Impossible Questions For Trinitarians

[Solo]

I believe that there is a 'bit' of confusion with 'some' when it comes to the understanding of 'Alpha and Omega' concerning Christ. MOST of what is written in the Word is PERTAINING to 'man'. So, in this respect, I believe that it is IMPORTANT to understand that the reference is to 'that' which pertains to 'mankind'. The Bible does NOT state that in the beginning We decided to create the UNIVERSE. This was confined to the 'creation' of man as far as the Word is concerned.

There is little doubt that the CC had a 'field day' when they 'wrote' the Bible. There ARE certainly words that were altered in favor of 'their' doctrine. The 'truth' is STILL there though. And, the Bible is ONLY the beginning of knowledge and understanding. You know, the apostles had NO Bible. They relied STRICTLY on the words passed from one to another and THE HOLY SPIRIT. So, you see, one that is 'close enough' to God through His Son is able to learn way BEYOND the 'written Word'. And, by the way, even these had problems when it came to 'understanding'.

I have found that NUMEROUS things that have been 'revealed' to me, are totally opposed by those that have NOT received such revelation. Why? I guess these were NOT matter to which most have sought out the 'answers to'. Not surprising, for there are many things that 'have' been revealed to me through others. That IS the purpose of the Body. Paul explains this in numerous places. And NO, I did NOT say churches. The Church IS Crucial to a 'part' of the Body becoming WHOLE. But there is 'little' of The Church' in the churches.

None of this has any scriptural backing whatsoever. The Apostles had the written Word of God up to that point in the Law and the Prophets. Jesus quoted and read from them. After the Spirit fell on the Apostles and Men of God, they wrote the inspired Word of God given them in the Spirit as designated by Paul, Peter, John, etc.

See, this is 'what' I was talking about: A pure and utter example of one's 'lack of understanding'. You state this with the 'appearance' of authority. Solo, are you totally 'unaware' of 'who' the apostles were? These were IGNORANT Galileans. Most could neither READ or WRITE. So, where 'how' do you suppose they 'read' the Word that existed previous to Christ? These were NOT rabi's trained in the religion of the time. These were ignorant fishermen and the likes. Way too busy making a living through the labor of their hands to learn the skills needed to read and write. Yes, Paul WAS an EXCEPTION. But the rest, for you to offer that these were EVEN able to read, much less WRITE is fictitious to an awful degree. And Luke, the physician WASN"T even an apostle, nor was Mark. And we don't really KNOW who wrote WHAT as far as the ACTUAL books of the Bible. They certainly have names on them and were certainly 'dictated' by those possessing these names, but 'who' WROTE them. Your guess is as good as mine. Paul WAS educated, but other than HIM and John, name one of the apostles that you believe was even able to 'write' his OWN name.

Your ignorance transcends that of your pitiful statement that the Apostles were Ignorant Galileans and Ignorant Fishermen. Peter wrote two books contained in our Bible, Matthew was a tax collector and wrote a gospel. Luke was a Physician and traveled with Paul on his missionary journeys and he wrote a gospel and the book of Acts. John was multi-lingual and wrote five books of the New Testament, Paul wrote 12 or 13 books depending on whether you agree that Barnabus or Paul wrote the book Hebrews. Mark was a child witness of Jesus during Jesus' ministry and a fellow missionary with Paul and Barnabus and he wrote a gospel. Jude and James each wrote a book of the Bible, and Timothy was taught and knew the scriptures from his youth and he wrote two books of the Bible.

You are showing your naked fanny each time you post something here of late. I suspect that you need to be born of God so that the Holy Spirit guides you instead of the spirit of antiChrist.

 

[Vic C.]

There is little doubt that the CC had a 'field day' when they 'wrote' the Bible. There ARE certainly words that were altered in favor of 'their' doctrine. The 'truth' is STILL there though. And, the Bible is ONLY the beginning of knowledge and understanding. You know, the apostles had NO Bible. They relied STRICTLY on the words passed from one to another and THE HOLY SPIRIT. So, you see, one that is 'close enough' to God through His Son is able to learn way BEYOND the 'written Word'. And, by the way, even these had problems when it came to 'understanding'.

