Impossible Questions For Trinitarians

[mutzrein]

holy mackrel (woops pig) isn't that interesting. Another who seems to think they are the right(eous) one with scripture on their side and yet cannot even control the words they create. Surely if they were led by the Spirit to a correct interpretation they would also show the fruit of the Spirit by their words and actions.

 

[Georges]

As I had a direct shot taken at me...all I can say retardically is it's mildly amusing. I don't know Mr. Rick....(I think he has problems), but I hold no malice for the shots taken...

anyway Mr. Rick....here is a copy of the Targum references that to only pertain to the Torah mentions of the Memra...this is just a list from the Targum Jonathan (an aramaic paraphrasing of the OT used to help the common people interpret the Hebrew scripture.) I'm sure you know that but I put it out there for those who may not...

anyway....from Edersheim's "Life and Times of the Messiah":

Classified List of Passages in which the term 'Memra' occurs in the Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on the Pentateuch.

Class I. Undoubted: Gen. ii. 8, 10, 24; iv. 26; v. 2; vii. 16; ix. 12, 13, 15, 16, 17; xi. 8; xii. 17; xv. 1; xvii. 2, 7, 10, 11; xviii. 5; xix. 24 (bis); xx. 6, 18: xxi. 22; 22, 23, 33; xxii. 1; xxiv, 3; xxvi. 3, 24, 28; xxvii. 28, 31; xxviii. 10, 15, 20; xxix. 12; xxxi. 3, 50; xxxv. 3, 9; xxxix. 2, 3, 21, 23; xli.1; xlvi. 4; xlviii. 9, 21; xlix. 25; 1. 20; Exod. i. 21; ii. 5; iii. 12; vii. 25; x. 10; xii. 23, 29; xiii. 8, 15, 17; xiv. 25, 31; xv. 25; xvii. 13, 15, 16 (bis); xviii. 19; xx. 7; xxvi. 28; xxix. 42, 43; xxx. 6, 36; xxxi. 13, 17; xxxii. 35; xxxiii. 9, 19; xxxiv. 5; xxxvi. 33; Lev. i. 1 (bis); vi. 2; viii. 35; ix. 23; xx. 23; xxiv. 12 (bis); xxvi. 11, 12, 30, 44, 46; Numb. iii. 16, 39, 51; iv. 37, 41, 45, 49; ix. 18 (bis), 19, 20, (bis), 23 (ter); x. 13, 35, 36; xiv. 9, 41, 43; xvi. 11, 26; xvii. 4; xxi. 5, 6, 8, 9, 34; xxii. 18, 19, 28; xxiii. 3, 4, 8 (bis), 16, 20, 21; xxiv. 13; xxvii. 16; xxxi. 8; xxxiii. 4; Deut. i. 10, 30, 43; ii. 7, 21; iii. 22; iv. 3, 7, (bis) 20, 24, 33, 36; v. 5 (bis), 11, 22, 23, 24 (bis), 25, 26; vi. 13, 21, 22; ix. 3;xi. 23; xii. 5, 11; xviii. 19; xx. 1; xxi. 20; xxiv. 18, 19; xxvi. 5, 14, 18; xxviii. 7,9, 11, 13, 20, 21, 22, 25, 27, 28, 35, 48, 49, 59, 61, 63, 68; xxix. 2, 4; xxx. 3, 4, 5, 7; xxxi. 5, 8, 23; xxxii. 6, 9, 12, 36; xxxiii. 29; xxxiv. 1, 5, 10, 11.

Class II. Fair: Gen. v. 24; xv. 6; xvi. 1, 13; xviii. 17; xxii. 16; xxix. 31; xxx. 22; xlvi. 4; Ex. ii. 23; iii. 8, 17, 19; iv. 12; vi. 8, xii. 27; xiii. 5, 17; xxxii. 13; xxxiii. 12, 22; Lev. xxvi. 44; Numb. xiv. 30; xx. 12, 21; xxii. 9, 20; xxiv. 4, 16, 23; Deut. viii. 3; xi. 12; xxix. 23; xxxi. 2, 7; xxxii. 18, 23, 26,38, 39, 43, 48, 50, 51; xxxiii. 3, 27; xxxiv. 6.

and there is much more from deut on....lot of interesting Memra Passages in the prophets...

 

[jgredline]

Georges
Thanks for the word. I think you missed my last post so here it is again.
It has really helped me.

