If Salvation is gift of God and not of works then why does Jesus say that I will spit you out ?

[BigSodaExposer]

I would say it is all of grace, and so would Paul.

"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me." 1 Corinthians 15:10 (ESV)

Notice, he said that he worked harder than all the Apostles, but that it was not him, but the grace of God that was with him that made him work harder. The most any of us can say, is that we are what we are by the grace of God. There will be no boast, except in the Cross of Jesus Christ, that he took a sinner like me and through the power of the Holy Spirit filling my heart with the love of God, changed who I am and what I do.

The question therefore shouldn't be, are you working hard enough? Rather, the question should be, is God at work in you, and have you responded to his call with repentance and faith?

But we are born into sin because of Adam. Turning away from sin requires acknowledging sin exist. How can one repent and feel sorry for sin if they do not truly understand what it is? How can one truly appreciate what Jesus did for you on the cross if you do not know what sin is? Example in point, for years I had illegally downloaded movies, music, and programs on my computer. I never thought too much about that other than it was "smart". Thats what a criminal thinks....its smarter to not pay money and still get something Vs the righteous way. But after becoming a christian I realized that doing that WAS stealing. And I never associated it with like stealing or shoplifting before. But I thought "hey this is stealing, might be digital, but still stealing" So I removed all that stuff from my computer. Started buying all music and programs the right way. I had folders and folders of illegally downloaded stuff burned on CD's and DVD's. I threw all that stuff away and didn't look back. In essence severing my physical, emotional, attachment to this stuff. I am not a rich man but took high pride in this high dollar stuff I had obtained illegally. In my mind it was not the same as real stealing, but I thought, Jesus doesnt approve of thieves so I'm gonna listen to that illegally downloaded music or use illegal stuff on a pc it is stealing and sin. Then a little bit later...(weeks?) I began realizing how worthless this stuff was.......How I never really had anything at all, only thought I did. And then I learned an even greater lesson. It was lust driving me to do obtain that stuff. The same lust I felt in my heart when I would do shoplifting and wickedness in my youth. This opened my eyes to "lust" and feelings of unrighteousness. So you see, it does require work, at first, to want to change. We are born into sin. It requires discipline and obedience to be a christian, jew, or muslim. It requires no discipline at all to blindly follow the world and commit sin. It is that want to change and admit you are a sinner, and admit you need Jesus, so that you may enter the kingdom of God, is a work, at first, once you refrain from sin awhile you understand how it was particularly bad for you, and you do not want to engage in it again. John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." How does one become born again? Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Luke 13;5"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

"The question therefore shouldn't be, are you working hard enough? Rather, the question should be, is God at work in you, and have you responded to his call with repentance and faith?" - what God wants me to do and what he wants you to do might be two different things. But all in Christ are serving the body of Christ to strengthen it and not weaken it.

 

[Deborah13]

I would say it is all of grace, and so would Paul.

"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me." 1 Corinthians 15:10 (ESV)

Notice, he said that he worked harder than all the Apostles, but that it was not him, but the grace of God that was with him that made him work harder. The most any of us can say, is that we are what we are by the grace of God. There will be no boast, except in the Cross of Jesus Christ, that he took a sinner like me and through the power of the Holy Spirit filling my heart with the love of God, changed who I am and what I do.

The question therefore shouldn't be, are you working hard enough? Rather, the question should be, is God at work in you, and have you responded to his call with repentance and faith?

Yes, by grace God will save us for we are not worthy.

Romans 10: 10-18, 21-26
As it is written:
10 “There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

:amen

 

[Doulos Iesou]

But we are born into sin because of Adam. Turning away from sin requires acknowledging sin exist. How can one repent and feel sorry for sin if they do not truly understand what it is? How can one truly appreciate what Jesus did for you on the cross if you do not know what sin is? Example in point, for years I had illegally downloaded movies, music, and programs on my computer. I never thought too much about that other than it was "smart". Thats what a criminal thinks....its smarter to not pay money and still get something Vs the righteous way. But after becoming a christian I realized that doing that WAS stealing. And I never associated it with like stealing or shoplifting before. But I thought "hey this is stealing, might be digital, but still stealing" So I removed all that stuff from my computer. Started buying all music and programs the right way. I had folders and folders of illegally downloaded stuff burned on CD's and DVD's. I threw all that stuff away and didn't look back. In essence severing my physical, emotional, attachment to this stuff. I am not a rich man but took high pride in this high dollar stuff I had obtained illegally. In my mind it was not the same as real stealing, but I thought, Jesus doesnt approve of thieves so I'm gonna listen to that illegally downloaded music or use illegal stuff on a pc it is stealing and sin. Then a little bit later...(weeks?) I began realizing how worthless this stuff was.......How I never really had anything at all, only thought I did. And then I learned an even greater lesson. It was lust driving me to do obtain that stuff. The same lust I felt in my heart when I would do shoplifting and wickedness in my youth. This opened my eyes to "lust" and feelings of unrighteousness. So you see, it does require work, at first, to want to change. We are born into sin. It requires discipline and obedience to be a christian, jew, or muslim. It requires no discipline at all to blindly follow the world and commit sin.

