If Salvation is gift of God and not of works then why does Jesus say that I will spit you out ?

[phil marriner]

The works are the developing the fruits of the spirit within. Love , patience, kindness etc. Some in the 1st century were back biters, slanderers, no natural effection etc. Because they thought that because they went to church there were ok and not interested in becoming Christ like. Does it sound familiar, yes, the same applies.Many who think throwing scriptures around make them righteous but have no effection, mercy,love etc etc towards ALL especially those related to them in the faith. He said he would spit them out because they were living in the generation who would see the end. Spitting them out does not mean he rejected them he means he spits their works of the flesh out of his mouth

 

[chessman]

depart from the faith (that is, spit them out)

As was pointed out already, Jesus saying He would spit out lukewarm members from His mouth was stated by Him (not me) as a metaphor for discipline and reproof.

Revelation 3:16 Thus, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about to vomit you out of my mouth! ​

Revelation 3:18-19 I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire, in order that you may become rich, and white clothing, in order that you may be clothed and the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed, and eye salve to smear on your eyes, in order that you may see. As many as I love, I reprove and discipline. Be zealous, therefore, and repent!
​

It's one thing to misunderstand a phrase and use it erroneously as in an honest mistake. It is quite another to be shown what it means and continue to misrepresent what it means to others. I don't buy your teaching, on this phrase, anyway.

Mark 8:23-25 And he took hold of the blind man’s hand and led him outside the village, and after spitting in his eyes, he placed his hands on him and asked him, “Do you see anything?” And looking up he said, “I see people, for I see them like trees walking around.” Then he placed his hands on his eyes again, and he opened his eyes and was cured, and could see everything clearly. ​

 

[phil marriner]

good point worthy of consideration

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As was pointed out already, Jesus saying He would spit out lukewarm members from His mouth was stated by Him (not me) as a metaphor for discipline and reproof.

Revelation 3:16 Thus, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about to vomit you out of my mouth! ​

Revelation 3:18-19 I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire, in order that you may become rich, and white clothing, in order that you may be clothed and the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed, and eye salve to smear on your eyes, in order that you may see. As many as I love, I reprove and discipline. Be zealous, therefore, and repent!
​

Why does reproof and discipline to bring someone back to repentance mean the punishment for not coming back to repentance can not be loss of salvation?

It's one thing to misunderstand a phrase and use it erroneously as in an honest mistake. It is quite another to be shown what it means and continue to misrepresent what it means to others.

I agree. And I'll do you one better. How can people read the plain words of the Bible that you will lose your salvation if you do not continue if faith to the end?

Staying saved is conditioned on having faith to the end. It is entirely possible to be spewed out of the mouth of God in a loss of salvation: Colossians 1:22-23 NASB

This inclination for so many to resist plainly written words is one of the great mysteries and frustrations of the faith that has made me consider dropping out of contact with the church altogether in these last few years I have left. How can people do that? I don't get it?

 

[chessman]

Why does reproof and discipline to bring someone back to repentance mean the punishment for not coming back to repentance can not be loss of salvation?

Because God loves the Few and He knows which ones will walk with Him and which ones will not. Those that will not, wouldn't be in God's mouth to begin with.:

Revelation 3:4-5, 15, 19 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not defiled their clothing, and they will walk with me in white, because they are worthy.

The one who conquers in this way will be dressed in white clothing, and I will never erase his name from the book of life, and I will declare his name before my Father and before his angels. ​

‘I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! ​

As many as I love, I reprove and discipline. Be zealous, therefore, and repent! ​

It is entirely possible to be spewed out of the mouth of God in a loss of salvation:

I see you still think Jesus' use of the phrase "spewed out of the mouth of God" is a reference to losing one's salvation. I don't. We disagree. I have my reasons, you have yours.

Would that you were cold or hot!​

When's the last time God didn't get His way?

If you drop all contact with a Godly church to go it alone, that's a mistake.

If you leave an imperfect church and find or start a perfect one, give me a shout. I'll move there. Or not, I'd just mess it up.

 

[Willie T]

Yeah this is interesting for sure. I'm guessing both hot and cold are desirable temperatures of water but lukewarm is kinda yukky. It's an analogy to water imo and maybe if a Christian is cold there's little chance they will be perceived as a real Christian and be able to deceive whereas a lukewarm Christian ( in faith and deed ) may be perceived as a true believer and can bring the Church into disrepute. It's kinda like they are masquerading as "angels of light" imo in the same manner as false teachers do.

Oh looking back Doulos' post #17 is pretty comprehensive on this.

I really don't think God cares too much how we are perceived. I think this is speaking to the most important thing God seems to care about, and that is that we believe on His son. In fact, nearly the whole book of Galatians addresses us believing TOTALLY in Jesus, and not trying to mix back in law and works.

