Immaculate Conception

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

Oddly enough, it seems to only be those fully subscribed to the Catholic organization's dogma and doctrine that feel that way. I've gotten a number of positive responses from non-Catholics.

Often times we get stuck believing what someone has told us, beyond what God has said. We're experiencing that today in our schools of higher education. Young people are being taught and shown and offered as proof, the idea of evolution. What do you think? Does that make evolution true?

God bless,
Ted

Are you here?
Do you read my posts?
Do you make up your mind about someone and then just carry on and ignore their posts?

I'M NOT CATHOLIC!

But Catholic doctrine COULD MAKE SENSE TO ME.
Yes. I'M SCREAMING!!!

You keep telling me I'm catholic and I keep telling you I'm not.
Please don't make me scream....the moderators will not like this.

I'm speaking from LOGICAL REASONING.
(That wasn't screaming but emphasizing.)


Is it possible to forget about catholics and what THEY believe and just have a conversation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

I'm sorry I brought that up in this thread. Now it's being used as a side argument to detract. It was just a curious question and I'm not going to go any further with it. It is not germane to this discussion. I really don't care what you guys call your leaders.

God bless,
Ted

"YOU GUYS CALL YOUR LEADERS."

WHO are you guys?

You asked the question...it was answered.
No one is using it to detract...

It takes time to reply to a post,
you should appreciate it instead of saying you don't care what YOU GUYS call YOUR LEADERS.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Mungo

That may be one of the surest statements that you have made. But the question is, as always, which side of any 'argumentative' discussion is correct? You see, in the reality of life, there will only be one way and one truth. It is in these discussions that we try to reach that truth. However, on the protestant boards, which are not subject to the whims and changes of the Catholic organization, we establish our doctrines solely and only on what can be confirmed in the Scriptures. The Scriptures, which are always and forever, in this realm, promised to endure. The Scriptures, which God and His Son and His Spirit have all confirmed is the truth from one end to the other of it.

For a lot of these doctrines being discussed here, we don't have anyone but some man, who a lot of people accept as being God's emissary on the earth, to say that anything he says is true. For me, and what I have, for quite a long time understood through the Scriptures, when we put some man on earth in charge of the things of God...it always gets messed up. This is why there is such a great debate about 'sola Scriptura', between the Catholic organization and Most other christian groups of believers. We aren't prepared, or able to find any proof in the Scriptures, that this plan of our salvation ever included that there would be some human being that would change every few years to tell us what to think about God.

God bless,
Ted

I'll let Mungo handle this...

but there are so many errors in your post that I'd fear getting started.
Of course, this means that you either:

1. Do not read replies because this has been explained a few times already.

2. You just don't care and you bring up questions and statements to argue.

 

[GodsGrace]

HI BB1956

Well, I have to say that the idea and proclamation that Jesus is God bothers me to some extent and so I certainly don't see Mary as being the mother of God.

Hope I didn't shake up your system to bad with that.

God bless,
Ted

Ah.
So you don't believe Jesus is God.
That explains a lot.
Wish I had known this before....

 

[miamited]

Hi wondering

I'M NOT CATHOLIC!

Yes, I heard you the first time, but you are doing your best here on this thread to be 'fully subscribed to the Catholic organization's dogma and doctrine'. Whether you are of not a practicing member of the Catholic faith, you seem to be pretty sold on this Catholic doctrine.

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

The reason that this topic of the immaculate conception came up to begin with among Catholics is that around somewhere of the 4th century the trinity was ratified by the king of that time so people(bishops, theologians) later on started saying that Mary was the mother of God. So after many centuries of debates and arguments the immaculate conception came into existence since many felt it or believed that since Mary was the mother of God she had to be without sin. There is no evidence however of any of this in the scriptures. Nowhere in the scriptures is it said Mary should be prayed to or that she was the mother of God or that she was without sin.

Hi BB
Welcome to the forum.

To whom was Mary the mother?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

Yes, I heard you the first time, but you are doing your best here on this thread to be 'fully subscribed to the Catholic organization's dogma and doctrine'. Whether you are of not a practicing member of the Catholic faith, you seem to be pretty sold on this Catholic doctrine.

