Impossible Questions For Trinitarians

[R7-12]

Hi George,

You said,

sorry about drifting from the thread...your verse just caught my eye...I never considered it closely before.

No problem, it’s a valid question and may prove to buy the Trinitarian camp some time to respond to the question at hand.

You asked,

In regard to Rev 1:1.....consider this....

1. Who are the servants servant to? God, Jesus, or both?
2. Is the angel mentioned, Jesus, or another messenger?
3. Who is the "he" and who is the "angel"...Is the "he" God, and the "angel" Christ?

Let’s examine the text in Revelation one section at a time and glean the logical Biblical truths that it, along with the rest of the written word, will provide according to the will of Almighty God.

Revelation 1:1 in the NKJV states,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servantsâ€â€things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John.

The NASB renders it,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, things which must shortly take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bon-servant John.

The RSV,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.

NEB,

This is the revelation given by God to Jesus Christ. It was given to him so that he might show his servants what must shortly happen. He made it know by sending his angel to his servant John.

YLT,

A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John

Most are similar and appear to agree on the major points. We may also look at a literal Greek rendering in English,

(The) Revelation of Jesus Christ which gave to him the theos to show the slaves of him which (things) it is binding to occur in quickness and he showed by signs having sent off through the angel of him to the slave of him John.

Working from the NKJV, the first section states,
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

The revelation was given to Jesus Christ by theos (God). Thus we can conclude that God, the Father of Jesus Christ, gave him by revelation that which is to follow.

to show His servantsâ€â€things which must shortly take place

The word servants is from SGD 1401 doulos, a slave or bondman. A slave is owned by his master. It could just as easily have been rendered in the singular instead of the plural form – servant or slave (please correct me if I’m wrong).

So far we have,

A revelation to Jesus Christ which God gave him to show his (Messiah's) servant(s) things which will soon take place.

The next section reads,
And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John.

Sent is from SGD 649 apostello 1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed 2) to send away, dismiss 2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty 2b) to order one to depart, send off

Signified is from SGD 4591 semaino 1) to give a sign, to signify, indicate, 2) to make known

Here we have God’s angel being appointed or ordered to signify or make known by signs/symbolism (things which will soon take place), to his (Messiah’s) servant John.

1. Who are the servants servant to? God, Jesus, or both?
A: The servant is the slave of Christ and by default also of God.

2. Is the angel mentioned, Jesus, or another messenger?
A: The angel is Christ.

3. Who is the "he" and who is the "angel"...Is the "he" God, and the "angel" Christ?[/quote]
A: Yes.

A revelation to Jesus Christ which God gave him to show his (God’s) servant(s) things which will soon take place. And He (God) appointed and identified it by His angel to his (Messiah’s) servant John.

The construction of the verse is essentially in two distinct sentences. The first identifies that something (a revelation) was given, to whom it was given (Jesus Christ), who gave it (God), and what that revelation involved (events soon to happen).

The second sentence reiterates who gave the appointment (God) to communicate the revelation, and it identifies a second time to whom it was revealed, but not by name, by title (God’s Angel or Messenger). It then identifies whom the revelation was intended for (John).

The unavoidable conclusion is that Revelation 1:1 identifies Jesus Christ as the Angel of God who was the messenger of the revelation which was given to him by God to pass on to John.

Thanks for asking the questions, I enjoyed developing this mini-study and the revelations in this text are very important to consider.

R7-12

 

[Solo]

.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Revelation 22:16

.

 

[Imagican]

Quazar,

I started to debate your opening statement and then realized that 'your' church was not capitalized. I don't know if this was intentional. If so, then I am forced to agree. If not, and you were referring to The Church, you couldn't be further from the 'truth'. For the ONLY fathers that I know of concerning The Church are those that were commissioned to 'start' It, hence the Church 'fathers'.

These, my friend, did NOT 'create' the 'trinity'. There is never ONE mention of this word or concept by the apostles. Niether God, Christ NOR the apostles EVER mentioned 'trinity'. This is a 'purely' man-made doctrine that we have NO proof EVEN existed until hundreds of years AFTER Christ's death.

