If we are completely cleansed of all sin, for which sin will you be Judged?

[Butch5]

Uh, yes, that is exactly the encounter where those Words were spoken.



Where in the world did you get that idea from?

Your initial statement was that these Words were only to Apostles:

John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

I pointed to the fact of Luke 4:4 that 'all' of Gods Words are applicable to MAN, not just those to whom same were spoken to, as many often try to claim.

s

He Robert quoted the verse from John 15. I said Jesus was speaking to the apostles. The context shows that Jesus was speaking to the apostles. Then you posted a verse from Luke that has nothing to do with what Robert or I said.

 

[Mike S]

I agree that we must take the entire Bible, however, works cannot be the evidence of faith. Without works faith is dead and can do nothing. Works give life to faith.

Tens of millions of Christians disagree with you.



A Faith That Is Not Alone - http://www.canonglenn.com/category/good-works/


Being right with God is by faith alone, but not by a faith that stands alone. No place exists in the Christian life for claiming a “born from above” experience while displaying no evidence of a changed life. A born-again life is a life that allows Christ to live in and through us dispensing the fruit of the Spirit openly and widely (1 John 4:9).

Good works are described as the fruit of faith. Good works are not produced by the Christian, but good works are borne in the life of the Christian by the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23). We are fruit-bearers not fruit-producers: enabling grace works out the life of Christ in us.

Good works, or deeds, display to the world the changed heart that Christ has created in us (Matt. 7:15-20). Faith in the finished work of Christ expresses itself in deeds done for God and others. Good works are the fruit of faith, they follow after justification, they are evidence of a changed heart, and therefore, flow from a heart transformed by the Cross.

In the end, Martin Luther’s old formula still sums things up nicely:

"We are saved by faith alone [not our works], but not by a faith that remains alone.” Nothing we can do merit God’s grace and favor, we can only believe that he has given it to us in Jesus Christ and receive it by faith. But if we truly believe and trust in the one who sacrificially served us, it changes us into people who sacrificially serve God and our neighbors. If we say “I believe in Jesus” but it doesn’t affect the way we live, the answer is not that now we need to add hard work to our faith so much as that we haven’t truly understood or believed in Jesus at all. Timothy Keller,The Prodigal God: Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith http://www.amazon.com/Prodigal-God-..._0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309906641&sr=1-1

 

[smaller]

He Robert quoted the verse from John 15. I said Jesus was speaking to the apostles. The context shows that Jesus was speaking to the apostles. Then you posted a verse from Luke that has nothing to do with what Robert of I said.

uh, yeah, I think you missed the point. prolly won't make a difference to repeat it.

 

[Robert Hern]

We sin when we don’t know we’re sinning.
If we walk in the light and have fellowship, we are cleans of all sin.
If we know we have sinned, we confess our sins.
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Robert Hern]

Tens of millions of Christians disagree with you.



A Faith That Is Not Alone - http://www.canonglenn.com/category/good-works/


Being right with God is by faith alone, but not by a faith that stands alone. No place exists in the Christian life for claiming a “born from above” experience while displaying no evidence of a changed life. A born-again life is a life that allows Christ to live in and through us dispensing the fruit of the Spirit openly and widely (1 John 4:9).

Good works are described as the fruit of faith. Good works are not produced by the Christian, but good works are borne in the life of the Christian by the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23). We are fruit-bearers not fruit-producers: enabling grace works out the life of Christ in us.

Good works, or deeds, display to the world the changed heart that Christ has created in us (Matt. 7:15-20). Faith in the finished work of Christ expresses itself in deeds done for God and others. Good works are the fruit of faith, they follow after justification, they are evidence of a changed heart, and therefore, flow from a heart transformed by the Cross.

In the end, Martin Luther’s old formula still sums things up nicely:

"We are saved by faith alone [not our works], but not by a faith that remains alone.” Nothing we can do merit God’s grace and favor, we can only believe that he has given it to us in Jesus Christ and receive it by faith. But if we truly believe and trust in the one who sacrificially served us, it changes us into people who sacrificially serve God and our neighbors. If we say “I believe in Jesus” but it doesn’t affect the way we live, the answer is not that now we need to add hard work to our faith so much as that we haven’t truly understood or believed in Jesus at all. Timothy Keller,The Prodigal God: Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith http://www.amazon.com/Prodigal-God-..._0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309906641&sr=1-1

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

our works are because we love the Lord
but works will not save us.
we are saved by the Grace of God through Christ Jesus
our works is for a reward in heaven

 

[Robert Hern]

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.