Georges
I did a little research on your word. Its great news. It affirms even more so the Diety of Christ

IDENTIFICATION
The Gospel according to John introduces Him with three tremendous statements.
In the beginning was the Word
And the Word was with God
And the Word was God
“The Word†is one of the highest and most profound titles of the Lord Jesus Christ. To determine the exact meaning is not easy. Obviously the Lord Jesus Christ is not the logos of Greek philosophy, rather He is the memra of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Notice how important the Word is in the Old Testament. For instance, the name for Jehovah was never pronounced. It was such a holy word that they never used it at all. But this is the One who is the Word; and gathering up everything that was said of Him in the Old Testament, He is now presented as the One “in the beginning.†This beginning antedates the very first words in the Bible, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.†That beginning can be dated, although I do not believe that anyone can date it accurately. It is nonsense to say that it is 4004 b.c., as Ussher’s dating has it. It probably goes back billions and billions of years. You see, you and I are dealing with the God of eternity. When you go back to creation He is already there, and that is exactly the way this is usedâ€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“in the beginning was the Word.†Notice it is not is the Word; it was not in the beginning that the Word started out or was begotten. Was (as Dr. Lenske points out) is known as a durative imperfect, meaning continued action. It means that the Word was in the beginning. What beginning? Just as far back as you want to go. The Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.†Does that begin God? No, just keep on going back billions and trillions and “squillions†of years. I can think back to billions of years before creation. Maybe you can go beyond that, but let’s put down a point there, billions of years prior to creation. He already was; He comes out of eternity to meet us. He did not begin. “In the beginning was the Wordâ€Ââ€â€He was already there when the beginning was.
“Well,†somebody says, “there has to be a beginning somewhere.†All right, wherever you begin, He is there to meet you, He is already past tense. “In the beginning was the Wordâ€Ââ€â€five words in the original language, and there is not a man on topside of this earth who can put a date on it or understand it or fathom it. This first tremendous statement starts us off in space, you see.
The second statement is this, “And the Word was with God.†This makes it abundantly clear that He is separate and distinct from God the Father. You cannot identify Him as God the Father because He is with God. “But,†someone says, “if He is with God, He is not God.†The third statement sets us straight, “And the Word was God.†This is a clear, emphatic declaration that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. In fact, the Greek is more specific than this, because in the Greek language the important word is placed at the beginning of the sentence and it reads, “God was the Word.†That is emphatic; you cannot get it more emphatic than that. Do you want to get rid of the deity of Christ? My friend, you cannot get rid of it. The first three statements in John’s Gospel tie the thing down.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
INTERPRETATION
Let’s move on down to verse 14 and notice the three statements there:
And the Word was made flesh
And the Word dwelt among us
He was full of grace and truth
The Greek philosopher probably would have stayed with us through verse one, but he leaves us here. He would never agree that the Word was made flesh. The Greek language allows us to put it more specifically and, I think, more accurately, “The Word was born flesh.†Turn this over in your mind for a moment. Here comes God out of eternity, already the Ancient of days; but He also came to Bethlehem, a little baby thing that made a woman cry. And notice that John’s Gospel does not even mention His birth in Bethlehem. Do you know why? He is talking about One who is too big for Bethlehem. Out of eternity, the Word became flesh.
“And [the Word] dwelt among us†is the second statement in John 1:14. “Dwelt†is from skenoo; it means He pitched His tent among us. Our human bodies are merely little tents in which we live. The apostle Paul used the same imagery, “We know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved… †(2 Corinthians 5:1). This house in which we live is a tabernacle, a tent, that can be blown over in a night; it can be snuffed out in an instant. Because you and I live in these little tents, the God of eternity took upon Himself a human body and thus pitched His tent down here among us. Such is the second tremendous statement.
Notice the third, “And we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.†Now John is saying something else. The observation I would naturally make at this point is, “If He was made flesh, He certainly limited Himself.†John says, “Wait a minute. He was full of grace and truth.†The word full means that you just could not have any more. He brought all the deity with Him, and He was full of grace and full of truth when He came down here.
ILLUMINATION
Now we move to verse eighteen to find three statements again:
No man hath seen God at any time The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father He hath declared him
Notice the first, “No man hath seen God at any time.†Why? He will explain it in this Gospel. The Lord Jesus will tell the woman at the well, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truthâ€Ââ€â€for God is spirit. No man has seen God at any time. What about the appearances in the Old Testament? God never revealed Himself in the Old Testament to the eyes of man. What, then, did they see? Well, go back and read the record. For instance, Jacob said that he saw God, but what he saw was the angel of the Lord who wrestled with him. That was a manifestation, but he did not see God, because God is a spirit. “No man hath seen God at any time.â€Â
The second statement is, “The only begotten Son.…†The best Greek text is that of Nestle, the German scholar. He has come to the definite conclusion that it is not the only begotten Son, but the only begotten God. I prefer that also. “… Which is in the bosom of the Father†tells us a great deal. He did not come from the head of God to reveal the wisdom of God; He did not come from the foot of God to be a servant of man. (Have you ever noticed this? Although we speak of the fact that He was a servant, whose shoes did He ever shine? Did He ever run an errand for anybody? He did not. He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent Me.†He was God’s servant. He came to serve Him, and as He served the Father, He served men.) He did not come from the foot; He did not come from the head; it was from the bosom of the Father that He came. He came to reveal the heart of God. He was “the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father.â€Â