So, either you recognize what I have offered here and deliberately spoke of the RCC as 'the church', or you are being deliberately misleading to those that 'don't know any better'.

 

[R7-12]

Solo,

You wrote,

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Revelation 22:16

So what turns on that?

R7-12

 

[Solo]

Solo,

You wrote,

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Revelation 22:16

So what turns on that?

R7-12

Pray for understanding and wisdom, and you will understand who sent the angel, and whos angel was sent.

 

[R7-12]

Solo,

You posted the text in isolation.

I'm not asking you how I might figure out what you were trying to say by it.

I'm asking you what the purpose of it was.

Do you have an answer?

R7-12

 

[Solo]

Solo,

You posted the text in isolation.

I'm not asking you how I might figure out what you were trying to say by it.

I'm asking you what the purpose of it was.

Do you have an answer?

R7-12

Again, Pray for understanding and wisdom, and you will understand who sent the angel, and whos angel was sent.

 

[gingercat]

Solo,

You posted the text in isolation.

I'm not asking you how I might figure out what you were trying to say by it.

I'm asking you what the purpose of it was.

Do you have an answer?

R7-12

Solo is stumped. He cannot answer to your confrontation.

 

[mutzrein]

God is Spirit, and God coming in the flesh as Jesus Christ is necessary to believe in order to not be anti-Christ. Jesus, Immanuel, God with us, the Word who is God, the I am before Abraham, is a simple understanding for those who are born of God.

The interpretation that you have put on each and every one of these points has been debunked Solo. Acceptance of the trinity and your 'simple understanding' of who Jesus is, is not a requirement for those who are born of God.

The truth of Jesus being God, Jehovah has not been debunked; only unbelieved by those deceived by the doctrines of devils. The knowing of the one God in his three persons of Jehovah, Word, and Spirit is realized at the birth of the Spirit to those whom the Spirit determines. Even the "simple" understand who Jesus is when they are born of God.

Solo - I am but a simple man redeemed by the precious blood of the lamb of God, Christ my saviour. And it is by the Spirit of the living God that I have been born again, not to grovel in these doctrines of men wherin they seek to place conditions on my salvation. I am born again, not by man's determination or by adherence to any doctrine but born of God.
As scripture says, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

 

[Solo]

God is Spirit, and God coming in the flesh as Jesus Christ is necessary to believe in order to not be anti-Christ. Jesus, Immanuel, God with us, the Word who is God, the I am before Abraham, is a simple understanding for those who are born of God.

The interpretation that you have put on each and every one of these points has been debunked Solo. Acceptance of the trinity and your 'simple understanding' of who Jesus is, is not a requirement for those who are born of God.

The truth of Jesus being God, Jehovah has not been debunked; only unbelieved by those deceived by the doctrines of devils. The knowing of the one God in his three persons of Jehovah, Word, and Spirit is realized at the birth of the Spirit to those whom the Spirit determines. Even the "simple" understand who Jesus is when they are born of God.

Solo - I am but a simple man redeemed by the precious blood of the lamb of God, Christ my saviour. And it is by the Spirit of the living God that I have been born again, not to grovel in these doctrines of men wherin they seek to place conditions on my salvation. I am born again, not by man's determination or by adherence to any doctrine but born of God.
As scripture says, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Those who are born of God know God, and are known by God the Savior, Jesus Christ. the First and the Last.

 

[R7-12]

Solo,

You said,

Those who are born of God know God, and are known by God the Savior, Jesus Christ. the First and the Last.

If you are truly born of God as you claim you would be of the elect of God who practice righteousness. The Bible says that everyone who does not practice righteousness are children of the devil and therefore anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God.

Please share with us how you fulfill this biblical requirement. In other words, how do you practice righteousness?

Will you answer or will you find a reason to refuse or give a non-answer such as, "that's personal, it's between me and my God" or "I live by faith according to the Word."

This is your opportunity to put your money where your mouth is and prove what you have been claiming all along on this forum.

How do you answer Solo?

R7-12

 

[Solo]

Solo,

You said,

Those who are born of God know God, and are known by God the Savior, Jesus Christ. the First and the Last.