Question if this was prepared for us in advance, were we predestined?

 

[John 8:32]

Please quit shouting.

 

[Butch5]

Tens of millions of Christians disagree with you.



A Faith That Is Not Alone - http://www.canonglenn.com/category/good-works/


Being right with God is by faith alone, but not by a faith that stands alone. No place exists in the Christian life for claiming a “born from above” experience while displaying no evidence of a changed life. A born-again life is a life that allows Christ to live in and through us dispensing the fruit of the Spirit openly and widely (1 John 4:9).

Good works are described as the fruit of faith. Good works are not produced by the Christian, but good works are borne in the life of the Christian by the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23). We are fruit-bearers not fruit-producers: enabling grace works out the life of Christ in us.

Good works, or deeds, display to the world the changed heart that Christ has created in us (Matt. 7:15-20). Faith in the finished work of Christ expresses itself in deeds done for God and others. Good works are the fruit of faith, they follow after justification, they are evidence of a changed heart, and therefore, flow from a heart transformed by the Cross.

In the end, Martin Luther’s old formula still sums things up nicely:

"We are saved by faith alone [not our works], but not by a faith that remains alone.” Nothing we can do merit God’s grace and favor, we can only believe that he has given it to us in Jesus Christ and receive it by faith. But if we truly believe and trust in the one who sacrificially served us, it changes us into people who sacrificially serve God and our neighbors. If we say “I believe in Jesus” but it doesn’t affect the way we live, the answer is not that now we need to add hard work to our faith so much as that we haven’t truly understood or believed in Jesus at all. Timothy Keller,The Prodigal God: Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith http://www.amazon.com/Prodigal-God-..._0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309906641&sr=1-1

Then those tens of millions of Christians also disagree with the Scriptures they claim to believe. James said faith without works is dead and asks rhetorically, can that faith save? The obvious answer is no. Thus faith without works he concludes is dead. A dead faith cannot produce anything let alone works. In order for this faith to be alive and able to save it must "First" have works. This is the original teaching of the church and can be found in the teachings of the first Christians. The fact that millions have been mislead by the teachings of Martin Luther do not in anyway change the faith that was taught by Jesus and the apostles.

If you go back and look at what was originally taught by Jesus and the disciples you'll see that there are other things that the tens of millions of Christians believe that are not Christian either, for instance the belief that heaven is the final destiny of the Christian. You won't find that teaching anywhere in the Scriptures yet millions believe it. It has it's roots in Greek philosophy and Gnosticism. Actually, the church today that those tens of millions of Christians are a part of doesn't look a whole lot like the church that Jesus and the apostles started.

 

[Butch5]

uh, yeah, I think you missed the point. prolly won't make a difference to repeat it.

I didn't miss the point. The point was irrelevant. Your point was that every word of God applicable to man. However, that doesn't mean that every word is applicable to "every" man. Those words were spoken to the apostles.

Using the line of reasoning you've suggested one must conclude that all Christians are at least 2000 years old since John said,

KJV 1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (1Jo 1:1 KJV)

Do you know Christians who have handled Christ or seen Christ?

Using that line of reasoning we must conclude that all Christians are carnal since Paul said,

KJV 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.​

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Co 3:1-3 KJV)


That line of reasoning leads to a contradiction in Paul's words since he's already said,

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (1Co 2:6 KJV)

The word translated perfect means mature.

This presents a problem to that line of reasoning unless one concludes that the apostles words are not the words of God.

However, we can use the words of Jesus Himself,

48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss? (Luk 22:48 KJV)

These words don't apply to all men, or all Christians

 

[Robert Hern]

We sin when we don’t know we’re sinning.

If we walk in the light and have fellowship, we are cleans of all sin.

If we know we have sinned, we confess our sins.
1. 1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[smaller]

I didn't miss the point. The point was irrelevant. Your point was that every word of God applicable to man. However, that doesn't mean that every word is applicable to "every" man. Those words were spoken to the apostles.

