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Immaculate Conception

H BB1956
The scriptures are clear that says at Luke 1: 35, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

So from the scriptures it says Mary was the Mother of not God but God's son.
Exactly!! However, other than being the vessel through whom he was born, I don't believe that biologically, Mary was the mother of Jesus. So yes, she is referred to as the mother of Jesus, by human beings of that day because they didn't have any concept of how Jesus was different than anybody else. At that time, most people thought he was just a new and great prophet of God. So, they would have expected him to have a mother just as much as an earthly father. They do at one point ask if he isn't the son of Joseph. Does that mean that God wasn't his father, but Joseph was?

I don't think so. We never hear God say that Mary is Jesus' mother. All we hear are people around him that say it and they just didn't know any better because everybody had a mother and father. So other than people saying it in their human ignorance, I don't believe that it was the reality of truth that Mary was even the mother of Jesus. Other than, as I've said, in the nature of a surrogacy.

God bless,
Ted
 
The scriptures are clear that says at Luke 1: 35, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

So from the scriptures it says Mary was the Mother of not God but God's son.
So was Jesus God
Or God's Son as the JWs proclaim?
 
H BB1956

Exactly!! However, other than being the vessel through whom he was born, I don't believe that biologically, Mary was the mother of Jesus. So yes, she is referred to as the mother of Jesus, by human beings of that day because they didn't have any concept of how Jesus was different than anybody else. At that time, most people thought he was just a new and great prophet of God. So, they would have expected him to have a mother just as much as an earthly father. They do at one point ask if he isn't the son of Joseph. Does that mean that God wasn't his father, but Joseph was?

I don't think so. We never hear God say that Mary is Jesus' mother. All we hear are people around him that say it and they just didn't know any better because everybody had a mother and father. So other than people saying it in their human ignorance, I don't believe that it was the reality of truth that Mary was even the mother of Jesus. Other than, as I've said, in the nature of a surrogacy.

God bless,
Ted
Are you saying Mary was not the mother of Jesus?
 
Hi hawkman

Oh, I think I was clear that I honestly don't have any 'Scriptural support' for the 'how' exactly Mary was found to be pregnant. However, based on 'who' Jesus had to be, then the embryonic beginnings of Jesus HAD to be somehow different than every other child birth in history. So, these are ruminations of how that could have come about. It has about as much Scriptural support as any of the other considerations being bantered about here.

As I stated previously, all we can say with any definite assurance because God's word clearly explains it to us is: Jesus was born of a virgin. Jesus was without sin in any part of his life. He never sinned or was sinful in nature.

God bless,
Ted
I agree that Jesus Christ came in the likeness of the first Adam, just as the first Adam had God as his Father so did Jesus Christ. Jesus was born of a virgin he was without sin or a sinful nature and he remained without sin when he was put to death.
 
Hi again wondering


As with most denominations, there are crossover understandings. For example: Nearly every solid christian denomination believes that Jesus is the Son of God. That Jesus is the only Savior of the world. That Jesus gave his life for our sin.

Just because I may have a few understandings that are also shared by JW's doesn't make me one. But if that makes you satisfied to rebuke me...go for it!

If you really want to get things going...I never voted for Trump either! LOL

God bless,
Ted
LOL

I'm not at my computer, so I can't properly scold you.

If you don't believe Jesus is the 2nd person of the trinity, you can't be Christian.

Oops.
You don't believe in the Trinity...
 
H BB1956

Exactly!! However, other than being the vessel through whom he was born, I don't believe that biologically, Mary was the mother of Jesus. So yes, she is referred to as the mother of Jesus, by human beings of that day because they didn't have any concept of how Jesus was different than anybody else. At that time, most people thought he was just a new and great prophet of God. So, they would have expected him to have a mother just as much as an earthly father. They do at one point ask if he isn't the son of Joseph. Does that mean that God wasn't his father, but Joseph was?

I don't think so. We never hear God say that Mary is Jesus' mother. All we hear are people around him that say it and they just didn't know any better because everybody had a mother and father. So other than people saying it in their human ignorance, I don't believe that it was the reality of truth that Mary was even the mother of Jesus. Other than, as I've said, in the nature of a surrogacy.

God bless,
Ted
What IS a mother?
 
So was Jesus God
Or God's Son as the JWs proclaim?
The scriptures say that when Jesus asked his apostles who they believed he was the apostle Letter said, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. So I will agree with Peter who said that Jesus was the Son of the living God not God himself.
 
The scriptures say that when Jesus asked his apostles who they believed he was the apostle Letter said, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. So I will agree with Peter who said that Jesus was the Son of the living God not God himself.
You also don't believe in the Trinity?
 
The scriptures say that when Jesus asked his apostles who they believed he was the apostle Letter said, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. So I will agree with Peter who said that Jesus was the Son of the living God not God himself.
Last question...
Do you worship Jesus or just follow Him?
If you worship Him, you'd be worshipping a man...
 
No wonder ,the Jws say that they are followers of Christ


You can't deny Jesus eternal existence and say the jw is a Christian .

I know from personal experience as I was raised in the Kingdom hall.
 
