In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[GodsGrace]

No, my pastor has been reformed for close to two decades .
My elders even longer .one such elder studied under r.c sproul .

The church founder being reformed close to 40 years and I met him long before I thought of attending my current church and he remembers my old pastor and the church .he spoke and led revivals at that ,it was a very free will church . He then sounded very charismatic but he never was .he just is a team builder and focused on the basics and wants souls to be won .he does without compromising his reformed views.

He is why we have a Spanish church that is charismatic and is joined at the hip .he told the pastors husband you arent leaving .the presbytery has budgeted for you .he ran out to meet the man and ask him who he was and wanted him to know despite our differences he was welcome .

Your pastor is just a great person Jethro.
But I'm stating what Calvinism teaches.
You can take it or leave it.

 

[jasonc]

Your pastor is just a great person Jethro.
But I'm stating what Calvinism teaches.
You can take it or leave it.

That isn't true .look

The founder started pca .that's younger the the oldest reformed Presbyterian church and broke away .

My arp church is tied to a pre revolutionary built church that switched from the pca and to the arp .the arp started on Scotland and it's still there and moved to the colonies .

The wcf itself doesn't say that and doesn't mention it as you say .
We use the oldest one in kjv English .the p soup split of Presbyterian is over minor differences of the wcf.its why I asked which one a few pages ago.

We even used the long and short catheschizm.

Saying what you said is akin to saying because one is a freewiller ,and they exist ,that one can earn your salvation by works and keep it .

It's a. Extreme . I do ask my pastor .he has even read your posts!

 

[Christ_empowered]

Jumping in here…

Not Calvinist but I do think scripture indicates foreknowledge. So…

Everyone is commanded to repent and be forgiven. Only the elect are provided the grace to do so. Hell is the default destination of mankind. God’s peculiar people are the exception to the rule.

One thing I still appreciate about Calvinism..,

It isn’t about making a decision for Christ and then rededicating again and again…

Which honestly may be a valid interpretation of scripture. Or not. My problem is that at the extreme that sort of faith seems to focus very much on the believer and his will power.

 

[journeyman]

Substitutionary Atonement, commonly known as The Theory of Penal Substitution did indeed come about after the reformation.

Good catch !

Ok. I really don't know much about the history of where heretical doctrines originated, but I do know God doesn't approve of punishing an innocent man for what a guilty man did.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Not like I'm going to spend any time trying to explain to you what it is....

*Thank you, thank you, my subliminal prayer has been answered*

Aside: I don't trust you to be truthful given your past fallacious posts regarding Sproul, Piper and MacArthur that I irrefutably showed to be false and I suspect said posts were of suspicious motivation as I don't think you to be an unintelligent woman, so don't continue to bother me. Thank you
Aside2: Someone turned off the ignore button I used on you

 

[GodsGrace]

What, in your opinion, is the difference between the sin nature and being imputed with Adam's sin?

It's not my opinion.
The sin nature is the nature we're born with that tends toward sin.
This is the nature we have because there is none righteous, not even one. Romans 3:10
We are not born in a saved state and must become saved at some point.

Being imputed with sin means that each and every one of us IS RESPONSIBLE for Adam's sin.
God holds us as responsible as Adam was in eating the fruit.
This is incorrect. The bible teaches us that we are each responsible for our own sins, we are not responsible for our father's sins or anybody else - only our own.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
This is why a baby cannot go to hell as Calvinists believe.
The baby has not committed any personal sin.
He only has the sin nature.

Romans 8:5 NIV
Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things,
This would be everyone, before salvation.

Adam (and Eve) sinned and disobeyed God's command not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why did they disobey God? Because they were created with the sin nature, which has been inherited by all their descendants, i.e., all people (with one obvious exception!). Sin is imputed to all humans by Adam, righteousness is imputed to all believers by Jesus Christ. I'm not concerned with what "mainline churches" believe, only what the Bible says.

Adam and Eve were not created with the sin nature.
This would make God the creator of evil.
God cannot create evil because there is no darkness in Him.
1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Also, after God created everything in Genesis 1 and 2, He said IT WAS GOOD.
The sin nature is not good.
Genesis 1:31
God saw all He had created, and behold it was good.

Romans 5:13-15, "for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed. But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if the many died through the transgression of the one man, how much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ multiply to the many!"