God bless,
Ted

I know Catholic doctrine and I agree with some of it. Kill me.

My point is to try to discuss from neutrality.
Let's not let Catholicism get in the way.

But you don't think Jesus is God.
If that's right, you're not even Christian and yet you want to debate Mary!

 

[hawkman]

So God created a fully functional zygot.

Scriptural support for this ?

Pretty much the same thing that He did with Adam except on a much, much smaller scale and earlier on in the birth beginning, that Adam never had.

Scriptural support for this ?

The Holy Spirit implanted in the womb of Jesus an already fertilized egg and attached it to her uterine wall and from their Mary's body took over and fed the fetus until birth. I'm going with, "if we could have some of Jesus' DNA and some of Joseph's and Mary's DNA, there wouldn't be any match. Whatever DNA we could obtain from Jesus likely came from the hand of God. Just as perfect as His creation.

Scriptural support for this ?

Do you remember what Jesus would call himself ? I do, "the Son of man " . Do you believe Jesus when he says that ?

Luke5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

 

[miamited]

Hi wondering

So you don't believe Jesus is God.
That explains a lot.
Wish I had known this before....

Well, you can't be expected to know everything about everybody, but I've been open about my understanding of the Trinity for a long time and I've written about it in threads here and also in my previous incarnation on Christianforums.com

You see, I've read the Scriptures. Here's what the Scriptures say about Jesus.

This is my Son in whom I am well pleased. ------ Seems that Jesus is God's Son.

“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”

This is what God the LORD says— the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it: “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness. “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.
--- Jesus is God's servant. God says that He will put His Spirit on him. Now I need you to step back just a moment and try to understand that if God has to PUT His Spirit on him, then he wasn't God just a few moments before that event.
In nearly every one of Paul's writings, he opens with a greeting that speaks separately to God and Jesus. Then we find, in the Revelation of Jesus, this...The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,...
Why does God have to give Jesus something that he already has?
Now, I've been in discussion about this issue before, and I know that for the wider Christian community it's considered anathema to not immediately proclaim that Jesus is God. However, I don't find that to be a particularly solidly proven argument.
Most people fall back on Jesus' words where he says to the people who ask about 'who' he is,...I AM.
But guess what, that argument can be questioned as to whether it was Jesus speaking about himself or God telling the people who were listening that they were speaking to God...through His Servant. Now, why would I say such a thing? Well, because Jesus was clear to tell those he was speaking to that his words were not his own. They were the words that his Father was directing him to speak.

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

So, an argument can be made, and I believe based on the other evidences of such in the Scriptures, as I have already noted, that Jesus said, "I AM" to those asking about 'who' he was and God said in these words, "Tell them that they're dealing with me!!!"

So yes, I have some hesitation regarding this allegiance that Jesus is God. As far as I can find in the Scriptures: Jesus is God's servant. Sent into the world to do his Father's bidding.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi wondering

I know Catholic doctrine and I agree with some of it. Kill me.

Look, the smugness isn't building each other up till we reach all righteousness.

God bless,
Ted

 

[BB1956]

BB1956
I think you are misleadingly selective in your quotes from the Catholic Encyclopedia.


There are not categorical or stringent proofs from scripture for many beliefs , otherwise we would not have some many arguments and contradictory beliefs.

Having said the above the Catholic Encyclopedia then discusses Gen 3:15, and Luke 1:28.




But the Catholic Encyclopedia discusses the writings of the Early Fathers extensively.

Patristic writings on Mary's purity abound.

