Immaculate Conception

[hawkman]

I believe Christians view the Bible as the inspired Word of God, absolute truth, beneficial for teaching and discipliniworld nkind.

I think you word processor is in open rebellion . What should this say exactly ?

 

[electedbyHim]

So after reading all of this thread that I started, Mary is just another sinful human that needed a Savior and is not to be worshipped because none of it is taught in the Bible.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BB1956]

Did you also study about how Jesus had to be both human and divine in order to have atoning power for the forgiveness of the sins of the world?

You think he was just a normal human till the third day?

I understand mankind’s need for a ransom came about through the rebellion in Eden. Adam sold himself to do evil for the selfish pleasure of keeping continued company with his wife, now a sinful transgressor, so he shared the same condemned standing with her before God. So he sold himself and his descendants into slavery to sin and to death, the price that God’s justice required. (Romans 5:12-19; compare Romans 7:14-25) Having possessed human perfection, Adam lost this valuable possession for himself and all his offspring.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament notes that kopher “always denotes an equivalent,” or correspondency. Thus, the cover (kapporeth) of the ark of the covenant corresponded in shape to the ark itself. Likewise, in atoning for sin, or ransoming, divine justice demands ‘soul for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.’ (Deuteronomy 19:21) At times, though, justice can be satisfied if an equivalent is offered in lieu of strict punishment. To illustrate: Exodus 21:28-32 speaks of a bull that gores a person to death. If the owner knew of the bull’s disposition but did not take proper precautions, he could be made to cover, or pay, for the life of the slain one with his own! Yet, what if the owner was only partially responsible? He would need a kopher, something to cover his error. Appointed judges could impose upon him a ransom, or fine, as a redemption price.
The first Adam wasn't a God-man. He was created a perfect sinless human without a sinful nature who could make moral choices. Meaning he had the ability to choose to obey God or choose to disobey him. So after Adam sinned, for God to exact justice, he had to offer an equivalent of what was lost, so God sent his only begotten Son as an equivalent of what was lost, not a God-man, because that's not what was lost, what was lost was a perfect sinless human who had no sinful nature. So God's only begotten Son came as a perfect sinless human who had no sinful nature. I disagree Jesus was a God-man. That would mean that Jesus didn't come as the equivalent of the first Adam that was lost because the first Adam wasn't a God-man.
Also we have to understand that before the only begotten Son of God became flesh\human he was a spiritual being who had lived in heaven with God his father for a unknown billion upon billions of years. So the first Adam was from the earth the last Adam was from heaven. So I agree that Jesus came to the world of mankind as a perfect sinless human who had no sinful nature, but I wouldn't say he was like any other normal human, since no other human could say they were from heaven, that they had seen God.

 

[BB1956]

I think you word processor is in open rebellion . What should this say exactly ?

Sorry it should have said, I believe Christians view the Bible as the inspired Word of God, absolute truth, beneficial for teaching and disciplining the world of mankind.

 

[Walpole]

"If Mary no longer finds a place in many theologies and ecclesiologies, the reason is obvious: they have reduced the faith to an abstraction. And an abstraction does not need a Mother." - Pope Benedict XVI

 

[miamited]

Hi BB1956

Sorry it should have said, I believe Christians view the Bible as the inspired Word of God, absolute truth, beneficial for teaching and disciplining the world of mankind.

Uhh, I don't think so. The Scriptures are not for disciplining the world. The Scriptures are for rebuke and training in righteousness, those who are being saved. That's actually the problem, as I see it, with the evangelical movement.

You know, Jesus lived in a world where his Father's people were living under oppression by the Romans. I mean, life wasn't all bad, I'm sure, but it seems painfully obvious that the Jews wanted out from under them. Yet Jesus, who came to example for us what God is asking of us, never said a word in reproach of the governing body over Israel.

Paul was called in front of kings and governors and never complained about their political motives and agendas. There's not one word, within all of the Pauling epistles that example for us where christians went out and about condemning the lost world for its sin.

Where do we get this idea that God wants us to teach and discipline the whole world? Even Jesus didn't mention this until after he said that we were to go and preach to them and baptize them. He's referring to those who accepted the truth of the gospel here.

Finally, Paul seems to speak pretty clearly to us that we are not to condemn those who are apart from us. Apart from just sharing the gospel, the whole of the Scriptures is not to be used to beat the unbelievers over the head into submission. We share the gospel among our friends and our realm of contacts. For those who won't accept it, we have to accept that and continue to pray and seek other times to share God's love. For those who will, we encourage them to be baptized and then we spend time teaching them all that Jesus commanded us.

That's how it was in the early days of the church. The days of the first Apostles.

