If Salvation is gift of God and not of works then why does Jesus say that I will spit you out ?

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Willie,

The way I understand it near Laodecia there were both hot and cold springs. A hot spring is good for bathing and medicinal purposes. A cold springs is good for refreshment and drinking, but a lukewarm spring isn't really good for either.The water in Laodecia on the other hand had lukewarm water that had a lot of minerals and made people sick.

I equate it to the concept of our sacrifice of service and worship to God either being a pleasing taste in the mouth of God, or a distasteful one in the mouth of God in line with the analogy of how God received the sacrifices of the Israelites in their temple worship, and with the useful analogy of the springs at Laodicea--one they'd understand--thrown in.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I can think of lots of cold and hot drinks that we like to drink and enjoy. I can't think of one off the top of my head that is best served lukewarm. Maybe there is one, but I think I get the point God is making.

Hey God, got time for a lukewarm cup of coffee or lemonade?

 

[chessman]

I equate it to the concept of our sacrifice of service and worship to God either being a pleasing taste in the mouth of God, or a distasteful one in the mouth of God.

I agree, so why did you say the other day that the phrase was a metaphor for losing salvation? Do we displease God enough with our sacrifices/services to the point we lose the salvation that we didn't earn in the first place? I thought Christ first loved us before we served Him.

I take it like it was intended to be understood by the church at the time. To use it otherwise seems out of order. It is a metaphor from Jesus to those He loves communicating the following aspects:

1, Jesus knows peoples hearts (Matt 9:4). And He also knows their works aren't always pleasing to Him. They are 'average', quiescent temperature with those around them and nothing really special. They need to repent and do better works. Step up their game, so to speak. Then, they would have Works more pleasing to His tastes.

2. Jesus desires more pleasing works from those He loves, for their benefit. So they are no longer naked or blind.

3. Jesus' use of the phrase "i am about to vomit/spit you out of my mouth, has nothing whatsoever to do with losing salvation. In fact, it's completely opposite from this meaning, if you think about it. It's about discipline and reprove to the ones Jesus loves (His church).

4. Jesus did and will advise those He loves to stop being so secure with the worldly things we have. And desire (and do) His things instead of the normal (lukewarm) things. His people need to get off their lazy rears.

Revelation 3:14-19 “And to the angel of the church [3] in Laodicea write:“This is what the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation, says: ‘I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot[1].

Would that you were cold or hot! [1,2]

Thus, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about to vomit you out of my mouth! [1,2,3,4]

Because you are saying, “I am rich, and have become rich, and I have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and pitiable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you[4] to buy from me gold refined by fire, in order that you may become rich, and white clothing, in order that you may be clothed and the shame of your nakedness [2] may not be revealed, and eye salve to smear on your eyes, in order that you may see [2]. As many as I love, I reprove and discipline.[3] Be zealous, therefore, and repent!

... depart from the faith (that is, spit them out).

Which is it, a metaphor for "departing from the faith" or for services that are displeasing to God?​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which is it, a metaphor for "departing from the faith" or for services that are displeasing to God?​

Both.

The displeasing service is the result of either an indifference, or a contempt for the forgiveness that person has received in Christ. Peter explains the lack of effective and productive service to God as being the result of forgetting that they have had their sins forgiven (2 Peter 1:9 NAS).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Chessman, how is it that you're missing that in the text we see that lukewarm believers are non-overcoming people. Overcomers are the one's who will inherit the kingdom, not those who don't overcome, thus the reason for the warning.

 

[chessman]

Chessman, how is it that you're missing that in the text we see that lukewarm believers are non-overcoming people. Overcomers are the one's who will inherit the kingdom, not those who don't overcome, thus the reason for the warning.

I miss it cause it's not in the text we are discussing. In fact, the text is talking to conquers, to people God loves and disciplines. How can you miss that? I here Him speaking in the text. Not so much your words on what the metaphor means. Both, huh? How do you get both metaphors from the text itself?

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock! If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, indeed I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also have conquered and have sat down with my Father on his throne.​

"I also!"
The only way you get your idea of what Jesus meant by "spit you out of God's mouth" is assumption on your part. Pretty bad assumption at that, given the text.

 

[jonahmano]

God is confused with a luke-warm believer. That's why he want us to be either hot or cold.
If we are hot then He can use us for His work and if we are cold then He can simply reject us.

The lukewarm attitude of a believer is bewildering to God also. It's like playing hide and seek with God for his great sacrifice. It's like making fun of the cross

 

[BigSodaExposer]

We don't open our own eyes to our sinful ways, that is the Holy Spirit's convicting power.