This is a different topic and won't get into it unless you really want to discuss it.

Again, sin is imputed to all humans by Adam, righteousness is imputed to all believers by Jesus Christ.

Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. Correct.
Adam's sin IS NOT imputed to us.
He cause the fall, but we are not PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for it.

Secondly, all children sin. With one obvious exception, there hasn't been a single child who hasn't told a lie, been disobedient to parents and/or teachers, etc. Every child has sinned and every child has been punished by their parents. Why? Because they have inherited the sin nature from Adam. If any person has inherited Adam's sin nature then they have no need of a Savior. Jesus died to pay the penalty for everyone's sins. There is no such thing as a totally innocent person.

Of course we all have inherited the sin nature.
Even babies.
BUT they're not responsible for any personal sin....
they've never sinned personally.
Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think you hold a very catholic understanding of sin and redemption.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok. I really don't know much about the history of where heretical doctrines originated, but I do know God doesn't approve of punishing an innocent man for what a guilty man did.

J,
I think in speaking about heretical doctrine you're referring to what I mentioned...
The Theory of Penal Substitution.

If so, this is not heretical.
There are about 7 or 8 theories of the atonement.
I'll link something good below if I could find it fast.

Each theory has something in it that is perfectly biblical.
But each one is slightly different.
It's up to YOU to decide which one you agree with the most.

The one I personally like the least is the Penal Substitution Theory.

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you hold a very catholic understanding of sin and redemption.

Are you talkin' ta me?

If so, what I posted is Protestant, which is what I am.
Catholicism doesn't call it sin nature.
But they believe the same as we do.

Your understanding is different?
What does sin nature mean?
Was Adam's sin IMPUTED to mankind?

 

[Christ_empowered]

All mankind is born doomed to hell without Jesus. It’s the fall affecting every generation if humanity.

Jesus saves. Free will? Predestination? Prevenient grace? My personal opinion is somewhere between the second two.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Ok. I really don't know much about the history of where heretical doctrines originated, but I do know God doesn't approve of punishing an innocent man for what a guilty man did.

Your statement accidentally true. Since there are no innocent men, it is not possible to punish an non-existent entity. I don't think what you literally meant though. If so, the rest of my post is irrelevant.

Premise 1: 1 Cor. 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Conclusion: God does punish one person for what another does

Premise 1: Exodus 34:7b visiting (avenging) the iniquity (sin, guilt) of the fathers upon the children and the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations [that is, calling the children to account for the sins of their fathers].” Also Leviticus 20:5; Numbers 14:18 ... I could go on
Conclusion: God does punish one person for what another does

Premise 1: That all of a nation suffer and are punished for the sins of their rulers and representatives is taught throughout the whole history of God's dealings with Israel. A
signal instance of this was the punishment of all Israel because of the sins of Eli and his
sons. Compare 1 Samuel 3:11-14 with 1 Samuel 4:10-22.
Conclusion: God does punish one person for what another does

Premise 1: Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— … For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners; (Romans 5:12-21)
Conclusion: God does punish one person for what another does

but I do know God doesn't approve of punishing an innocent man for what a guilty man did.

O.K., to be fair ... .please give scripture to validate this statement as I believe I've given plenty of scripture to invalidate it.

Aside: All these statement by non-reform people have one thing in common ....few if any references to scripture (God word) to back up what they are saying. Wonder why

 

[GodsGrace]

*Thank you, thank you, my subliminal prayer has been answered*

Aside: I don't trust you to be truthful given your past fallacious posts regarding Sproul, Piper and MacArthur that I irrefutably showed to be false and I suspect said posts were of suspicious motivation as I don't think you to be an unintelligent woman, so don't continue to bother me. Thank you
Aside2: Someone turned off the ignore button I used on you

You know Fast fredy0,
I'm really tired of your posts to me.
If you don't trust me just don't post to me even though I may reply to your posts now and then.

You've broken 4 TOS rules with the above post.
Here they are:
1.1
1.3
1.4
1.5

Very few rules are required for those that understand our goal and the aim of this forum.

Rules

1.1: Grant others the courtesy to be understood and acknowledge their views. As best as one is capable, speak truth in love.; ( Mathew 7:12, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

1.2: Always tag a member that you mention in any thread.; (@ plus name)

1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.