I'm really not sure how you came up with this. You can't blame it solely on the RCC. You also have to look at the MMS they used. Thay favored the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (Alexandrian Text). Changed and missing words start there. Bibles such as the KJ, YLT and LITV don't have the same problem, IMO, because they have their roots in the Byzantine Text.

http://www.cob-net.org/compare.htm

Why do you say the apostles had no Bible? They and Jesus and others all had the Septuagint, which also included the Deuterocanonical books. Just look at how many time "it is written" appears in the NT.

If you mean learning beyond the Word as in "interpretation inspired by the Holy Spiritand not from man", then I agree. If you mean inspiration outside the Word of God, then... :o

 

[jgredline]

I believe that there is a 'bit' of confusion with 'some' when it comes to the understanding of 'Alpha and Omega' concerning Christ. MOST of what is written in the Word is PERTAINING to 'man'. So, in this respect, I believe that it is IMPORTANT to understand that the reference is to 'that' which pertains to 'mankind'. The Bible does NOT state that in the beginning We decided to create the UNIVERSE. This was confined to the 'creation' of man as far as the Word is concerned.

There is little doubt that the CC had a 'field day' when they 'wrote' the Bible. There ARE certainly words that were altered in favor of 'their' doctrine. The 'truth' is STILL there though. And, the Bible is ONLY the beginning of knowledge and understanding. You know, the apostles had NO Bible. They relied STRICTLY on the words passed from one to another and THE HOLY SPIRIT. So, you see, one that is 'close enough' to God through His Son is able to learn way BEYOND the 'written Word'. And, by the way, even these had problems when it came to 'understanding'.

I have found that NUMEROUS things that have been 'revealed' to me, are totally opposed by those that have NOT received such revelation. Why? I guess these were NOT matter to which most have sought out the 'answers to'. Not surprising, for there are many things that 'have' been revealed to me through others. That IS the purpose of the Body. Paul explains this in numerous places. And NO, I did NOT say churches. The Church IS Crucial to a 'part' of the Body becoming WHOLE. But there is 'little' of The Church' in the churches.

None of this has any scriptural backing whatsoever. The Apostles had the written Word of God up to that point in the Law and the Prophets. Jesus quoted and read from them. After the Spirit fell on the Apostles and Men of God, they wrote the inspired Word of God given them in the Spirit as designated by Paul, Peter, John, etc.

See, this is 'what' I was talking about: A pure and utter example of one's 'lack of understanding'. You state this with the 'appearance' of authority. Solo, are you totally 'unaware' of 'who' the apostles were? These were IGNORANT Galileans. Most could neither READ or WRITE. So, where 'how' do you suppose they 'read' the Word that existed previous to Christ? These were NOT rabi's trained in the religion of the time. These were ignorant fishermen and the likes. Way too busy making a living through the labor of their hands to learn the skills needed to read and write. Yes, Paul WAS an EXCEPTION. But the rest, for you to offer that these were EVEN able to read, much less WRITE is fictitious to an awful degree. And Luke, the physician WASN"T even an apostle, nor was Mark. And we don't really KNOW who wrote WHAT as far as the ACTUAL books of the Bible. They certainly have names on them and were certainly 'dictated' by those possessing these names, but 'who' WROTE them. Your guess is as good as mine. Paul WAS educated, but other than HIM and John, name one of the apostles that you believe was even able to 'write' his OWN name.

Your ignorance transcends that of your pitiful statement that the Apostles were Ignorant Galileans and Ignorant Fishermen. Peter wrote two books contained in our Bible, Matthew was a tax collector and wrote a gospel. Luke was a Physician and traveled with Paul on his missionary journeys and he wrote a gospel and the book of Acts. John was multi-lingual and wrote five books of the New Testament, Paul wrote 12 or 13 books depending on whether you agree that Barnabus or Paul wrote the book Hebrews. Mark was a child witness of Jesus during Jesus' ministry and a fellow missionary with Paul and Barnabus and he wrote a gospel. Jude and James each wrote a book of the Bible, and Timothy was taught and knew the scriptures from his youth and he wrote two books of the Bible.