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: John 16:8 (ESV)

Again, this is all of grace. We do not acknowledge our sinfulness and need for a savior apart from the grace of God.


Victory over sin isn't gained through understanding it's bad for you, while that may be helpful, it is not what the Bible ultimately describes as our reason for overcoming sin.

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 1 John 3:6 (ESV)

The bondage of habitual sin is overcoming by close relationship with Jesus, knowing him and being found in him. Being given new life in Christ, and recognizing that we are God's children, this supernatural power and deep love is what drives us to obedience and rejecting sin.


Yes, all these things are tied into our New Life in Christ, which is the foundation and goal of our transformation, to be conformed to be like Christ. It is the act of grace through the power of the Holy Spirit that transforms us through a process of sanctification. It is all of grace, even the act of coming to faith.

And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, Acts 18:27 (ESV)


Perhaps in the roles that we play, or content of our actions, but the foundation and principles are the same. He wants us to walk with him continually, and to act in accordance with his commandments out of love.

Thanks. I have just recently realized the holy spirit's convicting power. I never realized thats why I was loosing this heavenly peace I've had at other times. I come off negative many times, but thats because sin bondage had me seeing the glass as half empty. Jesus Christ frees you from that and I now see the glass as half full not empty.

We don't open our own eyes to our sinful ways, that is the Holy Spirit's convicting power.

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: John 16:8 (ESV)

Again, this is all of grace. We do not acknowledge our sinfulness and need for a savior apart from the grace of God.


Victory over sin isn't gained through understanding it's bad for you, while that may be helpful, it is not what the Bible ultimately describes as our reason for overcoming sin.

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 1 John 3:6 (ESV)

The bondage of habitual sin is overcoming by close relationship with Jesus, knowing him and being found in him. Being given new life in Christ, and recognizing that we are God's children, this supernatural power and deep love is what drives us to obedience and rejecting sin.


Yes, all these things are tied into our New Life in Christ, which is the foundation and goal of our transformation, to be conformed to be like Christ. It is the act of grace through the power of the Holy Spirit that transforms us through a process of sanctification. It is all of grace, even the act of coming to faith.

And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, Acts 18:27 (ESV)


Perhaps in the roles that we play, or content of our actions, but the foundation and principles are the same. He wants us to walk with him continually, and to act in accordance with his commandments out of love.

Thanks for the reply. Everyone here has been very helpful to me. It wasn't through a local church I found Jesus but through faith. (about mid way through 2012). And I did change. I stopped caring about things I once did. And had a desire to actually read the bible. I found I suddenly could read it just like a book and discern/understand it. I lost the desire of worldly things. And only wanted to learn about Jesus and the bible. I come off as negative still many times and I do not mean to be. But so many years of sin and the devil left me feeling the glass was half empty and hopeless. Jesus does free you from all that. I just recently realized the holy spirits convicting power. I didn't know why I was losing peace and feeling guilty. You guys just have to be patient with me. I'm kinda dense. Like going from 17 to 18 years old and finding yourself in handcuffs and wondering "how did I get here?". It woulda been much better if a real pastor or church had taught me about these changes I would feel and experience. But this is how it is. And I trust thats how God wanted it to be. Galatians 3:2 "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" Comparing law VS grace is like comparing a glass half empty to a glass half full. Jesus is healing and reprogramming my brain. But the damage the devil and sin did to me is no joke. The words of Jesus are to be seen as loving request, not fear of death law commands like the old testament. People follow Christ because they want to be like him and allow his will to flow through them. You naturally lose the desire to sin when you are living in Christ. And you stop living for you and your own desires and live for him. Like this verse right here Luke 9:23 "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." You can read that in a positve or negative way. I've saw guys on youtube speak of that in a negative light, as if pleasure avoiding commands to the point of Buddism! But the reality is I guess that flesh goes against spirit and spirit against flesh. Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." The more you deny yourself the more you walk in spirit. The more God then I guess can use you as you have more of the divine in you and less of yourself.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Thanks. I have just recently realized the holy spirit's convicting power. I never realized thats why I was loosing this heavenly peace I've had at other times. I come off negative many times, but thats because sin bondage had me seeing the glass as half empty. Jesus Christ frees you from that and I now see the glass as half full not empty.