The third statement completes verse eighteen, “He hath declared him.†The Greek word here is exegesato. Ago is “to lead†and ex is “out.†It means that what Jesus Christ did was to lead God out into the open. Do you know anything bigger than that? A little trip to the moon is nothing in comparison. Here He comes out of eternity past, the God of this universe, the Creator of everything, taking upon Himself human flesh and bringing God out into the open so that men can know Him. My friend, the only way in the world you can know God is through this One, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ came to reveal God because He is God.
I am not through with these statements; there is something else here. Let’s put together the first verse in each of these three groups and see what we come up with:
In the beginning was the Word (verse 1)
And the Word was made flesh (verse 14)
No man hath seen God at any time (verse 18)
You could not see God; God is spirit. He had to become flesh; He had to become one of us in order for us to know Him. We could not go up there to understand Him; He had to come down here and bring God down where we are.
Now let’s put the second statements together from each of the three groups:
The Word was with God (verse 1)
And dwelt among us (verse 14)
The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father (verse 18)
Consider this One for a momentâ€â€the angels bowed before Him; He was with God, on an equality with God. The apostle Paul wrote of Him, that He “thought it not robbery to be equal with God†(Philippians 2:6). That is, He did not go to school to become God, it was not something He worked overtime to attain. It was not a degree that He earned. He did not try to be God; He was God. I do not mean to be irreverent, but He did not say to the Father when He came to this earth, “Keep Your eye on Gabriel; he is after My jobâ€â€watch him while I’m gone.†He did not have to do that; nobody could take His place. He was God. Here He comes, born in Bethlehem, a few little shepherds there, not many; He goes up to Nazareth; for thirty years He is hidden away in Nazareth. God, out of eternity, comes down and goes to Nazareth, working in a carpenter shop. Why? So you can know God. The only way you will ever know Him, my friend, is to know this One. “The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father,†He is the only One who can reveal God to us.
Now notice the third statement in each group:
The Word was God
And we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only
begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth
He hath declared him
When He was down here, He was still God, full of grace and truth. And He declared Him; He is the only One who can lead Him out in the open where we can get acquainted with Him.
We are not through with this. I want you to see something else. How do you divide up this universe? I sat with a man who designed the shield that has been on all these spacecrafts to make their re-entry. He is a scientist who is an authority on heat. As we had lunch together in New Jersey, he said, “You know, this universe is made up of just three things. I believe that God has put His fingerprints on everythingâ€â€the Trinity is everywhere.†Then he explained what he meant. The universe is divided up into time, space, and matter. Can you think of a fourth? The very interesting thing is that time, space, and matter include everything that is in this universe as you and I know it. Then time can be divided into just three parts: past, present, and future. Can you think of a fourth? And what about space? Length, breadth, and height. Is there another direction? Also in matter there is energy, motion, and phenomena. Those are the three divisions of the three divisions. The universe in which we live bears the mark of the Trinity.
Now notice the way in which the Incarnation is geared into this observation.
Time: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.â€Â
Space: “The Word was made fleshâ€Ââ€â€became flesh, came down into space. Where? To Bethlehem, a little geographical spotâ€â€and even this earth was a pretty small spot for Him to come toâ€â€and He pitched His tent here among us, we beheld His glory, full of grace and truth.
Matter: “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.†Because He became matter, became a man, took upon Himself humanity, men could see and know God. This is the time, space and matter of the Incarnation.
Let’s divide each of these into three. First, let’s look at time.
Past: “In the beginning was the Word.â€Â
Present: “The Word became flesh†(in our day).
Future: “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son … hath declared him.†The apostle Paul, at the end of his life, said, “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection… †(Philippians 3:10). That will be for the futureâ€â€to really know Him; today we actually know so little because we are finite.
Then look at space, divided into length, breadth and height:
Length: “In the beginning was the Word.â€Â
Breadth: He came down to this earth and was made flesh.
Height: No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has come from the heights to set Him before us.
Consider the divisions of matter: energy, motion and phenomena.
Energy: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Godâ€Ââ€â€that’s energy. How did this universe come into existence? God spoke. Every rational person has to confront this problem of how the universe began. That is the reason evolution has been popularâ€â€it offers to the natural man an explanation for the origin of the universe. You must have an explanation for it, if you do any thinking at all. Where did it come from? Well, here is the answer, “In the beginning was the Word.†God spoke. That is the first thing that happened. When God speaks, when the Word speaks, energy is translated into matter. What is atomic fission? It is matter translated back into energyâ€â€poof! it disappears. Creation began with energy. In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, the Word was God.
Motion: The Word was made flesh. He came out of heaven’s glory, and He came to this earth.
Phenomenon: The greatest phenomenon in this world is Jesus Christ. The wonders of the ancient world and the wonders we see in our day are nothing in comparison to the wonder of the Incarnationâ€â€God became man!
These statements are bigger than any of us, and yet they are so simple. We have read them, probably memorized them, yet no man can plumb the depths of them.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.… And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.… No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:1, 14, 18)
These three verses are the great building blocks. Now let us consider some of the cement that holds them together.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:3)
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator. Not only did He exist before Bethlehem, but He created the vast universe, including the material out of which man constructed Bethlehem. All things were made by Him. He is the instrument of creation. Nothing came into existence without Him.