You are showing your naked fanny each time you post something here of late. I suspect that you need to be born of God so that the Holy Spirit guides you instead of the spirit of antiChrist.

Solo
You are so very 100% correct in your above statement. I applaud you for standing up to these false teachers who can't possibly know the the things of God becuase they don't have the Holy Spirit of God to help and interpret the scriptures. Come to think of it they don't even believe in the Triune God so there is no Holy spirit according to their beliefs.

 

[mutzrein]

Wisdom?

Of course God is the author of all wisdom and knowledge but what I was looking for was this: God speaks - and His Word is created.

What happened in the beginning? God Spoke. In the beginning was the Word.

And the word that God spoke, reflects or shows us God. And therefore we can say that The word was God. Just the same as when I speak, the words that emanate from my mouth are me. They announce to the world, “I am Ed.â€Â

BUT there is still a distinction between the words themselves and the one who speaks the words. And this is what it means when it says 'and the Word was with God'

So in one sense, the Word IS God and in another sense, the Word is WITH God.

So now we can see that all that was created, was created THROUGH the Word and without the Word, nothing was created.

And later of course, the Word became flesh.

Everything that Jesus spoke regarding the Father such as: Coming from the Father, Being in the Father and he in Him, I and the Father are one, speaking to Peter when he wanted to be shown the Father, and stating before Abraham was, ‘I AM’ and more. It all fits to perfection and in fact now that I know it, I wonder how is it I have never seen these things before – because for years I was also indoctrinated otherwise.

You know I have been through this before and perhaps said it in different ways but I want to make this absolutely clear. I did not arrive at the point of understanding the relationship between the Word and God by any academic study of scripture be it English, Greek or whatever. Nor have I been convinced of it by any man.

No man taught me this because God revealed it to me by His Spirit. It is one of those occasions when, without even looking for it, but having a yearning for the truth, understanding is suddenly given and the knowledge of what has been given is cemented like concrete in a split second.

Now I realise there will be those who will rile against me. Why? Because their theology cannot accept what I say. But it matters not. What God has revealed, He has revealed and if God chooses to reveal something to me and not another, what business is that of mine.

 

[Oscar3]

Wisdom?

Of course God is the author of all wisdom and knowledge but what I was looking for was this: God speaks - and His Word is created.

What happened in the beginning? God Spoke. In the beginning was the Word.

And the word that God spoke, reflects or shows us God. And therefore we can say that The word was God. Just the same as when I speak, the words that emanate from my mouth are me. They announce to the world, “I am Ed.â€Â

BUT there is still a distinction between the words themselves and the one who speaks the words. And this is what it means when it says 'and the Word was with God'

So in one sense, the Word IS God and in another sense, the Word is WITH God.

So now we can see that all that was created, was created THROUGH the Word and without the Word, nothing was created.

And later of course, the Word became flesh.

Everything that Jesus spoke regarding the Father such as: Coming from the Father, Being in the Father and he in Him, I and the Father are one, speaking to Peter when he wanted to be shown the Father, and stating before Abraham was, ‘I AM’ and more. It all fits to perfection and in fact now that I know it, I wonder how is it I have never seen these things before – because for years I was also indoctrinated otherwise.

You know I have been through this before and perhaps said it in different ways but I want to make this absolutely clear. I did not arrive at the point of understanding the relationship between the Word and God by any academic study of scripture be it English, Greek or whatever. Nor have I been convinced of it by any man.

No man taught me this because God revealed it to me by His Spirit. It is one of those occasions when, without even looking for it, but having a yearning for the truth, understanding is suddenly given and the knowledge of what has been given is cemented like concrete in a split second.

Now I realise there will be those who will rile against me. Why? Because their theology cannot accept what I say. But it matters not. What God has revealed, He has revealed and if God chooses to reveal something to me and not another, what business is that of mine.