We don't open our own eyes to our sinful ways, that is the Holy Spirit's convicting power.

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: John 16:8 (ESV)

Again, this is all of grace. We do not acknowledge our sinfulness and need for a savior apart from the grace of God.

It is that want to change and admit you are a sinner, and admit you need Jesus, so that you may enter the kingdom of God, is a work, at first, once you refrain from sin awhile you understand how it was particularly bad for you, and you do not want to engage in it again.

Victory over sin isn't gained through understanding it's bad for you, while that may be helpful, it is not what the Bible ultimately describes as our reason for overcoming sin.

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 1 John 3:6 (ESV)

The bondage of habitual sin is overcoming by close relationship with Jesus, knowing him and being found in him. Being given new life in Christ, and recognizing that we are God's children, this supernatural power and deep love is what drives us to obedience and rejecting sin.

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." How does one become born again? Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Luke 13;5"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Yes, all these things are tied into our New Life in Christ, which is the foundation and goal of our transformation, to be conformed to be like Christ. It is the act of grace through the power of the Holy Spirit that transforms us through a process of sanctification. It is all of grace, even the act of coming to faith.

And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, Acts 18:27 (ESV)

"The question therefore shouldn't be, are you working hard enough? Rather, the question should be, is God at work in you, and have you responded to his call with repentance and faith?" - what God wants me to do and what he wants you to do might be two different things. But all in Christ are serving the body of Christ to strengthen it and not weaken it.

Perhaps in the roles that we play, or content of our actions, but the foundation and principles are the same. He wants us to walk with him continually, and to act in accordance with his commandments out of love.

 

[JLB]

Let's look at the text a little bit.

‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. Revelation 3:15-16 (ESV)

Jesus is using imagery of a displeasing drink. Imagine a lukewarm cup of coffee to make it more relevant to today. Most people like their coffee either iced or hot, and having a drink of lukewarm coffee would cause one to want to spit it out. Jesus' statement of "I know your works," is his introductory comments to 5 out of the 7 churches, which I believe is important to note. Moving on to the next verse.

For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Revelation 3:17-18 (ESV)

The people in Laodicea were very wealthy at this time, and this lulled them into a false sense of comfort and security, such to the degree that they became complacent in their faith. Jesus said that they did not realize that they were wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. These were the very things that represented those in a status opposite of what they were. Jesus then says in the next verse that they ought to buy from him, "gold refined by fire," in order that they might become rich. Notice, that these people already were rich in wordly possessions, so this is not actual gold. This I see is a reference to Christ, "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge," (Colossians 2:3 ESV) this passage would have been known to this church as Paul gave specific instructions for this letter to be read in Laodicea (Colossians 4:16). Essentially, the instructions of verse 18 are a metaphor for the instructions in verse 19, which reads.

Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Revelation 3:19 (ESV)

Jesus is expressing his love for them, in his adamant reproof. That they should no longer be lukewarm, but zealous. That they no longer be complacent, but repent.

The instructions to this Church seem very relevant for Church in America of the present day. We value comfort gained through material possessions, and the peace that the world provides rather than that which is gained through Christ. There is a complacency towards the things of God, such to the degree that there is almost no visible evidence of faith. The teachings of your pastor seem to be further evidence of this, with the very harmful teaching of easy-believism. That all you need to do is believe, and you're set.

Jesus, many times recounted the difficulty of being a disciple, that those who wished to follow him must deny themselves and take up their cross daily to follow him. That this road of Calvary is a narrow and difficult way that few will find, and many will choose the wide easy road that leads to destruction. So many have forgotten that our love for Christ is not demonstrated through profession, but through our deeds. Jesus said that our love for him is evidenced by keeping his commandments, and loving each other. Too many of us have added Christianity as a superficial layer of comfort to our pursuit of the American Dream, which is the ultimate pursuit of worldly comfort, the ambition to build bigger barns.

The gift of God, is received by grace through faith, and it is then to lead us into the works that God predestined that we should walk in.