 

[mutzrein]

Hey redline - was that post intended to be so LARGE? Are you short sighted perhaps . . . or just making sure it wouldn't be missed?

 

[Georges]

J,

I never said that Jesus wasn't divine....I just said he wasn't Jehovah....

and...thanks for researching the Memra....although I don't really think you did.....you should really....go to http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com and searh Memra....print it out on paper and seriously go over it...it's easier to do that way and you won't miss points as easily...sometimes just scrolling with the computer screen makes things easy to miss.

I think you would benefit a good deal with a serious look at it...if not just for to know the enemy's (me) side of the argument....I already know yours...I was a trinitarian for 40 years....

 

[jgredline]

J,

I never said that Jesus wasn't divine....I just said he wasn't Jehovah....

and...thanks for researching the Memra....although I don't really think you did.....you should really....go to http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com and searh Memra....print it out on paper and seriously go over it...it's easier to do that way and you won't miss points as easily...sometimes just scrolling with the computer screen makes things easy to miss.

I think you would benefit a good deal with a serious look at it...if not just for to know the enemy's (me) side of the argument....I already know yours...I was a trinitarian for 40 years....

Georges
What are you now?
I studied the above post for about an hour and half and will study it more. Reading it made alot of sense to me.
Thanks again

 

[BradtheImpaler]

In using the original greek
So far I have proven your interpretation of John1:1 false

Please tell me what the definition of "Logos" is in the original Greek.

3056 λόγος [logos /log·os/] n m. From 3004; TDNT 4:69; TDNTA 505; GK 3364; 330 occurrences; AV translates as “word†218 times, “saying†50 times, “account†eight times, “speech†eight times, “Word (Christ)†seven times, “thing†five times, not translated twice, and translated miscellaneously 32 times. 1 of speech. 1a a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea. 1b what someone has said. 1b1 a word. 1b2 the sayings of God. 1b3 decree, mandate or order. 1b4 of the moral precepts given by God. 1b5 Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets. 1b6 what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim. 1c discourse. 1c1 the act of speaking, speech. 1c2 the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking. 1c3 a kind or style of speaking. 1c4 a continuous speaking discourseâ€â€instruction. 1d doctrine, teaching. 1e anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative. 1f matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law. 1g the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed. 2 its use as respect to the MIND alone. 2a reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating. 2b account, i.e. regard, consideration. 2c account, i.e. reckoning, score. 2d account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment. 2e relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation. 2e1 reason would. 2f reason, cause, ground. 3 In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world’s life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man’s salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds. Additional Information: A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John’s purpose in John 1.
Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G3056).