"Hot" of course, seems to indicate a person who is sold out to Jesus, and depends upon nothing else.

"Cold" might be all unbelievers before hearing anything about Jesus... just dependent upon "cold" stone tablets of Law and our own efforts. After all, it was for this kind of thinking that the Law was given, so that we could understand that such was not God's will. God can work with these kinds of people, because they still need to hear the gospel, and may well respond.

Then, we find the lukewarm people. They are not completely trusting in Jesus, yet they HAVE heard, and sort of moved to follow Him... but not all the way... they still try to hedge their bets with Law-Keeping and Works. Well, this is a dilemma.

Since they don't totally trust Jesus, they really can't let themselves be saved..... and mixing back in some Law and Works, moves them even farther from the FREE gift of salvation. In this position of believing the delusion of being saved (without totally trusting in it), they find themselves out on a limb...... They don't trust Jesus, let they can't LEARN about him, afresh, because they truly believe they already know all they need to know.

What a predicament to be in!

 

[phil marriner]

There is a perfect church .The one not built with human hands or made with bricks and mortar. The one where we can enter right into the presence of God himself. The one Paul spoke about in Hebrews do you know it or enter into man made buildings where God does not dwell
"Get out of her my people". The Lord is setting captives free to enter into his church not counterfeit KIngdoms

 

[phil marriner]

Thats because some dont know where their feet are. Some have two feet in the Kingdom, some one foot in the kingdom one in the world ,some both in the world and others dancing in and out of both.I did a lot of dancing in my time .Until i totally surrendered to the KIng

 

[agua.]

I really don't think God cares too much how we are perceived. I think this is speaking to the most important thing God seems to care about, and that is that we believe on His son. In fact, nearly the whole book of Galatians addresses us believing TOTALLY in Jesus, and not trying to mix back in law and works.

Mat 5:16 KJV Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

"Hot" of course, seems to indicate a person who is sold out to Jesus, and depends upon nothing else.

"Cold" might be all unbelievers before hearing anything about Jesus... just dependent upon "cold" stone tablets of Law and our own efforts. After all, it was for this kind of thinking that the Law was given, so that we could understand that such was not God's will. God can work with these kinds of people, because they still need to hear the gospel, and may well respond.

Then, we find the lukewarm people. They are not completely trusting in Jesus, yet they HAVE heard, and sort of moved to follow Him... but not all the way... they still try to hedge their bets with Law-Keeping and Works. Well, this is a dilemma.

Since they don't totally trust Jesus, they really can't let themselves be saved..... and mixing back in some Law and Works, moves them even farther from the FREE gift of salvation. In this position of believing the delusion of being saved (without totally trusting in it), they find themselves out on a limb...... They don't trust Jesus, let they can't LEARN about him, afresh, because they truly believe they already know all they need to know.

What a predicament to be in!

Nice assessment ! Do you think these lukewarm Christians are saved. ie. would you call them true believers at any stage ?

 

[agua.]

As was pointed out already, Jesus saying He would spit out lukewarm members from His mouth was stated by Him (not me) as a metaphor for discipline and reproof.

Revelation 3:16 Thus, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about to vomit you out of my mouth! ​

Revelation 3:18-19 I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire, in order that you may become rich, and white clothing, in order that you may be clothed and the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed, and eye salve to smear on your eyes, in order that you may see. As many as I love, I reprove and discipline. Be zealous, therefore, and repent!
​

It's one thing to misunderstand a phrase and use it erroneously as in an honest mistake. It is quite another to be shown what it means and continue to misrepresent what it means to others. I don't buy your teaching, on this phrase, anyway.

Mark 8:23-25 And he took hold of the blind man’s hand and led him outside the village, and after spitting in his eyes, he placed his hands on him and asked him, “Do you see anything?” And looking up he said, “I see people, for I see them like trees walking around.” Then he placed his hands on his eyes again, and he opened his eyes and was cured, and could see everything clearly. ​

Ah yeah this makes sense. I was tossing around the idea that the Lukewarm Christians may have been of the type who Jesus never knew.

 

[Willie T]

Mat 5:16 KJV Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.



Nice assessment ! Do you think these lukewarm Christians are saved. ie. would you call them true believers at any stage ?

If my thoughts are anywhere near the intent of the passage, then I would have to say they are saved, but that they might catch a period of experiencing some of that non-lethal "wrath" the Bible often mentions, where they will find it difficult goings for awhile until they come around to dropping all the Law and "works" that they had been depending on before.

 

[agua.]

If my thoughts are anywhere near the intent of the passage, then I would have to say they are saved, but that they might catch a period of experiencing some of that non-lethal "wrath" the Bible often mentions, where they will find it difficult goings for awhile until they come around to dropping all the Law and "works" that they had been depending on before.