• The Fathers call Mary the tabernacle exempt from defilement and corruption (Hippolytus, "Ontt. in illud, Dominus pascit me");
• Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");
• Ambrose says she is incorrupt, a virgin immune through grace from every stain of sin ("Sermo xxii in Ps. cxviii);
• Maximus of Turin calls her a dwelling fit for Christ, not because of her habit of body, but because of original grace ("Nom. viii de Natali Domini");
• Theodotus of Ancyra terms her a virgin innocent, without spot, void of culpability, holy in body and in soul, a lily springing among thorns, untaught the ills of Eve, nor was there any communion in her of light with darkness, and, when not yet born, she was consecrated to God ("Orat. in S. Dei Genitr.").
• In refuting Pelagius St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin "except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned" (On Nature and Grace 36).
• Mary was pledged to Christ (Peter Chrysologus, "Sermo cxl de Annunt. B.M.V.");
• it is evident and notorious that she was pure from eternity, exempt from every defect (Typicon S. Sabae);
• she was formed without any stain (St. Proclus, "Laudatio in S. Dei Gen. ort.", I, 3);
• she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures (Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140);
• when the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to anticipate the germ of grace, but remained devoid of fruit (John Damascene, "Hom. i in B. V. Nativ.", ii).
• The Syrian Fathers never tire of extolling the sinlessness of Mary. St. Ephraem considers no terms of eulogy too high to describe the excellence of Mary's grace and sanctity: "Most holy Lady, Mother of God, alone most pure in soul and body, alone exceeding all perfection of purity ...., alone made in thy entirety the home of all the graces of the Most Holy Spirit, and hence exceeding beyond all compare even the angelic virtues in purity and sanctity of soul and body . . . . my Lady most holy, all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate spotless robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment . . . flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone most immaculate" ("Precationes ad Deiparam" in Opp. Graec. Lat., III, 524-37).
• To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate ("Carmina Nisibena").
• Jacob of Sarug says that "the very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary". It seems, however, that Jacob of Sarug, if he had any clear idea of the doctrine of sin, held that Mary was perfectly pure from original sin ("the sentence against Adam and Eve") at the Annunciation.

And more but it too long for one post.

Imperfect human beings can say Mary was without sin, pray to Mary or call her the mother of God, Whatever imperfect human beings will try to get me to blindly agree to what they say, because if they have no scripture to back up what they're saying, I would just be blindly agreeing with them. So I'm not going to agree with them if I can see for myself that what they're saying isn't in agreement with scripture. We're just going to have to disagree. I understand that when it comes to other human beings personal lives they have the right to interpret the scriptures the way they wish, it's their life, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with how they interpret the scriptures.

 

[miamited]

Hi hawkman

Scriptural support for this ?

Oh, I think I was clear that I honestly don't have any 'Scriptural support' for the 'how' exactly Mary was found to be pregnant. However, based on 'who' Jesus had to be, then the embryonic beginnings of Jesus HAD to be somehow different than every other child birth in history. So, these are ruminations of how that could have come about. It has about as much Scriptural support as any of the other considerations being bantered about here.

As I stated previously, all we can say with any definite assurance because God's word clearly explains it to us is: Jesus was born of a virgin. Jesus was without sin in any part of his life. He never sinned or was sinful in nature.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Mungo]

Imperfect human beings can say Mary was without sin, pray to Mary or call her the mother of God, Whatever imperfect human beings will try to get me to blindly agree to what they say, because if they have no scripture to back up what they're saying, I would just be blindly agreeing with them. So I'm not going to agree with them if I can see for myself that what they're saying isn't in agreement with scripture. We're just going to have to disagree. I understand that when it comes to other human beings personal lives they have the right to interpret the scriptures the way they wish, it's their life, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with how they interpret the scriptures.

I will say this - no Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted).

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

Well, you can't be expected to know everything about everybody, but I've been open about my understanding of the Trinity for a long time and I've written about it in threads here and also in my previous incarnation on Christianforums.com

You see, I've read the Scriptures. Here's what the Scriptures say about Jesus.

This is my Son in whom I am well pleased. ------ Seems that Jesus is God's Son.

“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”

This is what God the LORD says— the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it: “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness. “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.
--- Jesus is God's servant. God says that He will put His Spirit on him. Now I need you to step back just a moment and try to understand that if God has to PUT His Spirit on him, then he wasn't God just a few moments before that event.
In nearly every one of Paul's writings, he opens with a greeting that speaks separately to God and Jesus. Then we find, in the Revelation of Jesus, this...The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,...
Why does God have to give Jesus something that he already has?
Now, I've been in discussion about this issue before, and I know that for the wider Christian community it's considered anathema to not immediately proclaim that Jesus is God. However, I don't find that to be a particularly solidly proven argument.
Most people fall back on Jesus' words where he says to the people who ask about 'who' he is,...I AM.
But guess what, that argument can be questioned as to whether it was Jesus speaking about himself or God telling the people who were listening that they were speaking to God...through His Servant. Now, why would I say such a thing? Well, because Jesus was clear to tell those he was speaking to that his words were not his own. They were the words that his Father was directing him to speak.