So the Greek definition of the Word (logos) of John 1:1 would be...

The 2nd Person of 3 Persons in the Godhead

or...

"a word, uttered by a living voice, which embodies a conception or idea"..."a word/saying/account/speech/etc"?

:roll:

 

[Georges]

J,

I never said that Jesus wasn't divine....I just said he wasn't Jehovah....

and...thanks for researching the Memra....although I don't really think you did.....you should really....go to http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com and searh Memra....print it out on paper and seriously go over it...it's easier to do that way and you won't miss points as easily...sometimes just scrolling with the computer screen makes things easy to miss.

I think you would benefit a good deal with a serious look at it...if not just for to know the enemy's (me) side of the argument....I already know yours...I was a trinitarian for 40 years....

Georges
What are you now?

I am a God Fearer....A Genitle believer in Jehovah as the Supreme and Jesus as the promised Messiah (Son of God). Based on the last 5 years of studying the subject intently, I am seriously considering Proselyting to Judaism (still honoring Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God). I am convinced that the early Church was Jewish and maintained their Jewish practices...(as it wasn't negated by Christ), that is until Paul taught differently.

What was I? A solid member of the Lutheran Church (Wisconsin Synod) and a firm believer in all its doctines....until I began questioning them.

I studied the above post for about an hour and half and will study it more. Reading it made alot of sense to me.

My only goal is to seek the truth for myself....I am not a know it all, but I do have a burning interest to learn...

Thanks again

 

[Imagican]

Imagican wrote
I KNOW God, and I KNOW Christ and quite often I am filled with and recognize the 'Holy Spirit'. I won't sit here and PULL YOUR LEG and tell you, "God told me this", or 'God told me that'. I won't tell you that I am ALWAYS filled with the Spirit. I AM weak and the ONLY strengnth that I EVER possess comes from ABOVE and NOT of mine own.



Are you sure its the Holy Spirit?
How do you know?

I KNOW this: YOU, my friend, follow the WORLD in a 'generalized' Christianity that has taken the Son of God and elevated Him to a position that HE refuted. Thereby creating 'your OWN god'. This was done IN YOUR HEART. No one has forced you to 'accept' this.

I follow NO churches or men. I follow the Word as revealed to me 'through' Christ. Notice, I state 'trough' Christ. For the Word BELONGS to God. Christ STATES this emphatically. It could NOT have been 'given Him' were it NOT so.

You state what you state and ignore it's contradictory notion. Jesus Himself NEVER taught that 'He WAS God'. The apostles NEVER taught that Jesus WAS God. It took hundreds of years of time to pass before the those that formed the RC 'created' this teaching. Funny, but that means that all the apostles must have been LOST souls such as myself. For these knew of NO 'trinity'.

See how damaging 'your' theology MUST be to those that 'buy into it'? Labeling those that simply follow the Word as heretics because they WON'T 'buy into' your theology. Notice that I state 'buy into' for this is what one MUST do in order to accept 'trinity'. The question is: What is the TRUE cost of purchasing such a doctrine?

Obviously from the tone of your responses and Solo's and others, there is 'something' seriously 'missing' from your understanding. I believe that it is 'LOVE'. I also believe that this hate tainted theory of 'trinity' may actually 'bring about' this 'lack of understanding'. I know that there seems to be a history of hate and persecution affiliated with it's inception into 'Christianity?'

And, WHY do those that accept this 'man-made' theology INSIST that it's SO important that others 'accept it'? By the simply admittance that it is NOT in the Bible, NOR does the Bible teach it, you openly admit that it IS 'man-made'. The Bible WAS a 'man-made' creation. Calvary IS a man-made tradition. Now, what's MORE important: the Word of God or 'man-made' tradition. To follow 'man-made' tradition OVER the Word of God is to do nothing short of creating and worshiping false gods.

Now, to answer your question. I KNOW by the 'fruit' offered through the Spirit that I follow. I KNOW what changes have been wrought in my life and they came about by NO MAN, including myself.

So, you see, my friend, that I have ALL confidence in the Word that I follow rather than what you would have me accept. If my statements are true, then what possible reason would I have to believe in a 'concept' created by men? My relationship with God is 'faultless' through ANY shortcoming of the Father. For 'your' theology to be 'correct' would make MY God incompetent for NOT revealing this 'trinity' to me. Since He is incapable of being incompetent, I MUST assume that it is NOT 'truth'.