OK, just for humor. Every Word of God is for the life of MAN. How many is every?

When any of us claim that 'X' Word is only for 'X' man or men, that isn't true.

Using the line of reasoning you've suggested one must conclude that all Christians are at least 2000 years old since John said,

KJV 1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (1Jo 1:1 KJV)

Do you know Christians who have handled Christ or seen Christ?

Spiritual matters are by nature perceived spiritually. Carnal men have a hard time understanding.

Using that line of reasoning we must conclude that all Christians are carnal since Paul said,

KJV 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.​

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Co 3:1-3 KJV)

Of course we are ALL carnal. Why is it you think we have these often idiotic conversations? Paul himself said he was also carnal. The believer who does not see themselves as carnal is the most carnal of all men.

That line of reasoning leads to a contradiction in Paul's words since he's already said,

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (1Co 2:6 KJV)

The word translated perfect means mature.

Well, let's just toss out another term and set sail on what any particular jot or tittle might mean.

This presents a problem to that line of reasoning unless one concludes that the apostles words are not the words of God.

Uh, no the words of the Apostles are TEACHINGS of Gods Words. They are inspired in that direction. They are not however 'direct quotes of God in Christ' unless stated to be so, as Paul for example in his 2 Corinthians 12 statements which are said to be FROM GOD directly. Same with Words spoken to him on the Road to Damascus. Direct statements of God via Paul's quoting of same. But not 'every Word' those men spoke are GODS DIRECT WORDS.

However, we can use the words of Jesus Himself,

Oh, so we are back to square one then? That even though Jesus spoke to the Apostles as you cited, those WORDS are also applicable to us? Can we really agree on such simplicity? I have no issues with that view fwiw. Many do. Pity.

48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss? (Luk 22:48 KJV)

These words don't apply to all men, or all Christians

In the spiritual sense all deny, disobey, betray Christ, and most often those who know Him.

It's called sin. And we all have the infection.

enjoy!

s

 

[Mike S]

Then those tens of millions of Christians also disagree with the Scriptures they claim to believe. James said faith without works is dead and asks rhetorically, can that faith save? The obvious answer is no. Thus faith without works he concludes is dead. A dead faith cannot produce anything let alone works. In order for this faith to be alive and able to save it must "First" have works. This is the original teaching of the church and can be found in the teachings of the first Christians. The fact that millions have been mislead by the teachings of Martin Luther do not in anyway change the faith that was taught by Jesus and the apostles.

If you go back and look at what was originally taught by Jesus and the disciples you'll see that there are other things that the tens of millions of Christians believe that are not Christian either, for instance the belief that heaven is the final destiny of the Christian. You won't find that teaching anywhere in the Scriptures yet millions believe it. It has it's roots in Greek philosophy and Gnosticism. Actually, the church today that those tens of millions of Christians are a part of doesn't look a whole lot like the church that Jesus and the apostles started.

Well, I've said it before, you have the right to believe what you want. For a theology that has as much mystery to it, and depends as much as it does on reason and revelation as well as scripture, your ideas are overly dogmatic. I don't give them much credit.

 

[Butch5]

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

our works are because we love the Lord
but works will not save us.
we are saved by the Grace of God through Christ Jesus
our works is for a reward in heaven

No one is saying we are saved by works, it is God who saves. The question, can one be saved by faith alone or not? James clearly says no. This passages does "Not" support Luther's argument. You see, Luther was an Augustinian monk. He bought into the erroneous ideas of Augustine. As such Luther apparently didn't understand Paul's teachings correctly. Peter said many things that Paul wrote were hard to understand and many twist them to their own destruction. Luther was countering some errors in the Catholic church, but, as is often the case he went too far. Instead of getting back to the teachings of Scripture he went 180 degrees from the Catholic church on the issue of works.

We can see Paul's argument here in Ephesians 2:8 simply by reading this passage in context.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

(Eph 2:8-1 KJV)

When we look at the passage in context it becomes clear that Paul is making a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile. He tells the Gentiles that they were aliens from the commonwealth and promises of Israel, that they were without Christ and God, and so on. He goes on to explain how they have been brought into the commonwealth and promises, how they have been reconciled to God through Christ, etc. He says, that has been done by Christ breaking down the middle wall of partition (the wall in the temple that separated Jews and Gentiles) and abolishing the commandments contained in ordinances, that is the Mosaic Law. The works spoken of in verse 8 are the works of the Mosaic Law. Christ has abolished those ordinances contained in the Law, the ones the Jews kept to separate themselves from the nations.

