If Salvation is gift of God and not of works then why does Jesus say that I will spit you out ?

[jonahmano]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A week ago I heard a preacher saying that Salvation is a gift of God, you don't have to do anything you just need to believe in Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved and for that he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9. Now I was wondering if daily bible reading and living according to bible is "work" and also I don't understand why does God say about the lukewarm Christian who are nothing but simply sitting Christians.

Didn't Jesus mean us to be hot, I mean fully surrendering our lives to Jesus being away from the world? Now when God says "Not of works" then what are these "works" Anyone has to share something?

 

[reba]

The difference maybe doing what we do out of love of the Lord not for gain

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now when God says "Not of works" then what are these "works"

Works of righteousness.

Even though you can not save yourself by doing righteous works, you can still condemn yourself by not doing them if that disobedience is a conscious decision to trample on and reject the forgiveness of God in Christ.

Works of righteousness are the evidence of that which saves a person--faith in Jesus Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin. We are commanded to have works of righteousness, not so we can be justified by them, but so we can know for ourselves that we are continuing in God's gracious gift of forgiveness and will thus be saved on the Day of Wrath.

"10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things (see vs.5-9), you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:10-11 NIV)

 

[JLB]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A week ago I heard a preacher saying that Salvation is a gift of God, you don't have to do anything you just need to believe in Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved and for that he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9. Now I was wondering if daily bible reading and living according to bible is "work" and also I don't understand why does God say about the lukewarm Christian who are nothing but simply sitting Christians.

Didn't Jesus mean us to be hot, I mean fully surrendering our lives to Jesus being away from the world? Now when God says "Not of works" then what are these "works" Anyone has to share something?

18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:18-20

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

The works of the law and the works of faith are two separate functions.

Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Galatians 3:12


Works of faith = the effort obedience to God requires.

Works of the Law = obeying the rituals and ordinances that the law of Moses requires.


Let's discuss the difference in the works of the law of Moses and the works of faith.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jonahmano,
"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18), for example, can not justify you. But one can not be saved if their faith does not satisfy that lawful work of righteousness (and others) for the reasons I shared.

 

[gr8grace3]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A week ago I heard a preacher saying that Salvation is a gift of God, you don't have to do anything you just need to believe in Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved and for that he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9. Now I was wondering if daily bible reading and living according to bible is "work" and also I don't understand why does God say about the lukewarm Christian who are nothing but simply sitting Christians.

Didn't Jesus mean us to be hot, I mean fully surrendering our lives to Jesus being away from the world? Now when God says "Not of works" then what are these "works" Anyone has to share something?

If we wanted to make both Eph 2:8-9 and Revelation 3:15-16 salvation verses, Revelation 3:15-16 would read more like this........

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will send thee to the lake of fire forever and ever.

This is a discipline(harsh) verse for the lukewarm believer, not a lake of fire verse.

 

[JLB]

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." 9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. 13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:1-13

Paul is speaking to those who know the law and have read the scriptures.

He is making a legal argument for faith as contrasted to the law of Moses.

Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness... Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

These phrase's if taken out of context would indicate we are to do nothing with the new life God has given through faith in Jesus Christ.

However the point Paul is making is Salvation can not be obtained through the works of the law of Moses.

Again Paul is addressing those who are know the law, in order to convince them that righteousness [right standing with God] comes by believing God, as contrasted by the works of the Law of Moses.


JLB

 

[reba]

Let's discuss the difference in the works of the law of Moses and the works of faith.


JLB

Lets let the OP decide the direction of the thread... Admin

 

[JLB]

If we wanted to make both Eph 2:8-9 and Revelation 3:15-16 salvation verses, Revelation 3:15-16 would read more like this........

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will send thee to the lake of fire forever and ever.

This is a discipline(harsh) verse for the lukewarm believer, not a lake of fire verse.

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Revelation 3:5-6




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lets let the OP decide the direction of the thread... Admin

Exactly what I was thinking. :yes

 

[Deborah13]

Works of righteousness.

Even though you can not save yourself by doing righteous works, you can still condemn yourself by not doing them if that disobedience is a conscious decision to trample on and reject the forgiveness of God in Christ.

Works of righteousness are the evidence of that which saves a person--faith in Jesus Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin. We are commanded to have works of righteousness, not so we can be justified by them, but so we can know for ourselves that we are continuing in God's gracious gift of forgiveness and will thus be saved on the Day of Wrath.

"10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things (see vs.5-9), you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:10-11 NIV)

:amen

I will post one of the verse Jethro has referred to,
2Pe 1:7 and in the piety the brotherly kindness, and in the brotherly kindness the love;

 

[Navigator]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A week ago I heard a preacher saying that Salvation is a gift of God, you don't have to do anything you just need to believe in Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved and for that he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9. Now I was wondering if daily bible reading and living according to bible is "work" and also I don't understand why does God say about the lukewarm Christian who are nothing but simply sitting Christians.

Didn't Jesus mean us to be hot, I mean fully surrendering our lives to Jesus being away from the world? Now when God says "Not of works" then what are these "works" Anyone has to share something?