Look, it's REAL simple, I follow the Word AS revealed to ME through the Son of God Himself. I have 'bought into' NOTHING. I was LOST and NOW am FOUND and it happened through NO intervention of man save the written Word and the Holy Spirit of God.

That you need question my understanding only goes to show that you are lacking in your ability to discern the 'truth'. Perhaps it has something to do with 'your' understanding. Not surprising, for those that rely on man will ALWAYS falter when it comes to the 'truth'. For EVERY MAN is a liar.

 

[Solo]

Imagican wrote
I KNOW God, and I KNOW Christ and quite often I am filled with and recognize the 'Holy Spirit'. I won't sit here and PULL YOUR LEG and tell you, "God told me this", or 'God told me that'. I won't tell you that I am ALWAYS filled with the Spirit. I AM weak and the ONLY strengnth that I EVER possess comes from ABOVE and NOT of mine own.



Are you sure its the Holy Spirit?
How do you know?

I KNOW this: YOU, my friend, follow the WORLD in a 'generalized' Christianity that has taken the Son of God and elevated Him to a position that HE refuted. Thereby creating 'your OWN god'. This was done IN YOUR HEART. No one has forced you to 'accept' this.

I follow NO churches or men. I follow the Word as revealed to me 'through' Christ. Notice, I state 'trough' Christ. For the Word BELONGS to God. Christ STATES this emphatically. It could NOT have been 'given Him' were it NOT so.

You state what you state and ignore it's contradictory notion. Jesus Himself NEVER taught that 'He WAS God'. The apostles NEVER taught that Jesus WAS God. It took hundreds of years of time to pass before the those that formed the RC 'created' this teaching. Funny, but that means that all the apostles must have been LOST souls such as myself. For these knew of NO 'trinity'.

See how damaging 'your' theology MUST be to those that 'buy into it'? Labeling those that simply follow the Word as heretics because they WON'T 'buy into' your theology. Notice that I state 'buy into' for this is what one MUST do in order to accept 'trinity'. The question is: What is the TRUE cost of purchasing such a doctrine?

Obviously from the tone of your responses and Solo's and others, there is 'something' seriously 'missing' from your understanding. I believe that it is 'LOVE'. I also believe that this hate tainted theory of 'trinity' may actually 'bring about' this 'lack of understanding'. I know that there seems to be a history of hate and persecution affiliated with it's inception into 'Christianity?'

And, WHY do those that accept this 'man-made' theology INSIST that it's SO important that others 'accept it'? By the simply admittance that it is NOT in the Bible, NOR does the Bible teach it, you openly admit that it IS 'man-made'. The Bible WAS a 'man-made' creation. Calvary IS a man-made tradition. Now, what's MORE important: the Word of God or 'man-made' tradition. To follow 'man-made' tradition OVER the Word of God is to do nothing short of creating and worshiping false gods.

Now, to answer your question. I KNOW by the 'fruit' offered through the Spirit that I follow. I KNOW what changes have been wrought in my life and they came about by NO MAN, including myself.

So, you see, my friend, that I have ALL confidence in the Word that I follow rather than what you would have me accept. If my statements are true, then what possible reason would I have to believe in a 'concept' created by men? My relationship with God is 'faultless' through ANY shortcoming of the Father. For 'your' theology to be 'correct' would make MY God incompetent for NOT revealing this 'trinity' to me. Since He is incapable of being incompetent, I MUST assume that it is NOT 'truth'.

Look, it's REAL simple, I follow the Word AS revealed to ME through the Son of God Himself. I have 'bought into' NOTHING. I was LOST and NOW am FOUND and it happened through NO intervention of man save the written Word and the Holy Spirit of God.

That you need question my understanding only goes to show that you are lacking in your ability to discern the 'truth'. Perhaps it has something to do with 'your' understanding. Not surprising, for those that rely on man will ALWAYS falter when it comes to the 'truth'. For EVERY MAN is a liar.

Did Jesus create all things in heaven and earth?

 

[mutzrein]

Solo, I know your question is in response to Imagican and I'm not specifically disagreeing or agreeing with you but can you please point to the scripture that you would use to support Jesus creating all things in heaven. Thanks.