I read your post twice and I don't understand it.
Let me ask you a direct couple of questions if you don't mind.

1 do you beleive in the trinity?
2 do you beleive Jesus was created?
3 do you beleive Jesus is God

I ask because I don't want to assume anything about you. I am here to learn.
Thank you Oscar

 

[mutzrein]

I read your post twice and I don't understand it.
Let me ask you a direct couple of questions if you don't mind.

1 do you beleive in the trinity?
2 do you beleive Jesus was created?
3 do you beleive Jesus is God

I ask because I don't want to assume anything about you. I am here to learn.
Thank you Oscar

No problem Oscar

Do I believe in THE Trinity? No - not as it is commonly accepted by much of Christendom. I have no problem with the concept of A trinity though. I am a trinity - body, soul & spirit.

Do I believe Jesus was created? That depends on your interpretation of 'created'. So just to confuse you I'll ask a question. Have I been created? Most would say 'yes'. When? At birth? At conception? How is it then that God has known me since before the foundations of the earth?

Do I believe Jesus is God? No, he is the son of God. He, even now is seated on the right hand of God making intercession for us. Scripture tells us that God has placed all things (except God himself) under Jesus feet.

Does that help?
Ed

 

[Oscar3]

I read your post twice and I don't understand it.
Let me ask you a direct couple of questions if you don't mind.

1 do you beleive in the trinity?
2 do you beleive Jesus was created?
3 do you beleive Jesus is God

I ask because I don't want to assume anything about you. I am here to learn.
Thank you Oscar

No problem Oscar

Do I believe in THE Trinity? No - not as it is commonly accepted by much of Christendom. I have no problem with the concept of A trinity though. I am a trinity - body, soul & spirit.

Do I believe Jesus was created? That depends on your interpretation of 'created'. So just to confuse you I'll ask a question. Have I been created? Most would say 'yes'. When? At birth? At conception? How is it then that God has known me since before the foundations of the earth?

Do I believe Jesus is God? No, he is the son of God. He, even now is seated on the right hand of God making intercession for us. Scripture tells us that God has placed all things (except God himself) under Jesus feet.

Does that help?
Ed

Thank you very much.
You make alot of sense to me. infact you have put up the best argument I have read on a unitarium view. While I don't agree with it, it is a breath of fresh air to get a clear and simple answer. Others that try and teach on this subject should pay attention to your style and answer.
God bless Oscar.

 

[jgredline]

I read your post twice and I don't understand it.
Let me ask you a direct couple of questions if you don't mind.

1 do you beleive in the trinity?
2 do you beleive Jesus was created?
3 do you beleive Jesus is God

I ask because I don't want to assume anything about you. I am here to learn.
Thank you Oscar

No problem Oscar

Do I believe in THE Trinity? No - not as it is commonly accepted by much of Christendom. I have no problem with the concept of A trinity though. I am a trinity - body, soul & spirit.

Do I believe Jesus was created? That depends on your interpretation of 'created'. So just to confuse you I'll ask a question. Have I been created? Most would say 'yes'. When? At birth? At conception? How is it then that God has known me since before the foundations of the earth?

Do I believe Jesus is God? No, he is the son of God. He, even now is seated on the right hand of God making intercession for us. Scripture tells us that God has placed all things (except God himself) under Jesus feet.

Does that help?
Ed

Mut
I gots to tell you that I completely disagree with your three statements.
However I absolutly respect you for your honesty in your answers and for answering Oscars questions.
Most people that believe the way do dance around the questions and start trying to get all intellectual speaking with big words and pretending they know greek and hebrew etc etc.
Thanks JG

 

[mutzrein]

Thankyou Oscar. Thankyou JG.

Your responses are also refreshing. As I have an alternate point of view to mainstream Christendom I am often berated for it and accused of not being a Christian. Some have stated they believe I have aligned myself to a cult or even the occult and have 'accepted' doctrines of demons.

