confusion among trinitarians? And why the trinity is so mystic if the verses are so clear? Your logic sure are mystical.

 

[watchman F]

All you want is to defend your preferred doctrine or your religion or your denominations view.

I'm not sure what brought about this statement. It's been pretty straight forward Trinitarian/ Non-Trinitarian I thought.

That is just the thing everyone ignores the scripture they all just go back and forth with what they think rather than what the bible says, and you got the catholics jumping in. You know they are simply holding down the standard view whether it matches up with scripture or not, and how shad, and Mm, can go + pages with all the scripture that has been given showing clearly that Jesus is God and have not move an inch from their denial of Christ's deity. It truly is shameful. We should all believe God's word not hold to whatever doctrine we have been taught.

 

[shad]

[ and how shad, and Mm, can go + pages with all the scripture that has been given showing clearly that Jesus is God

Ok, show me pages and pages of Scriptures says Jesus is God clearly. I showed you clearly many, many verses saying Father is God and while not saying Jesus is God. It only says Jesus is Lord.

BTW, I am only defending my convictions. What makes you the judge of other believers.

thanks.

 

[watchman F]

[ and how shad, and Mm, can go + pages with all the scripture that has been given showing clearly that Jesus is God

Ok, show me pages and pages of Scriptures says Jesus is God clearly. I showed you clearly many, many verses saying Father is God and while not saying Jesus is God. It only says Jesus is Lord.

BTW, I am only defending my convictions. What makes you the judge of other believers.

thanks.

Thats the thing I agree with you the Father is God. I have never denied that. However you do deny the scriptures that say Jesus is God.

Here are a few
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

1st John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

The Father Himself calls Jesus God in Hebrews
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Yet we both know that none of these verses will have any effect on you because of the hardness of your heart to the truth.

 

[shad]

Yet we both know that none of these verses will have any effect on you because of the hardness of your heart to the truth.

Do you think this is not a judgmental comment? You are judging me as having a hardened heart. Why should I even bother to discuss anything with you? You keep say inconsistent things; you call others judgmental and without waiting a minute you make this kind of comment. sheesh.

 

[westtexas]

I was asking this because some trinitarians say Jesus is YHWH and they also claim Jesus is equal with His Father.

John 5:18--Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (KJV)

This one's pretty clear Shad. Jesus claimed equality with God and himself. What do you think?

Westtexas

 

[westtexas]

Jesus had to be a man to be the Lamb of God. He accomplished what Adam could not.

Shad, what is it you think Adam was supposed to accomplish??

Westtexas

 

[watchman F]

Yet we both know that none of these verses will have any effect on you because of the hardness of your heart to the truth.

Do you think this is not a judgmental comment? You are judging me as having a hardened heart. Why should I even bother to discuss anything with you? You keep say inconsistent things; you call others judgmental and without waiting a minute you make this kind of comment. sheesh.

The better question would be why would I bother discussing anything with you seeing as you have hardened your heart to the truth. Also show one post where I have called someone judgmental????

 

[Mysteryman]

all this time a title has been telling me to grow in the lord, and seek the title :crazy

man. wow, i'm glad i know now. wheeew.

Hi Jason :

LOL,, No my friend, you are not worshiping a title. The word - "God" is a title. God is Spirit, a Spirit being. This is why you and I are suppose to worship God in Spirit and in truth. John 4:24

There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

With God, there is always a go between, when it comes to God and his people. God talks to his Prophets and his Prophets talk to those whom God deemed necessary. God who is the Holy Spirit, talks to Christ Jesus, and Christ Jesus talks to you by way of the Christ in you.

But the fact remains, that the word - "God" is a title. We associate who this title is attached to by two different means. What the written Word tells us, and the other, is what the Holy Spirit reveals unto our hearts.

For instance, if we were to say- The God of Abraham, or Isaac, or the God of Jacob , or the God of Joseph or Gideon etc. Including the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. We associate with this title.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis : "BY DEFINITION, God is a Person.