This is a very hard and necessary teaching to grasp, and there are many here in America who willingly deny it and in doing so may lead many to destruction through traversing the road of comfort and security.

May we consider the cost of being Christ's disciple, and count our lives as cheap for the surpassing worth of knowing Him.

Great Post!

 

[phil marriner]

The works are the works within us not how many times you go to church.It is the growing of the fruits of the spirit within us which is our works and a life of praise worship and living a life of love justice and mercy towards others

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The works are the works within us not how many times you go to church.It is the growing of the fruits of the spirit within us which is our works and a life of praise worship and living a life of love justice and mercy towards others

So true, but so many will take comfort in their outward 'religious' workings ("many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not..." Matthew 7:21 NIV empahsis mine)

The fruit of the Spirit, not religious works, nor spiritual gifts, is what it means to truly know God intimately and to be at peace with him on the Day of Wrath.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A week ago I heard a preacher saying that Salvation is a gift of God, you don't have to do anything you just need to believe in Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved and for that he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9. Now I was wondering if daily bible reading and living according to bible is "work" and also I don't understand why does God say about the lukewarm Christian who are nothing but simply sitting Christians.

Didn't Jesus mean us to be hot, I mean fully surrendering our lives to Jesus being away from the world? Now when God says "Not of works" then what are these "works" Anyone has to share something?

Rev 3:15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

This is not a salvific issue.

Jesus is addressing the assembly of believers who are to represent Him, and to do His will as His Body on earth.

Jesus will spit them out of His mouth as a corporate body, and work with and through those individuals who have ears to hear and overcome.

 

[jonahmano]

Rev 3:15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

This is not a salvific issue.

Jesus is addressing the assembly of believers who are to represent Him, and to do His will as His Body on earth.

Jesus will spit them out of His mouth as a corporate body, and work with and through those individuals who have ears to hear and overcome.

So do you mean that he will spit them out --- it means of ministry work only? and it hasn't got anything to do with salvation?

 

[iLOVE]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A week ago I heard a preacher saying that Salvation is a gift of God, you don't have to do anything you just need to believe in Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved and for that he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9. Now I was wondering if daily bible reading and living according to bible is "work" and also I don't understand why does God say about the lukewarm Christian who are nothing but simply sitting Christians.

Didn't Jesus mean us to be hot, I mean fully surrendering our lives to Jesus being away from the world? Now when God says "Not of works" then what are these "works" Anyone has to share something?

Having one foot in the kingdom of God and one foot in the world God will spit you out. This christian has two minds. Whenever you agree with human wisdom over the word of God (bible) you have left the kingdom of God. You have disconnected yourself from the cross (grace). Your prayers are not heard until you repent and confess this great sin.

 

[JLB]

Rev 3:15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

This is not a salvific issue.

Jesus is addressing the assembly of believers who are to represent Him, and to do His will as His Body on earth.

Jesus will spit them out of His mouth as a corporate body, and work with and through those individuals who have ears to hear and overcome.

It seems that you believe that this word from the Lord only applies to that specific Church.

Is that the way you see it?


JLB

 

[Willie T]

Maybe someone covered this, but I didn't notice it.

Why would God like someone to be cold rather than at least a little on fire for Him? (Of course I have my thoughts on it, but would like to hear what other people think.)

 

[Dustoftheearth]

So do you mean that he will spit them out --- it means of ministry work only? and it hasn't got anything to do with salvation?

Yes

Jesus is addressing the Church.

As a believer, we are rich and wealthy, and have need of nothing, for we are co heirs with Christ and have been blessed with every spiritual blessing. Salvation is ‘Christ in you’. How can that be described as wretched, and miserable, and poor and blind, and naked?

As ambassadors in the world, our fellowship, our works and deeds and service etc.: are from being in Christ.

 

[chessman]

Matthew 16:23
But he turned around and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a cause for stumbling to me, because you are not intent on the things of God, but the things of people!” ​

Must be another one of those lose your salvation phrases like "spitting you out of my mouth" is, right?

Funny how there's not one single named person in the entire Bible (except maybe Peter there in Matt 16:23) that is said to have lost their salvation.

I love my children dearly. Always will. In fact, I'd take a bullet for them. But you know what, there's times when they just say and do things that just simply leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And they know better. I try to correct them and discipline them to train them into better Christian adults as best I can. It's hard sometimes though. I wish I had God's powers and God's Spirit to speak to them when they get into trouble.

Rev 3:15-16 continued (the rest of the story): 19 As many as I love, I reprove and discipline.

22 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”​

 

[agua.]