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

So, an argument can be made, and I believe based on the other evidences of such in the Scriptures, as I have already noted, that Jesus said, "I AM" to those asking about 'who' he was and God said in these words, "Tell them that they're dealing with me!!!"

So yes, I have some hesitation regarding this allegiance that Jesus is God. As far as I can find in the Scriptures: Jesus is God's servant. Sent into the world to do his Father's bidding.

God bless,
Ted

Yes we all know all this.
God loves all who follow Him.
Whatever you call Him.
What I don't understand is why you call yourself christian.

Being a Christian requires believing that Jesus is God.

A person can't just make up his own description of what a christian is.
PS I didn't check what's written under your avatar and may have to apologize....

You sound more like a JW.

 

[miamited]

Hi wondering

Being a Christian requires believing that Jesus is God.

Uhhh, no it doesn't!!!!!!!! Being a christian means that one is trying to follow Christ and his teachings and commands.

It's why the name was even started in Antioch.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Mungo

I will say this - no Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted).

And I would expect nothing less from a staunch Catholic believer.

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

Well, you can't be expected to know everything about everybody, but I've been open about my understanding of the Trinity for a long time and I've written about it in threads here and also in my previous incarnation on Christianforums.com

You see, I've read the Scriptures. Here's what the Scriptures say about Jesus.

This is my Son in whom I am well pleased. ------ Seems that Jesus is God's Son.

“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”

This is what God the LORD says— the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it: “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness. “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.
--- Jesus is God's servant. God says that He will put His Spirit on him. Now I need you to step back just a moment and try to understand that if God has to PUT His Spirit on him, then he wasn't God just a few moments before that event.
In nearly every one of Paul's writings, he opens with a greeting that speaks separately to God and Jesus. Then we find, in the Revelation of Jesus, this...The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,...
Why does God have to give Jesus something that he already has?
Now, I've been in discussion about this issue before, and I know that for the wider Christian community it's considered anathema to not immediately proclaim that Jesus is God. However, I don't find that to be a particularly solidly proven argument.
Most people fall back on Jesus' words where he says to the people who ask about 'who' he is,...I AM.
But guess what, that argument can be questioned as to whether it was Jesus speaking about himself or God telling the people who were listening that they were speaking to God...through His Servant. Now, why would I say such a thing? Well, because Jesus was clear to tell those he was speaking to that his words were not his own. They were the words that his Father was directing him to speak.

Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

So, an argument can be made, and I believe based on the other evidences of such in the Scriptures, as I have already noted, that Jesus said, "I AM" to those asking about 'who' he was and God said in these words, "Tell them that they're dealing with me!!!"

So yes, I have some hesitation regarding this allegiance that Jesus is God. As far as I can find in the Scriptures: Jesus is God's servant. Sent into the world to do his Father's bidding.

God bless,
Ted

MY PREVIOUS INCARNATION ON CF.COM

 

[BB1956]

Hi BB
Welcome to the forum.

To whom was Mary the mother?

The scriptures are clear that says at Luke 1: 35, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

So from the scriptures it says Mary was the Mother of not God but God's son.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

Uhhh, no it doesn't!!!!!!!! Being a christian means that one is trying to follow Christ and his teachings and commands.

It's why the name was even started in Antioch.

God bless,
Ted

Why was the name started in Antioch?

 

[miamited]

Hi again wondering

You sound more like a JW.

As with most denominations, there are crossover understandings. For example: Nearly every solid christian denomination believes that Jesus is the Son of God. That Jesus is the only Savior of the world. That Jesus gave his life for our sin.

Just because I may have a few understandings that are also shared by JW's doesn't make me one. But if that makes you satisfied to rebuke me...go for it!

If you really want to get things going...I never voted for Trump either! LOL

God bless,
Ted