Hi Joe :

By whoes definition ? Yours ? And why do you feel the need to blow up words so big ? This type of large wording indicates yelling. And is a sign of anger from the poster.

If you study the word "person" from a biblical perspective, it is associated with mankind, and not spirit beings.

The Word of God tells us that God is Spirit, a Spirit being, which we call him by the words - The Holy Spirit. He is not a person ! A person is of mankind.

Manipulating what scripture is telling us is unrighteousness, and all unrighteousness is sin. Lest we forget ! ;)

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Westtexas

Show me one verse that is written --- "God the Son"

Is it not true, that Jesus the Christ is the -- "Son of God" ? So why twist it ? Change it ?

I gave you one a couple of days ago and you chose to ignore it but let's try again.

2 Peter 1:1-tou theou hemon kai sotaros lesou Christou (Hebrew/Greek Interlinear Bible) is translated "Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ"

2 Peter 1:11-tou kuriou hemon kai sotaros lesou Christou (Hebrew/Greek Interlinear Bible) is translated "Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"

The only difference in these two verses is theou (God) in verse 1 and kuriou (Lord) in verse 11. Non-trinitarians have no problem accepting verse 11 "Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" but when confronted with verse 1 and the only substitution is theou "God" for kuriou "Lord" will automatically start jumping up and down screaming "That's not what it means!!" Granville Sharp was a biblical Greek scholar in the late 1700's who came up with what today is called Granville Sharp's Rule. Non-trinitarian Greek scholars have attempted to disprove him for over 200 yrs and after all their study they are forced to admit that grammatically, the only interpretation for this verse is "Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ"

http://www.aomin.org/GRANVILL.html

Hi Westtexas :

You have yet to show me where in the scriptures it is written -- "God the son" ! All you have done is to start up another argument/debate that you claim justifies your usage of this false phrase ! Jesus the Christ is the -- "Son of God", and it is written this way for a purpose, and that purpose is for accuracy and truth.

As far as second Peter 1:1 , the verse states clearly, that it is talking about two and not one entity here.

KJV reads -- "the righteousness of God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ" < two entities here, not one ! Your rendering leaves out the word - "our" in the verse. Both God and His Son are our Saviour. 1. God gave His only begotten Son
2. Jesus Christ, gave of himself, and did the will of the Father who sent him. Jesus Christ did not do his own will. This is why Jesus prayed to his Father and his God , in order to do the full will of God and his Father.

Now I ask you once again. Show me a verse which clearly is written in the manner in which trinitarians write this phrase in this manner -- "God the Son".

Now, seeing we have taken this converstion to another level of thinking. Why not look at Hebrews 1:9 , which is another verse which clearly shows us, that Jesus Christ has a God. Which btw, is in harmony with John 20:17 which says the same.

Hebrews 1:9 - "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity ; therefore God, thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" < This is why Jesus the messiah, is called the anointed one. His God anointed him.

Christians believe in only one God ---- The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. < Ref: Ephesians 1:3

Also remember consistency is key. II Peter 1:1 shows two entities , as does many other references, such as Philippians 1:2 and Galatians 1:3 and many more !

 

[jasoncran]

the word for the Lord in the kjv and others in the ot,is commonly adonai or the yhwh. but el is god. in aramiac, not a title. but a person.

yhwh is the name of the lord,but one of many names.

jesus then worshiped a title when he said this . i go to the father, my god, and your god?
father btw is a title if you want that to be looked upon that way.
in this case neither is true. God is a person, and so is the father.

 

[dadof10]

I am asking you this because you say they are clear verses. So why can't you trinitarians agree on the Trinity doctrine? I am also wondering if you even agree with Fransis.

Where have I disagreed with Francis? Francis and I BOTH agree with the teaching of the Catholic Church. If I have mis-spoken or misunderstood a doctrine, I'll gladly admit it.