The scriptures say that when Jesus asked his apostles who they believed he was the apostle Letter said, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. So I will agree with Peter who said that Jesus was the Son of the living God not God himself.

From the Statement of Faith for this site:
We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.(Matt Perman 2006).
 
You also don't believe in the Trinity?
I've found no trinity Doctrine in the scriptures. The New Encyclopedia Britannica comments: Scholars acknowledge that the Athanasian Creed, often quoted as a standard definition and support of the Trinity, was not written by Athanasius but by an unknown author much later.
“The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius who died around 373 but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.”⁠
In the New Catholic Encyclopedia it says that a catholic authority says the Trinity "is not," directly and immediately, the word of God.

The Catholic Enclopedia also comments: “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word "trias of which the Latin "trinitas" is a translation is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180.

The New Catholic Enclopedia also says: “The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament."

Similarly, in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: The Old Testament, tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a trinity within the Godhead. Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.

Jesuit Fortman states: The New Testament writers give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.

The late Anglican bishop John Robinson gave a thought-provoking answer to this question in his best-selling book Honest to God. He wrote:
“In practice popular preaching and teaching presents a supranaturalistic view of Christ which cannot be substantiated from the New Testament. It says simply that Jesus was God, in such a way that the terms ‘Christ’ and ‘God’ are interchangeable. But nowhere in Biblical usage is this so. The New Testament says that Jesus was the Word of God, it says that God was in Christ, it says that Jesus is the Son of God; but it does not say that Jesus was God, simply like that.”
In his book The Church of the First Three Centuries, Dr. Alvan Lamson states that the doctrine of the Trinity “had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; that it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers.” Who were these “Platonizing Fathers”? They were apostate clerics who were infatuated with the teachings of pagan Greek philosopher Plato.
Many scholars, including Trinitarians, admit that the Bible does not contain an actual doctrine of a Trinity. For example, The Encyclopedia of Religion states:

“Exegetes and theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity. Although the Hebrew Bible depicts God as the father of Israel and employs personifications of God such as Word (davar), Spirit (ruah), Wisdom (hokhmah), and Presence (shekhinah), it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions with later trinitarian doctrine.

“Further, exegetes and theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity. God the Father is source of all that is (Pantokrator) and also the father of Jesus Christ; ‘Father’ is not a title for the first person of the Trinity but a synonym for God.

“In the New Testament there is no reflective consciousness of the metaphysical nature of God (‘immanent trinity’), nor does the New Testament contain the technical language of later doctrine (hupostasis, ousia, substantia, subsistentia, prosōpon, persona). It is incontestable that the doctrine cannot be established on scriptural evidence alone.”⁠

Regarding the historical facts on this matter, The New Encyclopædia Britannica states:

“Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.

“The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.

“It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.”⁠

The New Catholic Encyclopedia makes a similar statement regarding the origin of the Trinity:

“There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma ‘one God in three Persons’ became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought.
 
Last question...
Do you worship Jesus or just follow Him?
If you worship Him, you'd be worshipping a man...
I never at any time said that I worshiped Jesus Christ. YHWH God is the the creator and source of all life. Since Jesus himself said at John 20:17 he has a Father and God that was his apostles and disciples Father and God, and Jesus said at John 17:3 when praying to God that to get eternal life you must know the person Jesus was praying to as being the only true God and to know the one that the only true God sent. So I worship the person that Jesus was praying to at John 17:3 and the one Jesus said was his Father and God at John 20:17. From what I've learned from scripture that person is YHWH God. YHWH God is the Father and God of Jesus so he's also the Father and God of Jesus apostles and disciples. YHWH God is the person I prayed to through Jesus. I prayed to YHWH God using his only begotten Son name.
 
I've found no trinity Doctrine in the scriptures. The New Encyclopedia Britannica comments: Scholars acknowledge that the Athanasian Creed, often quoted as a standard definition and support of the Trinity, was not written by Athanasius but by an unknown author much later.
“The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius who died around 373 but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.”⁠
In the New Catholic Encyclopedia it says that a catholic authority says the Trinity "is not," directly and immediately, the word of God.

The Catholic Enclopedia also comments: “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word "trias of which the Latin "trinitas" is a translation is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180.

The New Catholic Enclopedia also says: “The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament."

Similarly, in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: The Old Testament, tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a trinity within the Godhead. Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.

Jesuit Fortman states: The New Testament writers give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.

The late Anglican bishop John Robinson gave a thought-provoking answer to this question in his best-selling book Honest to God. He wrote:
“In practice popular preaching and teaching presents a supranaturalistic view of Christ which cannot be substantiated from the New Testament. It says simply that Jesus was God, in such a way that the terms ‘Christ’ and ‘God’ are interchangeable. But nowhere in Biblical usage is this so. The New Testament says that Jesus was the Word of God, it says that God was in Christ, it says that Jesus is the Son of God; but it does not say that Jesus was God, simply like that.”
In his book The Church of the First Three Centuries, Dr. Alvan Lamson states that the doctrine of the Trinity “had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; that it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers.” Who were these “Platonizing Fathers”? They were apostate clerics who were infatuated with the teachings of pagan Greek philosopher Plato.
Many scholars, including Trinitarians, admit that the Bible does not contain an actual doctrine of a Trinity. For example, The Encyclopedia of Religion states:

“Exegetes and theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity. Although the Hebrew Bible depicts God as the father of Israel and employs personifications of God such as Word (davar), Spirit (ruah), Wisdom (hokhmah), and Presence (shekhinah), it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions with later trinitarian doctrine.