Thanks for the reply. Everyone here has been very helpful to me. It wasn't through a local church I found Jesus but through faith. (about mid way through 2012). And I did change. I stopped caring about things I once did. And had a desire to actually read the bible. I found I suddenly could read it just like a book and discern/understand it. I lost the desire of worldly things. And only wanted to learn about Jesus and the bible. I come off as negative still many times and I do not mean to be. But so many years of sin and the devil left me feeling the glass was half empty and hopeless. Jesus does free you from all that. I just recently realized the holy spirits convicting power. I didn't know why I was losing peace and feeling guilty. You guys just have to be patient with me. I'm kinda dense. Like going from 17 to 18 years old and finding yourself in handcuffs and wondering "how did I get here?". It woulda been much better if a real pastor or church had taught me about these changes I would feel and experience. But this is how it is. And I trust thats how God wanted it to be. Galatians 3:2 "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" Comparing law VS grace is like comparing a glass half empty to a glass half full. Jesus is healing and reprogramming my brain. But the damage the devil and sin did to me is no joke. The words of Jesus are to be seen as loving request, not fear of death law commands like the old testament. People follow Christ because they want to be like him and allow his will to flow through them. You naturally lose the desire to sin when you are living in Christ. And you stop living for you and your own desires and live for him. Like this verse right here Luke 9:23 "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." You can read that in a positve or negative way. I've saw guys on youtube speak of that in a negative light, as if pleasure avoiding commands to the point of Buddism! But the reality is I guess that flesh goes against spirit and spirit against flesh. Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." The more you deny yourself the more you walk in spirit. The more God then I guess can use you as you have more of the divine in you and less of yourself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I miss it cause it's not in the text we are discussing. In fact, the text is talking to conquers, to people God loves and disciplines. How can you miss that? I here Him speaking in the text. Not so much your words on what the metaphor means. Both, huh? How do you get both metaphors from the text itself?

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock! If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, indeed I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also have conquered and have sat down with my Father on his throne.​

"I also!"
The only way you get your idea of what Jesus meant by "spit you out of God's mouth" is assumption on your part. Pretty bad assumption at that, given the text.

"18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent." (Revelation 3:18-19 NAS)

The people who are spewed from the mouth of God are not overcomers. We know from other passages in Revelation that people who do not overcome are thrown into the lake of fire. The admonition of the passage is to repent and become an overcomer clothed in radiant works of righteousness (white garments) and to not be one who does not repent and who will then be thrown into the lake of fire at the end. No works of repentance means no overcoming. No overcoming results in the lake of fire.

 

[chessman]

The people who are spewed from the mouth of God are not overcomers.

The people Jesus was giving advise to were Christians in need of advise, reprove, discipline, repentance and most notably God's LOVE! Do I even need to mention Jacob?

You were caught applying the phrase "spit you out of God's mouth" inappropriately to mean "to become un-saved" (whatever that means). Plain and simple.

I advise you ...
[Who was getting this Godly advice?]

19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent."​

We know from other passages in Revelation that people who do not overcome are thrown into the lake of fire.

We know from Num 22 that The Angel of the Lord will 'crush the foot' of His blessed and loved people by using a talking donkey. But I wouldn't turn that phrase into a phrase that means 'to become un-saved' either.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The people Jesus was giving advise to were Christians in need of advise, reprove, discipline, repentance and most notably God's LOVE!

After they hear the advise of Christ the obligation of the Christian is to then repent. No repentance means no overcoming. No overcoming means no hope of the promise made to them.

You're taking some kind of false comfort that these people already have a relationship with Christ. But that is exactly the point--they are Christians who are then condemned for not being overcomers. The book says overcomers are cast into the lake of fire.

You were caught applying the phrase "spit you out of God's mouth" inappropriately to mean "to become un-saved" (whatever that means). Plain and simple.

The Lord endures the displeasing works of his people for a time. He's warning us that if you persist in your displeasing works you will be spewed out. I see this as being analogous to the cleansing out of the kingdom that Jesus spoke about in the gospels.

I advise you ...
[Who was getting this Godly advice?]

19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent."​

Exactly the point! These are Christians who, if they do not repent, will be condemned as those who did not overcome.

It looks like you're applying circular reasoning--they are Christians therefore getting spewed out can't possibly mean they are losing the promise of salvation. But if you would just read the passages shared here and in other threads you'd see that your beginning premise is wrong.

We know from Num 22 that The Angel of the Lord will 'crush the foot' of His blessed and loved people by using a talking donkey. But I wouldn't turn that phrase into a phrase that means 'to become un-saved' either.