A study of the history of the time reveals the issue of the Judaizers which was a major problem in Paul's ministry. The Judaizers were Jews who were teaching Gentile believers that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to keep the Mosaic Law and be circumcised. Knowing this was an issue in Paul's ministry sheds light on all of Paul's teaching on the issue of works. I would suggest that when you see Paul saying works don't save he's referring to the works of the Mosaic Law. He never says "Good deeds" aren't necessary for salvation. We can see this issue with the Judaizers dealt with in the Scriptures. All of Acts 15 deals with the issue of the Judaizers, it starts like this.

KJV Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Act 15:1 KJV)

We can also see it in Galatians.

KJV Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:1-5 KJV)

It can be seen from Paul's words that someone was trying to convince the Galatians that they also needed to keep the Mosaic Law.

I'd invite you to research this; you'll find that Paul's teaching on works that don't save is addressing this issue of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Butch5]

Well, I've said it before, you have the right to believe what you want. For a theology that has as much mystery to it, and depends as much as it does on reason and revelation as well as scripture, your ideas are overly dogmatic. I don't give them much credit.

Mark,

The appeal to many is fallacious. They're not my ideas they're the teaching of Scripture. James is absolutely crystal clear. The very fact that Luther and those who hold his doctrine struggle with James' words shows that Luther's doctrine cannot be Scriptural. His faith alone doctrine is based on either a misunderstanding or misapplication of Paul's teaching on works. As I posted to Robert, when Paul says works don't save, he is speaking of the Mosaic Law and usually addressing an issue dealing with the teachings of the Judaizers. Luther was an Augustinian monk; he accepted the teachings of Augustine who was a Manichean before becoming a Christian. Augustine changed several of the doctrines of the Christian faith from what was originally taught. The debate that you see today over the doctrine of election is based in the teachings of Augustine not Scripture. Before Augustine the church did not teaching that people were chosen before the foundation of the world. That idea was taught in Greek philospy and the Gnosticism. The Gnostics also taught "Once saved always saved," this was not taught anywhere in the Church until the Reformation. The Reformers got their ideas from Augustine.

So, just because millions may believe something, doesn't mean it's true. What about the millions of Christians who didn't believe in the faith alone doctrine long before Martin Luther ever came on the scene? When Martin Luther propagated the Faith Alone doctrine "Tens of millions" of Christians would have and did disagree with him. So, you see, we have the same equation on both sides, yet both sides can't be right. This dilemma should cause the thinking Christian to ask, were Christians wrong for the first 1400 years of Christian history? Were they in darkness for 1400 years and brought into the light when Luther came on the scene? If Luther is correct the church was in error for 1400 years because the necessity of works was taught from the beginning. What does that say about Jesus and the apostles? If Luther is correct and the Scriptures teach faith alone, then Jesus and the apostles must have taught faith alone. How then is it that their teaching didn't last, even for a generation? Wouldn't that mean that the apostles were unable to establish the faith of Jesus Christ if it was immediately lost upon their deaths? If one accepts that Luther's teaching of faith alone is what hte Scriptures teach then logically they must also accept the idea that the apostles were not able to establish the Church since the Church did not believe in the idea of faith alone for the first 1400 years of it's existence.

Here are a few quotes from the first Christians.

Clement of Rome; This Clement was Paul's traveling companion and is mentioned in Philippians 4:3 In Clement we have an eyewitness to the teachings of the apostle Paul.

Chap. XXX.—Let Us Do Those Things That Please God, and Flee from Those He Hates, That We May Be Blessed. Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. “For God,” saith [the Scripture], “resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.” (Prov. 3:34; James 4:6; 1 Pet. 5:5) Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words. For [the Scripture] saith, “He that speaketh much, shall also hear much in answer. And does he that is ready in speech deem himself righteous? Blessed is he that is born of woman, who liveth but a short time: be not given to much speaking.” Let our praise be in God, and not of ourselves; for God hateth those that commend themselves. Let testimony to our good deeds be borne by others, as it was in the case of our righteous forefathers. Boldness, and arrogance, and audacity belong to those that are accursed of God; but moderation, humility, and meekness to such as are blessed by Him.