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: "In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. David said about him: “ ‘I saw the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest in hope, because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay. You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.’ “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Can you name the sin that Peter laid in to this group of people with?

God bless,
Ted

 

[Walpole]

"The more the faith of Christ spread and the Name of the Savior of the world was glorified on earth, and together with Him also She Who was vouchsafed to be the Mother of the God-man, the more did the hatred of the enemies of Christ increase towards Her. Mary was the Mother of Jesus. She manifested a hitherto unheard-of example of purity and righteousness, and furthermore, now departed from this life, She was a mighty support for Christians, even though invisible to bodily eyes. Therefore all who hated Jesus Christ and did not believe in Him, who did not understand his teaching, or to be more precise, did not wish to understand as the Church understood, who wished to replace the preaching of Christ with their own human reasoning all of these transferred their hatred for Christ, for the Gospel and the Church, to the Most Pure Virgin Mary. They wished to belittle the Mother, so as thereby to destroy faith also in Her Son, to create a false picture of Her among men in order to have the opportunity to rebuild the whole Christian teaching on a different foundation. In the womb of Mary, God and man were joined. She was the One Who served as it were as the ladder for the Son of God, Who descended from heaven. To strike a blow at Her veneration means to strike Christianity at the root, to destroy it in its very foundation." - St. John of Shanghai

 

[Mungo]

"If Mary no longer finds a place in many theologies and ecclesiologies, the reason is obvious: they have reduced the faith to an abstraction. And an abstraction does not need a Mother." - Pope Benedict XVI

Indeed.
And there is an old Catholic saying ""Abandoning the Mother is one step from abandoning the Son".
Or as an Orthodox put it “To ignore the Mother means to misinterpret the Son”.

 

[GodsGrace]

"The more the faith of Christ spread and the Name of the Savior of the world was glorified on earth, and together with Him also She Who was vouchsafed to be the Mother of the God-man, the more did the hatred of the enemies of Christ increase towards Her. Mary was the Mother of Jesus. She manifested a hitherto unheard-of example of purity and righteousness, and furthermore, now departed from this life, She was a mighty support for Christians, even though invisible to bodily eyes. Therefore all who hated Jesus Christ and did not believe in Him, who did not understand his teaching, or to be more precise, did not wish to understand as the Church understood, who wished to replace the preaching of Christ with their own human reasoning all of these transferred their hatred for Christ, for the Gospel and the Church, to the Most Pure Virgin Mary. They wished to belittle the Mother, so as thereby to destroy faith also in Her Son, to create a false picture of Her among men in order to have the opportunity to rebuild the whole Christian teaching on a different foundation. In the womb of Mary, God and man were joined. She was the One Who served as it were as the ladder for the Son of God, Who descended from heaven. To strike a blow at Her veneration means to strike Christianity at the root, to destroy it in its very foundation." - St. John of Shanghai

I think it's unfortunate that we on these forums don't give more importance to the ECFs.
The church of the time worked hard to keep out heresies...
and we're still inundated with them today.

 

[Walpole]

I think it's unfortunate that we on these forums don't give more importance to the ECFs.
The church of the time worked hard to keep out heresies...
and we're still inundated with them today.

The Church's Marian dogmas actually safeguard and protect orthodox Trinitarian theology and Christology.

My experience is any time Mary is attacked, it almost always leads to or stems from a Triniarian or Christological heresy.

 

[BB1956]

Miamited said,
Uhh, I don't think so. The Scriptures are not for disciplining the world.[/QUOTE\]

Yes the scriptures were given to all mankind. You can believe that Jesus only died for only a select few of mankind but you would be wrong. God sent his son to the world of mankind to save all of them who would respond by exercising faith in that loving sacrifice. So yes, God's word is for all mankind, not just for a select few. Just because all don't respond doesn't mean God's word wasn't for all mankind. God doesn't want anyone to be destroyed but those who will be saved have to love God enough to exercise faith in him. They can't exercise that faith without someone speaking about the truth about God and his Christ which is in the scriptures. Once they exercise that faith they have to get to know God so as to have a personal relationship with him and his only begotten Son Jesus, which you can only get to know God and his Christ from the scriptures.

 

[GodsGrace]

Miamited said,
Uhh, I don't think so. The Scriptures are not for disciplining the world.[/QUOTE\]

Yes the scriptures were given to all mankind. You can believe that Jesus only died for only a select few of mankind but you would be wrong. God sent his son to the world of mankind to save all of them who would respond by exercising faith in that loving sacrifice. So yes, God's word is for all mankind, not just for a select few. Just because all don't respond doesn't mean God's word wasn't for all mankind. God doesn't want anyone to be destroyed but those who will be saved have to love God enough to exercise faith in him. They can't exercise that faith without someone speaking about the truth about God and his Christ which is in the scriptures. Once they exercise that faith they have to get to know God so as to have a personal relationship with him and his only begotten Son Jesus, which you can only get to know God and his Christ from the scriptures.