Balaam was corrected by the Lord but then killed by the invading Israelites, not spared. Balaam is used as an example by Peter and Jude of those who 'have gone astray' and are OVERCOME by the world. Perhaps I will post excerpts from those passages to make the point. Balaam is hardly someone one should use to try to defend a false message about never being able to sin yourself out of the promise of salvation.

Remember, we have the promise of salvation (the Holy Spirit being the down payment or promissory note for later full payment--conditions applying):

24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it." (Romans 8: NAS)

Our obligation is to persevere to the end to realize the hope of that promise. No perseverance means no attaining to the hope of salvation.

 

[chessman]

After they hear the advise of Christ the obligation of the Christian is to then repent. No repentance means no overcoming. No overcoming means no hope of the promise made to them.
.

I thought RCC doctrine was prohibited on CFNet?

You're taking some kind of false comfort that these people already have a relationship with Christ.

just because salvation is hoped for doesn't mean it is a false hope or a false comfort.

24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? (Romans 8: NAS)​

Amen brother. You preach it. Now you're talking.

Best to just stick with the Scriptures though: 'Relationship with Christ'? Hmm, it says that God loved them. Satan has a 'relationship' with Christ.

Having "been saved" is a little more than a 'relationship'.

-they are Christians who are then condemned for not being overcomers. The book says overcomers are cast into the lake of fire.

The passage and phrase in question DOES NOT say anything about non-overcomers or the LoF. It says they were being disciplined by the God that loved them though.

As someone once said: "It looks like you're applying circular reasoning" by assuming they do not overcome.

The Lord endures the displeasing works of his people for a time.

. Amen. He also disciplines those He loves (His people) at times. Sometimes our displeasing works just leaves a bad taste in His mouth. Like when people mis-apply His Word.

Balaam was corrected by the Lord but then killed by the invading Israelites, not spared.

Jesus was killed by the Israelites too!

Balaam is hardly someone one should use to try to defend a false message about never being able to sin yourself out of the promise of salvation.

As opposed to you using the wicked talked about ELSEWHERE in Revelation or any other context?

 

[Obadiah]

Let's try hard to remember to continue keeping this conversation civil and be careful not to attack the other person by doing things like accusing them of spreading false teaching just because they have a different interpretation of unclear scripture.

Obadiah.

 

[jeff77]

I noticed the subject of overcomers was mentioned and that one must overcome to enter the kingdom. There is also what is called the "overcomers crown". I wonder if the overcoming required to enter the kingdom and the overcomers crown are 2 different things?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I thought RCC doctrine was prohibited on CFNet?

I'm pretty sure the RCC will tell you that faith is a condition of salvation. They just happen to be more in line with James who says that faith without overcoming works cannot save. But many Protestants believe that the faith of those who don't have works can still save them. That's not what James says.

just because salvation is hoped for doesn't mean it is a false hope or a false comfort.

The hope of salvation is a sure hope. Not like the 'hope' of hitting the lotto--that's a crap shoot. We must have faith, and have it to the end in order to make the hope that is sure ours. If we do that, the hope it secures is sure.

24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? (Romans 8: NAS)​

Amen brother. You preach it. Now you're talking.

And here's the rest of that gospel message:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also youreceived, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS)

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven..." (Colossians 1:21-23 NAS)

The condition for laying hold of sure hope of the kingdom to come is faith, and that you have it to the end. As long as you have faith, you are saved and have the sure hope of salvation. Stop believing and you do not have that hope anymore.

Having "been saved" is a little more than a 'relationship'.

Many who defend OSAS say only those who don't have the sure promise of the kingdom are unsaved. But we see, clearly, that there are indeed those who Christ has 'more than a relationship' with--as you point out--yet are spewed out of his mouth, nevertheless. Of course, OSAS, has to define the spewing out as not losing one's salvation, but we see earlier in these letters to the church that the lack of works that caused Christ to spew them out is what disqualifies them as an overcomer--non overcomers that he said will be cast into the lake of fire. A lukewarm believer is not an overcomer. Those who don't overcome are cast into the lake of Fire.

The passage and phrase in question DOES NOT say anything about non-overcomers or the LoF. It says they were being disciplined by the God that loved them though.

We can see from the text that the one's whom God will not spew from his mouth are the one's who overcome (you can't sit down with Christ on his throne and not be an overcomer):
"‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Revelation 3:21 NASB)

We see in the previous chapter that 'overcoming' is doing the works of God to the end:
"He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;" (Revelation 2:25 NASB)

Then we see that it is the overcomers who will be found in the book of life:
"He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5 NASB)

Later in Revelation we see the destiny for those who do not overcome (those who do not continue to do good and whom God will spew from his mouth) is the lake of fire, not some kind of intermediate punishment:
"14 This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15 NASB)

Connect the dots:

• Unacceptable works means you're not an overcomer.
• People who do not overcome have their names blotted out of the book of Life.
• Those who are not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire.