Chap. XXI.—Let Us Obey God, and Not the Authors of Sedition. Take heed, beloved, lest His many kindnesses lead to the condemnation of us all. [For thus it must be] unless we walk worthy of Him, and with one mind do those things which are good and well-pleasing in His sight. For [the Scripture] saith in a certain place, “The Spirit of the Lord is a candle searching the secret parts of the belly.” (Prov. 20:27) Let us reflect how near He is, and that none of the thoughts or reasonings in which we engage are hid from Him. It is right, therefore, that we should not leave the post which His will has assigned us. Let us rather offend those men who are foolish, and inconsiderate, and lifted up, and who glory in the pride of their speech, than [offend] God. Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us; let us esteem those who have the rule over us; (Comp. Heb. 13:17; 1 Thess. 5:12, 13) let us honour the aged among us; let us train up the young men in the fear of God; let us direct our wives to that which is good. Let them exhibit the lovely habit of purity [in all their conduct]; let them show forth the sincere disposition of meekness; let them make manifest the command which they have of their tongue, by their manner of speaking; let them display their love, not by preferring (Comp. 1 Tim. 5:21) one to another, but by showing equal affection to all that piously fear God. Let your children be partakers of true Christian training; let them learn of how great avail humility is with God—how much the spirit of pure affection can prevail with Him—how excellent and great His fear is, and how it saves all those who walk in it with a pure mind. For He is a Searcher of the thoughts and desires [of the heart]: His breath is in us; and when He pleases, He will take it away.

Ignatius 105 AD; Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John.

Ignatius to the Ephesians Chapter 4

Wherefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung. And do ye, man by man, become a choir, that being harmonious in love, and taking up the song of God in unison, ye may with one voice sing to the Father through Jesus Christ, so that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that ye are indeed the members of His Son. It is profitable, therefore, that you should live in an unblameable unity, that thus ye may always enjoy communion with God.

Notice that Ignatius says God may perceive by your works that you are members of His Son. God knows those who have proclaimed faith in Christ yet Ignatius understood that it was also necessary that God perceive by one's good works that they are members of His Son.

Barnabas (Not the one in Scripture) 70-130 AD


The Way of Light. The way of light, then, is as follows. If any one desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works.


Chap. XXI.—Conclusion. It is well, therefore, that he who has learned the judgments of the Lord, as many as have been written, should walk in them. For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works.

Justin martyr 160AD

Chap. XII.—Christians Live as Under God’s Eye.
And more than all other men are we your helpers and allies in promoting peace, seeing that we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtuous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire; but would by all means restrain himself, and adorn himself with virtue, that he might obtain the good gifts of God, and escape the punishments.

These quotes (there are many more) show that the early Christians did not believe in faith alone. As we've seen two of these men had personal contact with the apostles themselves. Both Clement and Ignatius went on to become pastors and lead their own flock. Ignatius was appointed Bishop at Antioch by the apostle Peter himself. The fact that Peter appointed Ignatius as Bishop shows that Ignatius' doctrines were sanctioned by Peter. Clement was the third Bishop at Rome.

 

[Robert Hern]

No one is saying we are saved by works, it is God who saves. The question is can one be saved by faith alone or not. James clearly says no. This passages does "Not" support Luther's argument. You see, Luther was an Augustinian monk. He bought into the erroneous ideas of Augustine. As such Luther apparently didn't understand Paul's teachings correctly. Peter said many things that Paul wrote were hard to understand and they twist them to their own destruction. Luther was countering some errors in the Catholic church, but, as is often the case he went too far. Instead of getting back to the teachings of Scripture he went 180 degrees from the Catholic church on the issue of works.

We can see Paul's argument here in Ephesians 2:8 simply by reading this passage in context.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

(Eph 2:8-1 KJV)

When we look at the passage in context it becomes clear that Paul is making a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile. He tells the Gentile that they were aliens from the commonwealth and promises of Israel that they were without Christ and God, and so on. He goes on to explain how they have been brought into the commonwealth and promises, how they have been reconciled to God through Christ, etc. He says that has been done by Christ breaking down the middle wall of partition (the wall in the temple that separated Jews and Gentiles) and has abolished the commandments contained in ordinances, that is the Mosaic Law. The works spoken of in verse are the works of the Mosaic Law. Christ has abolished those ordinances contained in the Law, the ones the Jews kept to separate themselves from the nations.