 

[Solo]

Solo, I know your question is in response to Imagican and I'm not specifically disagreeing or agreeing with you but can you please point to the scripture that you would use to support Jesus creating all things in heaven. Thanks.

We will let Imagican respond. Thanks.

 

[Solo]

Solo, I know your question is in response to Imagican and I'm not specifically disagreeing or agreeing with you but can you please point to the scripture that you would use to support Jesus creating all things in heaven. Thanks.

We will let Imagican respond. Thanks.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

NO, Jesus Christ 'did NOT' create ALL things in heaven OR on earth. You're still 'stuck' on that Word thing. The Word is the Word of God, NOT simply Christ. Firstly, He did NOT create God OR the angels created BY God. And, I don't believe that He created EVIL things, whether they be on earth or IN heaven.

I don't know the answer to the 'when' Christ Himself WAS created, but we know that it was 'before' ALL things pertaining to 'man'.

Now, I have answered YOUR question, I have one for YOU:

Luke 18:19

19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Without waxing all 'philosophical' and stuff, what does this 'mean' to you?

MEC

Oh, and I believe in matters that pertain to Salvation, Mutz can pretty much answer 'for' me anytime. This IS NOT a matter of 'who's' right and who's wrong like a 'competition', this is, I thought, serious debate on issues pertaining to the Christian Faith. So, please understand that I have 'officially' given 'my permission' to Mutz to answer in my absence ANY question that he so chooses. (he he he).

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I believe that there is a 'bit' of confusion with 'some' when it comes to the understanding of 'Alpha and Omega' concerning Christ. MOST of what is written in the Word is PERTAINING to 'man'. So, in this respect, I believe that it is IMPORTANT to understand that the reference is to 'that' which pertains to 'mankind'. The Bible does NOT state that in the beginning We decided to create the UNIVERSE. This was confined to the 'creation' of man as far as the Word is concerned.

There is little doubt that the CC had a 'field day' when they 'wrote' the Bible. There ARE certainly words that were altered in favor of 'their' doctrine. The 'truth' is STILL there though. And, the Bible is ONLY the beginning of knowledge and understanding. You know, the apostles had NO Bible. They relied STRICTLY on the words passed from one to another and THE HOLY SPIRIT. So, you see, one that is 'close enough' to God through His Son is able to learn way BEYOND the 'written Word'. And, by the way, even these had problems when it came to 'understanding'.

I have found that NUMEROUS things that have been 'revealed' to me, are totally opposed by those that have NOT received such revelation. Why? I guess these were NOT matter to which most have sought out the 'answers to'. Not surprising, for there are many things that 'have' been revealed to me through others. That IS the purpose of the Body. Paul explains this in numerous places. And NO, I did NOT say churches. The Church IS Crucial to a 'part' of the Body becoming WHOLE. But there is 'little' of The Church' in the churches.

 

[Solo]

Solo,

NO, Jesus Christ 'did NOT' create ALL things in heaven OR on earth. You're still 'stuck' on that Word thing. The Word is the Word of God, NOT simply Christ. Firstly, He did NOT create God OR the angels created BY God. And, I don't believe that He created EVIL things, whether they be on earth or IN heaven.

I don't know the answer to the 'when' Christ Himself WAS created, but we know that it was 'before' ALL things pertaining to 'man'.

Now, I have answered YOUR question, I have one for YOU:

Luke 18:19

19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Without waxing all 'philosophical' and stuff, what does this 'mean' to you?

MEC

Oh, and I believe in matters that pertain to Salvation, Mutz can pretty much answer 'for' me anytime. This IS NOT a matter of 'who's' right and who's wrong like a 'competition', this is, I thought, serious debate on issues pertaining to the Christian Faith. So, please understand that I have 'officially' given 'my permission' to Mutz to answer in my absence ANY question that he so chooses. (he he he).

MEC

As I have stated before, you are preaching another gospel other than the gospel of Jesus Christ given to the Apostles. The spirit by whom you get your revelation is not the Spirit of God, but that of the spirit of antichrist.

12. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Colossians 1:12-20

Also in answer to your question, Jesus was explaining that no man is good, only God, which includes himself, as he is God.

And it is a matter of who is right and who is wrong, and the eternal lives of mankind depend on the truth, Jesus Christ, not the lies of the enemy.