Yeah after re-reading Chessman's post I tend to agree with you.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

I agree. And I'll do you one better. How can people read the plain words of the Bible that you will lose your salvation if you do not continue if faith to the end?

Staying saved is conditioned on having faith to the end. It is entirely possible to be spewed out of the mouth of God in a loss of salvation: Colossians 1:22-23 NASB

If I may try:

Jesus tells us that the seed on the good ground does not produce fruit straight away. Although Jesus would know who are His from the beginning, we would not know who those are until we see the fruit. That (if the word is received with understanding) fruit will be evidenced only after much patience.

Jesus said we will be known by our fruit (not simply by our good confession).

This (imho) is why we should constantly give words of encouragement and exhortation to continue in the faith, until we see the fruit. We should not simply accept that someone who has made the good confession is saved (received the word with understanding)

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Mat 5:16 KJV Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.



Nice assessment ! Do you think these lukewarm Christians are saved. ie. would you call them true believers at any stage ?

Hi agua

I think we have to accept that (in the main) they were saved.

How could they be spit out, if they were not first ‘in Christ’?

 

[agua.]

Hi agua

I think we have to accept that (in the main) they were saved.

How could they be spit out, if they were not first ‘in Christ’?

Yeah true.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If my thoughts are anywhere near the intent of the passage, then I would have to say they are saved, but that they might catch a period of experiencing some of that non-lethal "wrath" the Bible often mentions, where they will find it difficult goings for awhile until they come around to dropping all the Law and "works" that they had been depending on before.

Just curious, how does one come to the conclusion that this group of people at Laodicea are being chastised for trying to be justified by the law?

 

[Willie T]

Just curious, how does one come to the conclusion that this group of people at Laodicea are being chastised for trying to be justified by the law?

See post # 46.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

See post # 46.

Gotcha.

You do see it possible that lukewarm simply means sometimes you are faithful, and sometimes you are not, regardless of any law issues, right?

I would tend to argue that an attitude of law actually produces a very faithful person, outwardly. After all, their eternal soul depends on it. That's why I always wonder why many people equate disobedience with trying to keep the law (l know why, but let's not go there, lol).

I see the present condition of the church as being that of the Laodiceans. We are sure we are wise, faithful, and rich in the things of God and pleasing to God, but we, like the Pharisees, are underneath it all, despite our proclamation to the contrary, blind and naked and poor.

The similarity between the Pharisee of Jesus' day and the Pharisee of today is not this matter of legalistic law keeping, but of being hypocritical of what we teach and proclaim. For the Pharisee of the Bible it was hypocrisy in regard to the law of Moses. For the Pharisee of today it is hypocrisy in regard to grace. We talk a good talk, but it just hasn't translated very well into actually fulfilling that which our message of grace says it will.

So I don't see it as a law message, but one of hypocrisy. The church at Laodicea is a church of hypocrites. They say and do and believe one thing about grace, and see themselves as faithful to that, but are not that at all in reality. It's definitely a Pharisee problem, but not in regard to the law of Moses, but in regard to hypocrisy.

 

[Willie T]

Gotcha.

You do see it possible that lukewarm simply means sometimes you are faithful, and sometimes you are not, regardless of any law issues, right?

I would tend to argue that an attitude of law actually produces a very faithful person, outwardly. After all, their eternal soul depends on it. That's why I always wonder why many people equate disobedience with trying to keep the law (l know why, but let's not go there, lol).

I see the present condition of the church as being that of the Laodiceans. We are sure we are wise, faithful, and rich in the things of God and pleasing to God, but we, like the Pharisees, are underneath it all, despite our proclamation to the contrary, blind and naked and poor.

The similarity between the Pharisee of Jesus' day and the Pharisee of today is not this matter of legalistic law keeping, but of being hypocritical of what they teach and proclaim. For the Pharisee of the Bible it was hypocrisy in regard to the law of Moses. For the Pharisee of today it is hypocrisy in regard to grace. We talk a good talk, but it just hasn't translated very well into actually fulfilling that which our message of grace says it will.

So I don't see it as a law message, but one of hypocrisy. The church at Laodicea is a church of hypocrites. They say and do and believe one thing about grace, and see themselves as faithful to that, but are not that at all in reality. It's definitely a Pharisee problem, but not in regard to the law of Moses, but in regard to hypocrisy.

I definitely see your point.

 

[Butch5]

Maybe someone covered this, but I didn't notice it.

Why would God like someone to be cold rather than at least a little on fire for Him? (Of course I have my thoughts on it, but would like to hear what other people think.)

Hi Willie,

The way I understand it near Laodecia there were both hot and cold springs. A hot spring is good for bathing and medicinal purposes. A cold springs is good for refreshment and drinking, but a lukewarm spring isn't really good for either.The water in Laodecia on the other hand had lukewarm water that had a lot of minerals and made people sick.