A study the history of the time reveals the issue of the Judaizers which were a major problem in Paul's ministry. The Judaizers were Jews who were teaching Gentile believers that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to keep the Mosaic Law and be circumcised. Knowing this was an issue in Paul's ministry sheds light on all of Paul's reaching on the issue of works. I would suggest that when you see Paul saying works don't save he's referring to the works of the Mosaic Law. He never says "Good deeds" aren't necessary for salvation. We can see the issue with the Judaizers dealt with in the Scriptures. All of Acts 15 deals with the issue of the Judaizers, it starts like this.

KJV Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Act 15:1 KJV)

We can also see it in Galatians.

KJV Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:1-5 KJV)

It can be seen from Paul's words that someone was trying to convince the Galatians that they also needed to keep the Mosaic Law.

I'd invite you to research this; you'll find that Paul's teaching on works that don't save is address this issue of the Mosaic Law.

if a person is on His death bed and hears the Gosple of Jesus
if He truely believes, will he be saved

 

[Robert Hern]

We build on the foundation of Jesus
It is not the amount of work, it is all belief.
When people talk about the Lord or read the scripture because they want to know, it is all and effort.
A dying man in a hospital makes the effort to understand, this is the works, however small it may be.

1 Corinthians 3
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[Butch5]

OK, just for humor. Every Word of God is for the life of MAN. How many is every?

When any of us claim that 'X' Word is only for 'X' man or men, that isn't true.

That's not what I said. I said, not every word is "TO" every man, not "For" every man. There's a big difference.

Spiritual matters are by nature perceived spiritually. Carnal men have a hard time understanding.

There's nothing spiritual about it. John was saying that they, the apostles had seen, heard, and touched Jesus, have you, has every man, has every Christian?

Of course we are ALL carnal. Why is it you think we have these often idiotic conversations? Paul himself said he was also carnal. The believer who does not see themselves as carnal is the most carnal of all men.

In the context of Paul's words. He compares those who are mature with those who are carnal (babes in Christ). This passage alone refutest the idea that every word applys to every person because Paul said some are mature and some are carnal (babes in Christ). He said "some" not every.

Well, let's just toss out another term and set sail on what any particular jot or tittle might mean.

from this answer I can see you see the contradiction presented by that line of reasoning.

Uh, no the words of the Apostles are TEACHINGS of Gods Words. They are inspired in that direction. They are not however 'direct quotes of God in Christ' unless stated to be so, as Paul for example in his 2 Corinthians 12 statements which are said to be FROM GOD directly. Same with Words spoken to him on the Road to Damascus. Direct statements of God via Paul's quoting of same. But not 'every Word' those men spoke are GODS DIRECT WORDS.

They're inspired by God bu not the words of God? Can you explain?

Oh, so we are back to square one then? That even though Jesus spoke to the Apostles as you cited, those WORDS are also applicable to us? Can we really agree on such simplicity? I have no issues with that view fwiw. Many do. Pity.

But you said every word is applicable to ever man.

In the spiritual sense all deny, disobey, betray Christ, and most often those who know Him.

It's called sin. And we all have the infection.

In a spiritual sense? Was Jesus only killed in a spiritual sense, of course not. This shows that every word cannot be applied to every man. Every man can learn from every word of God, thus the verse you posted. However, not every word applies to every man.

 

[Butch5]

if a person is on His death bed and hears the Gosple of Jesus
if He truely believes, will he be saved

Do you have Scripture to prove this? If not it's just an opinion.

 

[Butch5]

We build on the foundation of Jesus
It is not the amount of work, it is all belief.
When people talk about the Lord or read the scripture because they want to know, it is all and effort.
A dying man in a hospital makes the effort to understand, this is the works, however small it may be.

1 Corinthians 3
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

In that passage Paul is speaking about those who are leaders and teachers.

 

[WIP]

It would seem we are drifting off topic into yet another "works" vs. "faith" thread. Let's get back on topic and use the appropriate threads for our discussions please.