As someone once said: "It looks like you're applying circular reasoning" by assuming they do not overcome.

. Amen. He also disciplines those He loves (His people) at times. Sometimes our displeasing works just leaves a bad taste in His mouth. Like when people mis-apply His Word.

And if the person who does that doesn't repent they will not retain the promise of salvation they have received. That is the message of Christ to his churches: Repent! "He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death." (Revelation 2:11 NAS)

Jesus was killed by the Israelites too!

Explain. How does this mean Balaam is a good example of God's loving discipline that we can take comfort in? Peter and Jude explain quite well the fate of Balaam.

 

[chessman]

Explain. How does this mean Balaam is a good example of God's loving discipline that we can take comfort in? .

Right after you explain how the wicked people that He speaks about in other passages and contexts going to the LoF is a good example for the people that God loves and is disciplining in Rev 3:16

Ever thought about the other churches' messages? Do their "disciplining" phrases all mean "losing their salvation" to your ear?

1: Ephesus-"remove your lampstand" (remove your church building/status)
2: Smyrna- "throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested"
3: Pergamum-"make war with them with the sword from my mouth" (as Antipas, God's faithful witness, was even though he had the sin of "holding to Balaam's teaching")
4: Thyatira-“he will shepherd them with an iron rod; he will break them in pieces like jars made of clay,”
5: Sardis-"come like a thief," (to those who are "on alert" or should be)
6: Philadelphia-"take away your crown"
7: Laodicea-"vomit you out of my mouth!"

Hmm, an iron rod is shepherding. Prison is testing. Removing their lampstand is removing the church/building/status. Etc. none of these phrase mean "lose your salvation"

It's more reasonable to hear, with a proper ear; that to "vomit" is to reprove and discipline and test. Especially since that's what It says.

Why would you hear and even mention "The Lake of Fire" within the phrases to any of these churches? That's what needs explaining.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right after you explain how the wicked people that He speaks about in other passages and contexts going to the LoF is a good example for the people that God loves and is disciplining in Rev 3:16

I explained that. Now it's your turn. Tell us how we Christians can take comfort out of how God dealt with Balaam and what ultimately happened to him, and how Peter and Jude use him as an example of the ungodly who will be destroyed.

Ever thought about the other churches' messages? Do their "disciplining" phrases all mean "losing their salvation" to your ear?

1: Ephesus-"remove your lampstand" (remove your church building/status)
2: Smyrna- "throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested"
3: Pergamum-"make war with them with the sword from my mouth" (as Antipas, God's faithful witness, was even though he had the sin of "holding to Balaam's teaching")
4: Thyatira-“he will shepherd them with an iron rod; he will break them in pieces like jars made of clay,”
5: Sardis-"come like a thief," (to those who are "on alert" or should be)
6: Philadelphia-"take away your crown"
7: Laodicea-"vomit you out of my mouth!"

He warns them what will happen if they do not respond to his discipline. You say it's nothing to fear as far as salvation goes--that's it's just a temporal punishment. I showed you where those Christians who do not repent will end up.

Hmm, an iron rod is shepherding. Prison is testing. Removing their lampstand is removing the church/building/status. Etc. none of these phrase mean "lose your salvation"

It's more reasonable to hear, with a proper ear; that to "vomit" is to reprove and discipline and test. Especially since that's what It says.

Why would you hear and even mention "The Lake of Fire" within the phrases to any of these churches? That's what needs explaining.

I explained that those who don't respond to God's warning will go to the lake of fire. Why aren't you reading my posts?

Connect the dots there in Revelation and you see that the Christian who does not repent will be cast into the lake of fire. That is the ultimate fate of the unrepentant 'believer'. Where exactly in the sufferings and reproof of God that fate is sealed I don't know. Is that the point you're trying to make?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would you hear and even mention "The Lake of Fire" within the phrases to any of these churches? That's what needs explaining.

"He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5 NASB)

"15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15 NASB)

Connect the dots. To not overcome is to have your name erased from the book of life. Those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

Christians who do not respond to God's discipline will be cast into the lake of fire with the unbelievers.

 

[WIP]

I don't want to get into this discussion but I do have a question that may be relevant.

Does being saved mean one's name is written in the book of life? If so, I wonder how revelation 3:5 works when it says one's name can be erased.