There is one thing that I am reminded of when accusations such as this are made. And that is what Jesus said, "By their fruit you shall know them."

Now to me, fruit is not something that I do. It is the natural consequence of my life as I abide in the vine (which is Christ) and walk according to the light that has been given me. It matters not that others disagree with what I say. If the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in me and you, then we are one in Spirit. And we know that if we are born of the Spirit of God that it is the Spirit that will lead us into all truth.

 

[Imagican]

Amen Brother!!

 

[mutzrein]

Amen Brother!!

Good News Imagican - have you been absent for a day or so?

 

[Imagican]

Yep, even I have to work sometimes. he he he.

 

[Free]

There is one thing that I am reminded of when accusations such as this are made. And that is what Jesus said, "By their fruit you shall know them."

Of course this point is irrelevant since it is done by all sides.

It matters not that others disagree with what I say. If the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in me and you, then we are one in Spirit.

But here you are assuming the very thing is trying to be proved. The very thing at stake is whether or not it is in fact the same Spirit that dwells in those who believe Jesus is God and those who don't, so your argument here will not do.

It ought to matter very much that people disagree with you, particularly that most of Christendom disagrees with you. Not that the majority believing something makes it right, but it should matter what they think and why, especially if you are interested in seeking the truth. It's easy to say that the Holy Spirit will guide you to the truth, but if you aren't really listening to what others say, it gets very difficult to find the truth.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

So the Greek definition of the Word (logos) of John 1:1 would be...

The 2nd Person of 3 Persons in the Godhead

or...

"a word, uttered by a living voice, which embodies a conception or idea"..."a word/saying/account/speech/etc"?[/quote]

 

[Free]

So the Greek definition of the Word (logos) of John 1:1 would be...

The 2nd Person of 3 Persons in the Godhead

or...

"a word, uttered by a living voice, which embodies a conception or idea"..."a word/saying/account/speech/etc"?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

You tell me.

 

[jgredline]

God is one in essence, but three in persons. God has one nature, but three centers of consciousness. That is, there is only one What in God, but there are three whos.
There is one it, but three I’s. This is a mystery, but not a contradiction. It would be contradictory to say God was only one person, but also was three persons. Or that God is only one nature, but that he also has three natures. But to declare as orthodox Christians do, that God is one essence, eternally revealed in three distinct persons is not a contradiction.

 

[Georges]

So the Greek definition of the Word (logos) of John 1:1 would be...

The 2nd Person of 3 Persons in the Godhead

or...

"a word, uttered by a living voice, which embodies a conception or idea"..."a word/saying/account/speech/etc"?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word[/b[b]](Memra), and the Word [/b](Memra)was with God (Jehovah), and the Word [/b](Memra)was God (Elohim, not Jehovah).
Joh 1:2 He[/b](The Memra) was in the beginning with God (Jehovah).
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him[/b](The Memra), and without him[/b](The Memra) was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him[/b[color=red[b]]](The Memra)[/color] was life, and the life was the light of men.

You tell me.

Free...you tell us....since the "Word, Memra" is a Hebrew concept which means the "creative word of God"....is it a person?

I added the Hebrew concepts of John 1:1 in red...for reference...

Jehovah (EL), Elohhim, and the Memra.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

Been away for a few days. Haven't ignored your post for lack of reply.

You have done NOTHING, once again, other than choose to call others names and ridicule:

Now, I want you to 'show' some 'proof' to these good people that these that 'you claim' actually 'WROTE' the books in their names.

Firstly: neither Mark NOR Luke were apostles. I think I already admitted that these two were educated. Now, show some 'proof' that ANY of the other apostles, besides Paul and John, and perhaps Peter, EVER actually WROTE ANYTHING.

As stated previous and now I will add the 'proof' of MY STATEMENTS:

Acts 2:7

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

There IS significance behind this statement BEYOND the words. For it is worthy to note that those of Israel considered the Galilaeans to be nothing but 'ignorant fishermen' and such. Thus, the significance of the statement above:

And they were ALL AMAZED and MARVELLED, saying one to another, Behold, are not ALL these which speak Galilaeans?