Matthew 16:23
But he turned around and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a cause for stumbling to me, because you are not intent on the things of God, but the things of people!” ​

Must be another one of those lose your salvation phrases like "spitting you out of my mouth" is, right?

Funny how there's not one single named person in the entire Bible (except maybe Peter there in Matt 16:23) that is said to have lost their salvation.

I love my children dearly. Always will. In fact, I'd take a bullet for them. But you know what, there's times when they just say and do things that just simply leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And they know better. I try to correct them and discipline them to train them into better Christian adults as best I can. It's hard sometimes though. I wish I had God's powers and God's Spirit to speak to them when they get into trouble.

Rev 3:15-16 continued (the rest of the story): 19 As many as I love, I reprove and discipline.

22 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Matthew 16:23
But he turned around and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a cause for stumbling to me, because you are not intent on the things of God, but the things of people!” ​

Must be another one of those lose your salvation phrases like "spitting you out of my mouth" is, right?

Funny how there's not one single named person in the entire Bible (except maybe Peter there in Matt 16:23) that is said to have lost their salvation.

I love my children dearly. Always will. In fact, I'd take a bullet for them. But you know what, there's times when they just say and do things that just simply leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And they know better. I try to correct them and discipline them to train them into better Christian adults as best I can. It's hard sometimes though. I wish I had God's powers and God's Spirit to speak to them when they get into trouble.

Rev 3:15-16 continued (the rest of the story): 19 As many as I love, I reprove and discipline.

22 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”​

I would be ashamed to teach others that since Jesus doesn't name the unmerciful servant or any second soil types by name then that means that what he's teaching is false--that showing contempt for the forgiveness you have received, and not continuing in faith in God's forgiveness will forfeit the forgiveness/justification you have. That's why what you teach is not a part of my doctrine. As I say, I'd be ashamed to teach that lack of specific names makes it not mean what he's so plainly teaching.

 

[agua.]

I would be ashamed to teach others that since Jesus doesn't name the unmerciful servant or any second soil types by name then that means that what he's teaching is false--that showing contempt for the forgiveness you have received, and not continuing in faith in God's forgiveness will forfeit the forgiveness/justification you have. That's why what you teach is not a part of my doctrine. As I say, I'd be ashamed to teach that lack of specific names makes it not mean what he's so plainly teaching.

I'm thinking to avoid the shame best you don't teach then Jethro. Stick quietly with your doctrine.

 

[agua.]

Maybe someone covered this, but I didn't notice it.

Why would God like someone to be cold rather than at least a little on fire for Him? (Of course I have my thoughts on it, but would like to hear what other people think.)

Yeah this is interesting for sure. I'm guessing both hot and cold are desirable temperatures of water but lukewarm is kinda yukky. It's an analogy to water imo and maybe if a Christian is cold there's little chance they will be perceived as a real Christian and be able to deceive whereas a lukewarm Christian ( in faith and deed ) may be perceived as a true believer and can bring the Church into disrepute. It's kinda like they are masquerading as "angels of light" imo in the same manner as false teachers do.

Oh looking back Doulos' post #17 is pretty comprehensive on this.

 

[chessman]

I would be ashamed to teach others that since Jesus doesn't name the unmerciful servant or any second soil types by name then that means that what he's teaching is false--that showing contempt for the forgiveness you have received, and not continuing in faith in God's forgiveness will forfeit the forgiveness/justification you have. That's why what you teach is not a part of my doctrine. As I say, I'd be ashamed to teach that lack of specific names makes it not mean what he's so plainly teaching.

First, I never said that since Jesus doesn't name the unmerciful servant, or a second soil type or name a blotted out name, that means OSAS is true.

That's simply you accusing me of saying something I never said. Which is odd..

I am not ashamed to point out that there's not one named person (out of thousands) in the Bible that God said was saved (one of His own) then lost their salvation. I've looked, He doesn't. People are free to make of that fact whatever they desire.

But if I were you, I'd be ashamed to teach God's not smart enough to know what names to write down in His book or not.

See, two can play that game!

 

[WIP]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't think God forgiving everyone who asks means he is not smart enough to not save those he knows will later depart from the faith (that is, spit them out). That contradicts his promise to receive everyone who comes to him for salvation.

In the parable of the unmerciful servant--which Jesus says is the way it is in the kingdom of God--the king forgives the debt of the servant who then has that forgiveness rescinded later. You see it as the king not being smart enough to know that ultimately the servant would not appreciate the grace he received. I see it as a picture of King Jesus who does not turn away anyone who comes to him, but who does expect us to not treat his gracious gift of forgiveness with indifference, carelessness, or contempt and who will spew out those who do so.