To RECEIVE salvation, you need nothing but faith, but to truly live that salvation out, works are necessary. As someone else noted, "faith without works is dead." We receive salvation from the sacrifice of Christ and His resurrection, and Scripture tells us that "while we were still sinners, Christ died for us," which tells us that it has nothing to do with our worthiness or cleanliness through our works.

The Revelation passage was written about a church in Laodicea, and had meaningful connections to what the people of Laodicea would have been experiencing. Jesus says that the church is lukewarm, it is neither hot (on fire for Jesus) or cold (lowly and in need of Jesus), they were right in the middle. This has significance because the water the people of this city would drink every day would be lukewarm. It was neither hot nor cold. Jesus hopes that they are one or the other so He could use them. If they are in a time of being cold, lowly, they can look to Him wholly as their hope, or if they are hot, they can boldly do His Will in their city, but they are neither, and it's as disgusting to Jesus as drinking lukewarm water probably was for the townspeople.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is a discipline(harsh) verse for the lukewarm believer, not a lake of fire verse.

We can see from the text that the one's whom God will not spew from his mouth are the one's who overcome:

"‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Revelation 3:21 NASB)

We see in the previous chapter that 'overcoming' is doing the works of God to the end:

"He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;" (Revelation 2:25 NASB)

Then we see that it is the overcomers who will be found in the book of life:

"He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5 NASB)

Later in Revelation we see the destiny for those who do not overcome (those who do not continue to do good and whom God will spew from his mouth) is the lake of fire, not some kind of intermediate punishment:

"14 This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15 NASB)

People who are spewed from the mouth of God are not overcomers. People who do not overcome are thrown into the lake of fire. The admonition of the passage is to repent and become an overcomer clothed in radiant works of righteousness (white garments) and to not be one who does not repent and who will then be thrown into the lake of fire at the end. No works of repentance means no overcoming. No overcoming results in the lake of fire.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To RECEIVE salvation, you need nothing but faith, but to truly live that salvation out, works are necessary. As someone else noted, "faith without works is dead." We receive salvation from the sacrifice of Christ and His resurrection, and Scripture tells us that "while we were still sinners, Christ died for us," which tells us that it has nothing to do with our worthiness or cleanliness through our works.

The Revelation passage was written about a church in Laodicea, and had meaningful connections to what the people of Laodicea would have been experiencing. Jesus says that the church is lukewarm, it is neither hot (on fire for Jesus) or cold (lowly and in need of Jesus), they were right in the middle. This has significance because the water the people of this city would drink every day would be lukewarm. It was neither hot nor cold. Jesus hopes that they are one or the other so He could use them. If they are in a time of being cold, lowly, they can look to Him wholly as their hope, or if they are hot, they can boldly do His Will in their city, but they are neither, and it's as disgusting to Jesus as drinking lukewarm water probably was for the townspeople.

Notice how this lukewarm state is characterized by a lack of faith, no works of righteousness, and no spiritual eyes to see, but thinking you're saved nonetheless.

It's another passage of the Bible to help us understand that works of righteousness is how we can tell if we are rich in faith and have spiritual eyes that can see. A lack of righteous work is the sign of spiritual bankruptcy, nakedness, and blindness. A spiritual bankruptcy, nakedness, and blindness that will condemn a person to the lake of fire, not simply rob them of God's praise for work well done.

 

[MarkT]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A week ago I heard a preacher saying that Salvation is a gift of God, you don't have to do anything you just need to believe in Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved and for that he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9. Now I was wondering if daily bible reading and living according to bible is "work" and also I don't understand why does God say about the lukewarm Christian who are nothing but simply sitting Christians.

Didn't Jesus mean us to be hot, I mean fully surrendering our lives to Jesus being away from the world? Now when God says "Not of works" then what are these "works" Anyone has to share something?

When you are born again it is God working in you to do the work of God. If you are not born again, then it is just your work and your work doesn't mean anything to God.

 

[Butch5]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A week ago I heard a preacher saying that Salvation is a gift of God, you don't have to do anything you just need to believe in Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved and for that he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9. Now I was wondering if daily bible reading and living according to bible is "work" and also I don't understand why does God say about the lukewarm Christian who are nothing but simply sitting Christians.

Didn't Jesus mean us to be hot, I mean fully surrendering our lives to Jesus being away from the world? Now when God says "Not of works" then what are these "works" Anyone has to share something?

Hi Jonahmano,

The quote from Eph 2:8 is often misunderstood. From what you said in the OP it seems to me that the preacher you spoke of misunderstands it. Paul was addressing a problem that he encountered in his ministry. There was a group of Jewish believers who were coming behind Paul telling his Gentile converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. Paul argues against their teaching teaching that it is not necessary to do the works of the Mosaic Law in order to be saved. What Paul is talking about in Eph 2:8 is that no one is saved by keeping the Mosaic Law. He is not saying that there is nothing that a person has to do towards their salvation. That idea runs counter not only to Scripture but to Paul's teaching also. The problem is that Many times today Christians take passages out of context to try to support what they have been told. The Scriptures tell us that we must do certain things to be saved, those things don't save us but must be done in order to be saved.