If you are truly born of God as you claim you would be of the elect of God who practice righteousness. The Bible says that everyone who does not practice righteousness are children of the devil and therefore anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God.

Please share with us how you fulfill this biblical requirement. In other words, how do you practice righteousness?

Will you answer or will you find a reason to refuse or give a non-answer such as, "that's personal, it's between me and my God" or "I live by faith according to the Word."

This is your opportunity to put your money where your mouth is and prove what you have been claiming all along on this forum.

How do you answer Solo?

R7-12

You would be wise to understand the process of being born of God as Jesus taught in John 3 whereby those that are born of God, the Spirit will see and enter the Kingdom of God, while those who are only only born of the flesh, will not. Those born of God do not sin, but the flesh that they reside in sins.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:9-10

Once one is born again, he abides in Jesus Christ, and the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to the believer. Without this place of rest, a person would have no righteousness, as the righteousness of man is as filthy rags. Read Romans 4.

Paul is very succinct in his revelation of truth in Romans where he declares that in the flesh dwells no good thing, but those that are born of God have the New creature, the inward man which will live for eternity(Romans 7). When the body is changed at the return of Jesus Christ, it will join with the born of God portion of each believer, and will reign with Jesus for eternity. (1 Corinthians 15)

Believers now have a war going on within their members between the flesh and the spirit, and believers are exhorted to walk in the spirit so that they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul explains that those that are born again will gain access into the kingdom of God even if their flesh is destroyed by sin on this earth. All that one does in the flesh will be wood, hay, and stubble and burnt at the last; but all that one does in the spirit will remain as gold, silver, and precious stones for eternity. Read Romans 7 & 8.


Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Galatians 6:15

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:10-17

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

 

[gingercat]

Solo,

As usual, you have listed verses but you dont seem to understand what "born again" means.

Born again simply means people who decide to follow Jesus and change their lives according to Jesus' teachings. You make it sound so complicated. Thats what people do when they don't understand the true meaning of the Scriptures.

 

[Solo]

Solo,

As usual, you have listed verses but you dont seem to understand what "born again" means.

Born again simply means people who decide to follow Jesus and change their lives according to Jesus' teachings. You make it sound so complicated. Thats what people do when they don't understand the true meaning of the Scriptures.

It's only complicated to those who don't believe. Hopefully you can examine yourself to assure yourself that you have been born of the Spirit, and not just born of the flesh. I will pray for you.

 

[gingercat]

We have serious battles between Jesus and Satan in the forums. We better watch out not to be used by satan. You have been claiming all non-trinitaians are anti-Christ. I believe you are an anti-Christ. We have to wait and see who is a big liar.

Only God is the judge, solo.

 

[Solo]

We have serious battles between Jesus and Satan in the forums. We better watch out not to be used by satan. You have been claiming all non-trinitaians are anti-Christ. I believe you are an anti-Christ. We have to wait and see who is a big liar.

Only God is the judge, solo.

I don't have to wait and see who is a big liar. You have told on yourself. Follow my advise, dear ginger, and examine yourself as to whether you have been born of the Spirit, and not the flesh only.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

Perhaps you should write 'your own' Bible and alter the meanings of scripture in 'it' to suit 'yourself'. You continually offer much that is 'contrary' to scripture. Where you learned of this understanding is 'beyond me'. I'm quite sure that you will state that it's because I am 'lost' or 'not born again', or some other such nonsense, but I can say this: 'What you offer at times is totally different than what has been revealed to me. Not that it matters to you, but I'm quite sure that you offer confusing testimony to others as well.

We are told MUCH that contradicts what you offer as 'understanding'. Firstly, those that are 'born again' can and DO sin. What those that are born again have is the ability to 'be forgiven' their sins. You offer that they simply cannot sin in Spirit yet their flesh can. This is pretty 'deep', for Paul, Peter, heck, EVERYONE that has EVER existed on this planet save Christ Himself has sinned from the moment they were able to the day they died.