I was asking this because some trinitarians say Jesus is YHWH and they also claim Jesus is equal with His Father. If the verses you are backing up are so clear why so much confusion among trinitarians?

You did not ask if I disagreed with "some Trinitarians", you asked me if I disagreed with Francis. You're trying to drive a wedge where one doesn't exist. Divide and conquer is a sign of desperation for someone who is rapidly losing credibility and the arguments.

And why the trinity is so mystic if the verses are so clear?

I already answered this question, look it up. I think it was in....2006...in another thread. :biglol

 

[shad]

You did not ask if I disagreed with "some Trinitarians", you asked me if I disagreed with Francis. You're trying to drive a wedge where one doesn't exist. Divide and conquer is a sign of desperation for someone who is rapidly losing credibility and the arguments.

I was only asking because there are too many different opinions about the trinity. Why do nitpick my imperfect wording? You are lowering yourself with this kind of discourse. It is plain childish.

And why the trinity is so mystic if the verses are so clear?

I already answered this question, look it up. I think it was in....2006...in another thread. :biglol[/quote]

Now you are lying, I showed you I was not lying. Now you show me where you already answered.

thanks.

 

[Danus]

"if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?" Answer: ?

Shad, I'm sure there are multiple answers to your question. I've tried reading through your post to see if I can figure out what your thoughts are on this, but so far I'm baffled.

Jesus was God. I can't get my head around anything else. God the father, God the son, and God the holly spirit. One God in three forms or aspects. That's what Christianity teaches. However, other religions do not accept Christ as God. I'd have to say that any other view of the trinity falls outside orthodox Christianity, and that could be anything.

 

[shad]

"if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?" Answer: ?

Shad, I'm sure there are multiple answers to your question. I've tried reading through your post to see if I can figure out what your thoughts are on this, but so far I'm baffled.

Jesus was God. I can't get my head around anything else. God the father, God the son, and God the holly spirit. One God in three forms or aspects. That's what Christianity teaches. However, other religions do not accept Christ as God. I'd have to say that any other view of the trinity falls outside orthodox Christianity, and that could be anything.

Show us where it is said God the Son.

And this thread is about trinitarians ostracize other believers if they dont agree with their trinity doctrine. Why are you so baffled? Do you think it is acceptable if one does not agree with your doctrine they are not belivers?

thanks

 

[Danus]

Show us where it is said God the Son.

And this thread is about trinitarians ostracize other believers if they dont agree with their trinity doctrine. Why are you so baffled? Do you think it is acceptable if one does not agree with your doctrine they are not belivers?

thanks

Let's not call it "my doctrine". If someone does not believe in the trinity then that creates a questionable situation in regards to their belief. It could be anything.

 

[shad]

Show us where it is said God the Son.

And this thread is about trinitarians ostracize other believers if they dont agree with their trinity doctrine. Why are you so baffled? Do you think it is acceptable if one does not agree with your doctrine they are not belivers?

thanks

Let's not call it "my doctrine". If someone does not believe in the trinity then that creates a questionable situation in regards to their belief. It could be anything.

You still did not answer my question. where in the Bible does it say God the Son?

BTW, the trinity has been a stumbling block to many believes. This is creating division. So much so that they have been persecuting other believers because of this doctrine. It is sin to be a stumbling block and create division like that.

 

[watchman F]

"if one doest accept the trinity then what was jesus?" Answer: ?

Shad, I'm sure there are multiple answers to your question. I've tried reading through your post to see if I can figure out what your thoughts are on this, but so far I'm baffled.

Jesus was God. I can't get my head around anything else. God the father, God the son, and God the holly spirit. One God in three forms or aspects. That's what Christianity teaches. However, other religions do not accept Christ as God. I'd have to say that any other view of the trinity falls outside orthodox Christianity, and that could be anything.

I agree with you that Jesus is God plain and simple the Father, Son, and H.S. but that is no that the Trinity teaches