If you read Acts 15 you'll see where Paul goes to Jerusalem to the other apostles to settle this question. He also addresses it in Galatians.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

A week ago I heard a preacher saying that Salvation is a gift of God, you don't have to do anything you just need to believe in Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved and for that he quoted Ephesians 2:8-9. Now I was wondering if daily bible reading and living according to bible is "work" and also I don't understand why does God say about the lukewarm Christian who are nothing but simply sitting Christians.

Didn't Jesus mean us to be hot, I mean fully surrendering our lives to Jesus being away from the world? Now when God says "Not of works" then what are these "works" Anyone has to share something?

Let's look at the text a little bit.

‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. Revelation 3:15-16 (ESV)

Jesus is using imagery of a displeasing drink. Imagine a lukewarm cup of coffee to make it more relevant to today. Most people like their coffee either iced or hot, and having a drink of lukewarm coffee would cause one to want to spit it out. Jesus' statement of "I know your works," is his introductory comments to 5 out of the 7 churches, which I believe is important to note. Moving on to the next verse.

For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Revelation 3:17-18 (ESV)

The people in Laodicea were very wealthy at this time, and this lulled them into a false sense of comfort and security, such to the degree that they became complacent in their faith. Jesus said that they did not realize that they were wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. These were the very things that represented those in a status opposite of what they were. Jesus then says in the next verse that they ought to buy from him, "gold refined by fire," in order that they might become rich. Notice, that these people already were rich in wordly possessions, so this is not actual gold. This I see is a reference to Christ, "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge," (Colossians 2:3 ESV) this passage would have been known to this church as Paul gave specific instructions for this letter to be read in Laodicea (Colossians 4:16). Essentially, the instructions of verse 18 are a metaphor for the instructions in verse 19, which reads.

Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Revelation 3:19 (ESV)

Jesus is expressing his love for them, in his adamant reproof. That they should no longer be lukewarm, but zealous. That they no longer be complacent, but repent.

The instructions to this Church seem very relevant for Church in America of the present day. We value comfort gained through material possessions, and the peace that the world provides rather than that which is gained through Christ. There is a complacency towards the things of God, such to the degree that there is almost no visible evidence of faith. The teachings of your pastor seem to be further evidence of this, with the very harmful teaching of easy-believism. That all you need to do is believe, and you're set.

Jesus, many times recounted the difficulty of being a disciple, that those who wished to follow him must deny themselves and take up their cross daily to follow him. That this road of Calvary is a narrow and difficult way that few will find, and many will choose the wide easy road that leads to destruction. So many have forgotten that our love for Christ is not demonstrated through profession, but through our deeds. Jesus said that our love for him is evidenced by keeping his commandments, and loving each other. Too many of us have added Christianity as a superficial layer of comfort to our pursuit of the American Dream, which is the ultimate pursuit of worldly comfort, the ambition to build bigger barns.

The gift of God, is received by grace through faith, and it is then to lead us into the works that God predestined that we should walk in.

This is a very hard and necessary teaching to grasp, and there are many here in America who willingly deny it and in doing so may lead many to destruction through traversing the road of comfort and security.

May we consider the cost of being Christ's disciple, and count our lives as cheap for the surpassing worth of knowing Him.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

It wasn't till I came to this forum that I truly grasped the faith VS works thing. Thanks everyone for helping me to understand that. The more I think about it now, I think its actually a combination of grace, faith, and works. It is grace in that God is offering you a free gift that you don't have to accept. It is works to overcome the world and leave your comfort zone and seek the truth, to accept your life is not the truth and trust in Jesus, it is faith because no one can see God, prayers are invisible, angels are invisible, faith to believe in the bible as being the correct origin and destiny of man VS faith in science being the correct origin and destiny of man.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It wasn't till I came to this forum that I truly grasped the faith VS works thing. Thanks everyone for helping me to understand that. The more I think about it now, I think its actually a combination of grace, faith, and works. It is grace in that God is offering you a free gift that you don't have to accept. It is works to overcome the world and leave your comfort zone and seek the truth, to accept your life is not the truth and trust in Jesus, it is faith because no one can see God, prayers are invisible, angels are invisible, faith to believe in the bible as being the correct origin and destiny of man VS faith in science being the correct origin and destiny of man.

I would say it is all of grace, and so would Paul.

"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me." 1 Corinthians 15:10 (ESV)

Notice, he said that he worked harder than all the Apostles, but that it was not him, but the grace of God that was with him that made him work harder. The most any of us can say, is that we are what we are by the grace of God. There will be no boast, except in the Cross of Jesus Christ, that he took a sinner like me and through the power of the Holy Spirit filling my heart with the love of God, changed who I am and what I do.

The question therefore shouldn't be, are you working hard enough? Rather, the question should be, is God at work in you, and have you responded to his call with repentance and faith?

 

[WIP]

Yes, by grace God will save us for we are not worthy.

Romans 10: 10-18, 21-26
As it is written:
10 “There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.