1.4: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16)

1.5: No trolling. No flaming or remarks used to intentionally upset members. Intentional disruption of this nature may result in immediate termination of your membership.


Please read the Terms of Service and adhere to the rules of this forum.
Further replies from you such as the above will be reported from now on.

We aim to have a family-type forum where we can discuss biblical matters with love and respect.
Please make an effort to comply. Do not respond to my posts from now on if you cannot in the manner described -
Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

All mankind is born doomed to hell without Jesus. It’s the fall affecting every generation if humanity.

Jesus saves. Free will? Predestination? Prevenient grace? My personal opinion is somewhere between the second two.

But I'm not discussing that.

Could you just answer my two questions?

This is common Christianity 101.
Let's see if we could understand each other.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Romans 5:12

 

[Fastfredy0]

You know Fast fredy0,
I'm really tired of your posts to me.

Then stop posting to me. Deal? Like, you are trolling me as you initi

Regarding the forum's rules.
I think it is you that have broken the rules.

Accusing me of the sin of Pride (see below)

This is rather prideful of you,,,as usual.

Sarcasm (see below)

Perhaps YOU need to drink the water?

Unfounded accusations (see below) and untrue. Most protestant denomination have a majority of their doctrine to be correct in my opinion.

Why do you assume that YOU are correct and every other Christian denomination is wrong?

Aside ... I wish I could report you for these violations, but that option is blocked. Guess you can get away with it.

 

[GodsGrace]

*Thank you, thank you, my subliminal prayer has been answered*

Aside: I don't trust you to be truthful given your past fallacious posts regarding Sproul, Piper and MacArthur that I irrefutably showed to be false and I suspect said posts were of suspicious motivation as I don't think you to be an unintelligent woman, so don't continue to bother me. Thank you
Aside2: Someone turned off the ignore button I used on you

You don't have to trust me F, please use your ignore button if you must.

I made the statement that Piper and MaCarthur (and Sproul too, but I'm not spending my time linking something you then will state is not calvinism -- funny stuff), all say that God created evil.

Some members here stated that I was wrong and that this is not taught in Calvinism.

Apparently, I know more about Calvinism than any of the members that claim to be Calvinist.

So, I'll post the links AGAIN - It's YouTube.
Piper stating that God created evil
MaCarthur stating that God created evil.
And ditto for Sproul - who had a difficult time even accepting Calvinism but he already had a mentor so, too late for him. You could not believe this either. You have the free will to accept or deny anything I say sans calling me dishonest.

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 5:12

CE
Romans 5:12 states that all men will die due to the fall.
Adam and Eve were immortal.

It states that all men sin.
Of course.
We all know we sin.

What I'm saying and which you should do a little study on since I don't expect anyone to believe me,
is this: We are NOT IMPUTED with Adam's sin.

Can you know the difference between being imputed with Adam's sin and
not being imputed with Adam's sin?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Ok

So we don’t have a sin nature…we’re fallible creatures who sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

Then stop posting to me. Deal? Like, you are trolling me as you initi

Regarding the forum's rules.
I think it is you that have broken the rules.

Accusing me of the sin of Pride (see below)


Sarcasm (see below)


Unfounded accusations (see below) and untrue. Most protestant denomination have a majority of their doctrine to be correct in my opinion.


Aside ... I wish I could report you for these violations, but that option is blocked. Guess you can get away with it.

No deal.
I have the right to reply to any of your posts.
It's rather prideful to constantly say that someone is wrong. This is against the TOS.
It's rather rude to speak to another member regarding members on this thread that do not agree with you without tagging them in. This is also a violation.

And it's not sarcasm.
It's true.
You said the horse could be brought to the water but not made to drink it...in reference to me and others that agree with me.
I said PERHAPS IT'S YOU WHO NEEDS TO DO SOME DRINKING?
That is not sarcasm F...it should make you consider what you state on these threads.

Report what you like.
A moderator will be reading this anyway.

If you wish to continue this conversation, please do it by PM
or report it on Talk with the Staff.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To wordy... simply put free will is the ability for man to believe salvificly

You're the one being obtuse.

Do you mean unable to believe unto salvation with or without God's enablement?

I qualified my answer. You haven't as far as I know.