Those that are 'born again' have not become some 'mystical creation' that the 'rules do NOT apply to'. They are those that have simply accepted the offering and THAT'S it. You're indication is that we 'become' some mystical RCC entity that is unable to 'displease' the Father through their actions. This is certainly contrary to what was taught by ALL the apostles and it would certainly allow those that accepted such a 'doctrine' to 'sit back' and simply 'believe' that 'what they DO' doesn't really matter anymore.

 

[R7-12]

Solo,

You claim those who do not qualify to be God's servants according to your judgment don't know the truth and therefore cannot answer questions correctly.

I have asked you several very basic questions and each time you avoid answering directly, thus, you do not answer correctly.

One's true self is revealed by their words and conduct.

Would you like a second opportunity to answer what is a basic Bible question? It does not require many words – just the truth.

Here we go,

How do you practice righteousness according to the Bible?

R7-12

 

[Solo]

Solo,

You claim those who do not qualify to be God's servants according to your judgment don't know the truth and therefore cannot answer questions correctly.

I have asked you several very basic questions and each time you avoid answering directly, thus, you do not answer correctly.

One's true self is revealed by their words and conduct.

Would you like a second opportunity to answer what is a basic Bible question? It does not require many words – just the truth.

Here we go,

How do you practice righteousness according to the Bible?

R7-12

Read this again very carefully praying to the Spirit for wisdom and understanding (Remember, it is God's righteousness, not our righteousness):

You would be wise to understand the process of being born of God as Jesus taught in John 3 whereby those that are born of God, the Spirit will see and enter the Kingdom of God, while those who are only only born of the flesh, will not. Those born of God do not sin, but the flesh that they reside in sins.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:9-10

Once one is born again, he abides in Jesus Christ, and the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to the believer. Without this place of rest, a person would have no righteousness, as the righteousness of man is as filthy rags. Read Romans 4.

Paul is very succinct in his revelation of truth in Romans where he declares that in the flesh dwells no good thing, but those that are born of God have the New creature, the inward man which will live for eternity(Romans 7). When the body is changed at the return of Jesus Christ, it will join with the born of God portion of each believer, and will reign with Jesus for eternity. (1 Corinthians 15)

Believers now have a war going on within their members between the flesh and the spirit, and believers are exhorted to walk in the spirit so that they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul explains that those that are born again will gain access into the kingdom of God even if their flesh is destroyed by sin on this earth. All that one does in the flesh will be wood, hay, and stubble and burnt at the last; but all that one does in the spirit will remain as gold, silver, and precious stones for eternity. Read Romans 7 & 8.


Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Galatians 6:15

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:10-17

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

 

[Solo]

Solo,

Perhaps you should write 'your own' Bible and alter the meanings of scripture in 'it' to suit 'yourself'. You continually offer much that is 'contrary' to scripture. Where you learned of this understanding is 'beyond me'. I'm quite sure that you will state that it's because I am 'lost' or 'not born again', or some other such nonsense, but I can say this: 'What you offer at times is totally different than what has been revealed to me. Not that it matters to you, but I'm quite sure that you offer confusing testimony to others as well.

We are told MUCH that contradicts what you offer as 'understanding'. Firstly, those that are 'born again' can and DO sin. What those that are born again have is the ability to 'be forgiven' their sins. You offer that they simply cannot sin in Spirit yet their flesh can. This is pretty 'deep', for Paul, Peter, heck, EVERYONE that has EVER existed on this planet save Christ Himself has sinned from the moment they were able to the day they died.

Those that are 'born again' have not become some 'mystical creation' that the 'rules do NOT apply to'. They are those that have simply accepted the offering and THAT'S it. You're indication is that we 'become' some mystical RCC entity that is unable to 'displease' the Father through their actions. This is certainly contrary to what was taught by ALL the apostles and it would certainly allow those that accepted such a 'doctrine' to 'sit back' and simply 'believe' that 'what they DO' doesn't really matter anymore.

Your lacking in the arena of spiritual maturity is not due to your striving to be right, but in your striving to be right apart from the whole counsel of God. Read the scripture that I referenced in the post that you failed to perceive truth, and pray for the guidence of the Spirit for truth, not your private interpretation prevailing during this discourse. Thanks.