 

[Solo]

I believe that there is a 'bit' of confusion with 'some' when it comes to the understanding of 'Alpha and Omega' concerning Christ. MOST of what is written in the Word is PERTAINING to 'man'. So, in this respect, I believe that it is IMPORTANT to understand that the reference is to 'that' which pertains to 'mankind'. The Bible does NOT state that in the beginning We decided to create the UNIVERSE. This was confined to the 'creation' of man as far as the Word is concerned.

There is little doubt that the CC had a 'field day' when they 'wrote' the Bible. There ARE certainly words that were altered in favor of 'their' doctrine. The 'truth' is STILL there though. And, the Bible is ONLY the beginning of knowledge and understanding. You know, the apostles had NO Bible. They relied STRICTLY on the words passed from one to another and THE HOLY SPIRIT. So, you see, one that is 'close enough' to God through His Son is able to learn way BEYOND the 'written Word'. And, by the way, even these had problems when it came to 'understanding'.

I have found that NUMEROUS things that have been 'revealed' to me, are totally opposed by those that have NOT received such revelation. Why? I guess these were NOT matter to which most have sought out the 'answers to'. Not surprising, for there are many things that 'have' been revealed to me through others. That IS the purpose of the Body. Paul explains this in numerous places. And NO, I did NOT say churches. The Church IS Crucial to a 'part' of the Body becoming WHOLE. But there is 'little' of The Church' in the churches.

None of this has any scriptural backing whatsoever. The Apostles had the written Word of God up to that point in the Law and the Prophets. Jesus quoted and read from them. After the Spirit fell on the Apostles and Men of God, they wrote the inspired Word of God given them in the Spirit as designated by Paul, Peter, John, etc.

 

[mutzrein]

Hey Imagican - would be a big call letting me answer for you :wink:

But a question for both of you. When God speaks, what does he create?

 

[Imagican]

Wisdom?

 

[Imagican]

I believe that there is a 'bit' of confusion with 'some' when it comes to the understanding of 'Alpha and Omega' concerning Christ. MOST of what is written in the Word is PERTAINING to 'man'. So, in this respect, I believe that it is IMPORTANT to understand that the reference is to 'that' which pertains to 'mankind'. The Bible does NOT state that in the beginning We decided to create the UNIVERSE. This was confined to the 'creation' of man as far as the Word is concerned.

There is little doubt that the CC had a 'field day' when they 'wrote' the Bible. There ARE certainly words that were altered in favor of 'their' doctrine. The 'truth' is STILL there though. And, the Bible is ONLY the beginning of knowledge and understanding. You know, the apostles had NO Bible. They relied STRICTLY on the words passed from one to another and THE HOLY SPIRIT. So, you see, one that is 'close enough' to God through His Son is able to learn way BEYOND the 'written Word'. And, by the way, even these had problems when it came to 'understanding'.

I have found that NUMEROUS things that have been 'revealed' to me, are totally opposed by those that have NOT received such revelation. Why? I guess these were NOT matter to which most have sought out the 'answers to'. Not surprising, for there are many things that 'have' been revealed to me through others. That IS the purpose of the Body. Paul explains this in numerous places. And NO, I did NOT say churches. The Church IS Crucial to a 'part' of the Body becoming WHOLE. But there is 'little' of The Church' in the churches.

None of this has any scriptural backing whatsoever. The Apostles had the written Word of God up to that point in the Law and the Prophets. Jesus quoted and read from them. After the Spirit fell on the Apostles and Men of God, they wrote the inspired Word of God given them in the Spirit as designated by Paul, Peter, John, etc.

See, this is 'what' I was talking about: A pure and utter example of one's 'lack of understanding'. You state this with the 'appearance' of authority. Solo, are you totally 'unaware' of 'who' the apostles were? These were IGNORANT Galileans. Most could neither READ or WRITE. So, 'how' do you suppose they 'read' the Word that existed previous to Christ? These were NOT rabi's trained in the religion of the time. These were ignorant fishermen and the likes. Way too busy making a living through the labor of their hands to learn the skills needed to read and write. Yes, Paul WAS an EXCEPTION. But the rest, for you to offer that these were EVEN able to read, much less WRITE is fictitious to an awful degree. And Luke, the physician WASN"T even an apostle, nor was Mark. And we don't really KNOW who wrote WHAT as far as the ACTUAL books of the Bible. They certainly have names on them and were certainly 'dictated' by those possessing these names, but 'who' WROTE them. Your guess is as good as mine. Paul WAS educated, but other than HIM and John, name one of the apostles that you believe was even able to 'write' his OWN name.