“Further, exegetes and theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity. God the Father is source of all that is (Pantokrator) and also the father of Jesus Christ; ‘Father’ is not a title for the first person of the Trinity but a synonym for God.

“In the New Testament there is no reflective consciousness of the metaphysical nature of God (‘immanent trinity’), nor does the New Testament contain the technical language of later doctrine (hupostasis, ousia, substantia, subsistentia, prosōpon, persona). It is incontestable that the doctrine cannot be established on scriptural evidence alone.”⁠

Regarding the historical facts on this matter, The New Encyclopædia Britannica states:

“Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.

“The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.

“It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.”⁠

The New Catholic Encyclopedia makes a similar statement regarding the origin of the Trinity:

“There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma ‘one God in three Persons’ became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought.
BB
Why have you written so much?
Are you trying to convince me,
Or yourself.

The Catholic Church teaches the Trinity.
There's no such entity as the Roman Catbolic Church, BTW.

So you believe I'm worshipping a man?

I'll have more to say when I'm at my computer in the morning.

My question still stands...
You can believe what you will,
But what makes you a christian?
 
I never at any time said that I worshiped Jesus Christ. YHWH God is the the creator and source of all life. Since Jesus himself said at John 20:17 he has a Father and God that was his apostles and disciples Father and God, and Jesus said at John 17:3 when praying to God that to get eternal life you must know the person Jesus was praying to as being the only true God and to know the one that the only true God sent. So I worship the person that Jesus was praying to at John 17:3 and the one Jesus said was his Father and God at John 20:17. From what I've learned from scripture that person is YHWH God. YHWH God is the Father and God of Jesus so he's also the Father and God of Jesus apostles and disciples. YHWH God is the person I prayed to through Jesus. I prayed to YHWH God using his only begotten Son name.
I do want you to know that I've considered all this carefully, as have others, and I come away believing Jesus is the word spoken of by John in John 1,1
 
From the Statement of Faith for this site:
We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.(Matt Perman 2006).
I understand what people believe when they talk about the Trinity. But I also know that among those theologians and scholars that believe in the Trinity doctrine, they all don't agree.
I have always believed it was the only begotten Son of God who came to the World of mankind as a human and sacrificed his human body, his human life, for mankind then the third day after his death was risen from the dead as a life giving spirit. If I exercise faith in what the scriptures say regarding this loving sacrificial act I will get everlasting life.
 
I understand what people believe when they talk about the Trinity. But I also know that among those theologians and scholars that believe in the Trinity doctrine, they all don't agree.
I have always believed it was the only begotten Son of God who came to the World of mankind as a human and sacrificed his human body, his human life, for mankind then the third day after his death was risen from the dead as a life giving spirit. If I exercise faith in what the scriptures say regarding this loving sacrificial act I will get everlasting life.
Did you also study about how Jesus had to be both human and divine in order to have atoning power for the forgiveness of the sins of the world?

You think he was just a normal human till the third day?
 
BB
Why have you written so much?
Are you trying to convince me,
Or yourself.

The Catholic Church teaches the Trinity.
There's no such entity as the Roman Catbolic Church, BTW.

So you believe I'm worshipping a man?

I'll have more to say when I'm at my computer in the morning.

My question still stands...
You can believe what you will,
But what makes you a christian?
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I believe people will choose to believe what they choose to believe. Doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to agree with what they choose to believe. I simply posted what I posted to show that I've learned myself that even among those that say they believe in the Trinity there is disagreement about it. Many theologians and scholars will tell you that the Trinity doctrine isn't in the scriptures.
As far as what makes a person a christian. Jesus extended the invitation to be his follower, saying: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me.” (Matthew 16:24) Those who are true Christians have full faith that Jesus Christ is God’s specially Anointed One and only-begotten Son, the Promised Seed who sacrificed his human life as a ransom, was resurrected and exalted to the right hand of YHWH God, and received authority to subdue his enemies and vindicate YHWH’s sovereignty. (Matthew 20:28; Luke 24:46; John 3:16; Galatians 3:16; Philippians2:9-11; Hebrew 10:12, 13) I believe Christians view the Bible as the inspired Word of God, absolute truth, beneficial for teaching and discipliniworld nkind.(John 17:17; 2 Timothy3:16; 2 Peter 1:21). I also believe that to be a true Christian the congregation of people who are truly Christians will have love among themselves. So true Christian congregations all over the world will have love love among themselves all over the world and will put God's Kingdom first, not a human government that God will one day destroy. True Christians obey the laws of human governments as long as their laws don't contradict God's commandments which will always come first for a true Christian and a true Christian congregation.
 
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