If you don't tag in Miamited, he'll never see your posts.

This is how it's done: (I'm doing it for you this time)...


miamited

 

[hawkman]

I think it's unfortunate that we on these forums don't give more importance to the ECFs.
The church of the time worked hard to keep out heresies...
and we're still inundated with them today.

ECFs means Early Church Fathers, right ? If so do you know of a source of their writings on the web ?

 

[GodsGrace]

ECFs means Early Church Fathers, right ? If so do you know of a source of their writings on the web ?

Yes. That's what it means.
I'd only go up to about the 300's.
I think you have to start from the beginning...
who they are...what they did...
who taught them...

Then you could get more specific...
for instance: What the ECFs believed about eternal salvation.
What the ECFs believed about baptism,,,
and so on.

If I could find a short form of the first ones, I'll link it to you.
You'll find plenty of information.
You should check out a document called The Didache too.
It was believed to have been written between 90 and about 120AD.
It's been narrowed down to about 90AD.

 

[GodsGrace]

ECFs means Early Church Fathers, right ? If so do you know of a source of their writings on the web ?

Here's the link:

There's also a good book;
A DICTIONARY OF EARLY CHRISTIAN BELIEFS
David Bercot (he's protestant).

It would be good for all of us to know church history.

 

[Mungo]

ECFs means Early Church Fathers, right ? If so do you know of a source of their writings on the web ?

CHURCH FATHERS: Home

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

 

[Mungo]

You should check out a document called The Didache too.
It was believed to have been written between 90 and about 120AD.
It's been narrowed down to about 90AD.

The Catholic Encyclopedia on the New Advent site discusses the date and concludes:
The commoner view is that which puts the Didache before 100. Bartlet agrees with Ehrhard that 80-90 is the most probable decade. Sabatier, Minasi, Jacquier, and others have preferred a date even before 70.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Catholic Encyclopedia on the New Advent site discusses the date and concludes:
The commoner view is that which puts the Didache before 100. Bartlet agrees with Ehrhard that 80-90 is the most probable decade. Sabatier, Minasi, Jacquier, and others have preferred a date even before 70.

There's a set of books on the writings of the early fathers.
It goes too far beyond the 300's for me, but I'd still like to have it.
Not avx here (in English, my mother tongue).
I'm finding that the net does pretty well for my needs...
I also like that book I mentioned.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Catholic Encyclopedia on the New Advent site discusses the date and concludes:
The commoner view is that which puts the Didache before 100. Bartlet agrees with Ehrhard that 80-90 is the most probable decade. Sabatier, Minasi, Jacquier, and others have preferred a date even before 70.

I like that 70AD date because it's known as The Teachings of the Apostles.
Of course, who can know for sure?
It might have been written earlier on but those copies are not avx, or they were never mentioned when, perhaps, they might or could have been. I'm happy with 90.

 

[miamited]

Hi BB1956

Yes the scriptures were given to all mankind. You can believe that Jesus only died for only a select few of mankind but you would be wrong.

I honestly have no idea how that issue ties in with what you copied me on.

[quote/]Miamited said,
Uhh, I don't think so. The Scriptures are not for disciplining the world. [quote/]

Yes the Scriptures were given to all mankind, but not for discipline, but for hope. I don't know where you ever got the idea that I believe that Jesus didn't die for all mankind, but I've read the Scriptures!!!!! I know that Jesus also told us with his own mouth, that there were two roads out of this life. One was broad and wide and many will choose it. The other was narrow and so only a few would find its way to eternal life.

So my understanding is that Jesus died for all, but per Jesus' own words there will apparently be more that refuse his sacrifice than accept it. Those few who accept it will be the only ones for whom Jesus' death will have been benefit. It is God's will that all men come to the knowledge of His salvation and be saved. But the Scriptures are pretty clear, oh, in the account of the rapture. Where those left behind are then thrown into the winepress of God's wrath. Oh, when the armies of the world come up against Jesus and his army...all men won't.

So yes, God's word is for all mankind, not just for a select few.

I'm glad we agree on that.

God doesn't want anyone to be destroyed but those who will be saved have to love God enough to exercise faith in him. They can't exercise that faith without someone speaking about the truth about God and his Christ which is in the scriptures. Once they exercise that faith they have to get to know God so as to have a personal relationship with him and his only begotten Son Jesus, which you can only get to know God and his Christ from the scriptures.

Get no argument with me on that. In fact, it is my very argument. Thanks for explaining it to the others who, maybe you didn't think understood what I was saying.

God bless,
Ted