Empasis mine. But, when you place this emphasis it becomes apparent the significance of the ENTIRE statement.

Once again, it was a COMMON perception among those in Israel that the Galilaeans were MOSTLY ignorant fisherman and the like. Thus we have statements throughout the Bible that God has taken the 'SIMPLE' and revealed His message to 'them'.

I DON'T know which of the apostles WERE capable of writting other than Paul and John. NO ONE knows FOR SURE if the books to which you referred were ACTUALLY written by those whose names were penned to them. It is DOUBTFUL that ANY but Paul and John were even ABLE to write their OWN NAMES, much less letters.

Are you NOT aware of the significance of the apostles 'speaking in tongues'? For these were individuals who were 'barely' even able to properly speak 'their OWN language', so imagine the surprise that the hearers of 'their OWN languages' experienced upon the 'hearing' of the apostles speaking in 'their' languages in which they could NOT have learned.

 

[Free]

So the Greek definition of the Word (logos) of John 1:1 would be...

The 2nd Person of 3 Persons in the Godhead

or...

"a word, uttered by a living voice, which embodies a conception or idea"..."a word/saying/account/speech/etc"?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word[/b[b]](Memra), and the Word [/b](Memra)was with God (Jehovah), and the Word [/b](Memra)was God (Elohim, not Jehovah).
Joh 1:2 He[/b](The Memra) was in the beginning with God (Jehovah).
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him[/b](The Memra), and without him[/b](The Memra) was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him[/b[color=red[b]]](The Memra)[/color] was life, and the life was the light of men.

You tell me.

Free...you tell us....since the "Word, Memra" is a Hebrew concept which means the "creative word of God"....is it a person?

I added the Hebrew concepts of John 1:1 in red...for reference...

Jehovah (EL), Elohhim, and the Memra.

How about you tell me if "Memra" is what is in view or is it the Greek "Logos"? Are the two synonomous?

 

[Solo]

Solo,

Been away for a few days. Haven't ignored your post for lack of reply.

You have done NOTHING, once again, other than choose to call others names and ridicule:

Now, I want you to 'show' some 'proof' to these good people that these that 'you claim' actually 'WROTE' the books in their names.

Firstly: neither Mark NOR Luke were apostles. I think I already admitted that these two were educated. Now, show some 'proof' that ANY of the other apostles, besides Paul and John, and perhaps Peter, EVER actually WROTE ANYTHING.

As stated previous and now I will add the 'proof' of MY STATEMENTS:

Acts 2:7

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

There IS significance behind this statement BEYOND the words. For it is worthy to note that those of Israel considered the Galilaeans to be nothing but 'ignorant fishermen' and such. Thus, the significance of the statement above:

And they were ALL AMAZED and MARVELLED, saying one to another, Behold, are not ALL these which speak Galilaeans?

Empasis mine. But, when you place this emphasis it becomes apparent the significance of the ENTIRE statement.

Once again, it was a COMMON perception among those in Israel that the Galilaeans were MOSTLY ignorant fisherman and the like. Thus we have statements throughout the Bible that God has taken the 'SIMPLE' and revealed His message to 'them'.

I DON'T know which of the apostles WERE capable of writting other than Paul and John. NO ONE knows FOR SURE if the books to which you referred were ACTUALLY written by those whose names were penned to them. It is DOUBTFUL that ANY but Paul and John were even ABLE to write their OWN NAMES, much less letters.

Are you NOT aware of the significance of the apostles 'speaking in tongues'? For these were individuals who were 'barely' even able to properly speak 'their OWN language', so imagine the surprise that the hearers of 'their OWN languages' experienced upon the 'hearing' of the apostles speaking in 'their' languages in which they could NOT have learned.

Believe what you want, it's your choice. You will not be living in the truth until you submit to the LORDSHIP of Jesus Christ. When that happens, you will be set free from the chains of unbelief and deception. May God bless you with his understanding and wisdom.