GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Oh my goodness.Ok
So we don’t have a sin nature…we’re fallible creatures who sin?
We HAVE a sin nature.
What I'm saying is that we're not imputed with Adam's sin.
Google it.
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In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?
- Thread starter Jethro Bodine
- Start date
We HAVE a sin nature.
What I'm saying is that we're not imputed with Adam's sin.
Google it.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I can't. You're protected from being ignored.
You can't create evil.... but I won't bother you with reasoning.
You were wrong about all three gentlemen. I printed sources and quotes to prove you wrong and then you try to cover your tracks by pointing to a book in Sproul's case and long youtube videos and never says where in these sources are statements to back you are. At best you misinterpret what they are saying .... I give you credit for not purposely stating a falsehood, but the result is the same.
Post the exact words and where (the time) in the video where these men say "God is the author of Evil". I am suspicious all you will do is point to some statement where a guy says God control someone committing an evil act and therefore they believe GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL. I showed with URLs that Piper and MacArthur said GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL. I suspect you will not give specifics where to find your slurs (slur IMO) to cover your tracks, not state exactly where they said GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL.
Yeah, I was right ... I see now. A link to a clip and no specifics. You didn't give a quote or where to find it. Like I can say you said GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL (not that you did) and point anyone to look at her forum posts as proof. Like, one is looking for a needle in a hay stack and I suspect there is no needle.
Aside: You know, I think you are a fine, Christian woman and you know your theology and are of above average intelligence ... but, you've got a Reformed vendetta or something. You make too many false statements in that regard IMO. Your welcome to do it I suppose, just leave me alone as I don't wish to take part in discussions with you.
Double predestined.
Look I had an ordained man rag me for months .he wasn't one to debate but I asked him on Calvin .he said no to that
The wcf was written after Calvin deaths but a few centuries .
And no Calvin also didn't believe in limited atonement .
The five points came around the time of synod of dort.the wcf and the London Baptist confession are a finalized statement of confession in response to several problems ,one being the papists and also the Anglicans needed a unifying document .
Westminster is the Scottish version that based upon that and the church of Scotland is the originator of that .irc .
The London confession is older then the wcf .
Rc.sproul started ligioniers.
Well, I guess one or both of us have communication issues. (Be that as it may)
Again, using your definition of Free will which is:
... aside.. I hate double negatives.... which I interpret to mean "freedom (ability) to believe salvicficly"
...again... I say it is an obtuse definition as you don't state what man is FREE FROM. Is man free from satan influence, God's influence, his parents influence. Like, the don't use the term FREE in FREE WILL for nothing.
Gee, I could agree to your statement given its broad definition. I agree that everyone can decide from their wills to believe or not believe. Now, when one narrows down this obtuse definition one asks next, what determines a man's will. We know something is influencing man otherwise half the people would believe and half wouldn't. But only a small number believe. Something or someone is influencing they desire/will. The bible says it's Satan (2 Corinthians 2:4 ) and we can do nothing about it unless God intervenes (John 1:12-13)
Anyways, your definition is too obtuse for me (or I am not smart enough to understand it) ... so I won't bother going further unless you can show me verses saying we have FREE WILL (not that there are any save FREE WILL offering).
Have a good evening.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Here's how to ignore me.
Just don't read my posts.
Easy.
No technology necessary.
HOW am I misinterpreting what they're saying?
They're saying it on YouTube!
Do you think it's puppets of your theologians?
No...it's them.
Stating EXACTLY what I said in my posts.
I'm really tired of being told that I don't know calvinism too.
Maybe it's YOU that doesn't understand it?
Now, you could take that as sarcasm, or you could take it as an honest attempt to make you think.
You know, systematic theology is not the best way to learn of our Christianity.
It's not such a good idea to learn our faith in bits and pieces, but by reading the entire NT as one unit.
That's the only way to come to an understanding.
A study of free will or predestination or the sovereignty of God will not give you a correct understanding of what Jesus wanted to convey.
Oh please.
Do I seem dumb to you?
I state something and post a video with the person saying what I claimed he said and you want me to watch the video AGAIN so I could save you time by giving you the time point? You're funny F. If you're interested, watch the whole video...they're very alarming actually.
To say that God created evil is blasphemous.
It's calling good evil.
It's not a needle in a haystack.
Put the speed to 2X and watch it.
The point is you don't care to watch it.
You'd rather continue believing that I'm wrong and your own theologians don't think God created evil.
I don't like the reformed faith. I've never made a secret of this.
I don't hate any person of the reformed faith - but they do dislike me and I don't know why.
Maybe I make them uncomfortable.
My statements are backed up by either the institutes or the WCF.
I also post for those reading along.
You don't have to read my posts if you don't care to.
The following is from the WCF 3.1 and WCF 5.2
WCF 3.1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17); yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin (James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11;
Acts 2:23; 4:27-28).
WCF 5.2 Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly (Acts 2:23), yet by the same providence he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently (Gen 8:22; Exod 21:13 with Deut 19:5; 1 Kings 22:28, 34; Isa 10:6-7; Jer 31:35).
Here is what one of your theologians says about the above:
Incredible that God causes ALL to happen, including evil, but He is not responsible for causing evil.
That God either directly or remotely excites bad men as well as good ones to action cannot be denied by any but Atheists, or by those who carry their notions of free-will and human independency so high as to exclude the Deity from all actual operation in and among His creatures, which is little short of Atheism.
Every work performed, whether good or evil, is done in strength and by the power derived immediately from God Himself, “in whom all men live, move, and have their being” (Acts 17:28). As, at first, without Him was not anything made which was made, so, now, without Him is not anything done which is done. We have no power or faculty, whether corporal or intellectual, but what we received from God, subsists by Him, and is exercised in subserviency to His will and appointment.
It is He who created, preserves, actuates and directs all things. But it by no means follows, from these premises, that God is therefore the cause of sin, for sin is nothing but άνομία, illegality, want of conformity to the Divine law (1 John 3:4), a mere privation of rectitude; consequently, being itself a thing purely negative, it can have no positive or efficient cause, but only a negative and deficient one, as several learned men have observed.
Every action, as such, is undoubtedly good, it being an actual exertion of those operative powers given us by God for that very end; God therefore may be the Author of all actions (as He undoubtedly is), and yet not be the Author of evil. An action is constituted evil three ways—by proceeding from a wrong principle, by being directed to a wrong end, and by being done in a wrong manner.
Now, though God, as we have said, is the efficient cause of our actions as actions, yet, if these actions commence sinful, that sinfulness arises from ourselves. Suppose a boy, who knows not how to write, has his hand guided by his master and nevertheless makes false letters, quite unlike the copy set him, though his preceptor, who guides his hand, is the cause of his writing at all, yet his own ignorance and unskillfulness are the cause of his writing so badly. Just so, God is the supreme Author of our action, abstractedly taken, but our own vitiosity is the cause of our acting amiss.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I happen to know all this Jason.
I don't understand what I stated that was incorrect.
Could you give me the opportunity to post again?
You can't just tell me I'm wrong about something and then let it go.
I'd also like to say that I do not misrepresent the reformed faith.
It's not my fault if people listen to their pastor instead of researching what the reformed faith's doctrines are.
It's like if I wanted to become Catholic without reading the CCC first.
It's easy to read Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
or the Westminster Confession of Faith or the London CF or the Baptist CF.
However, one of the above should be read before deciding that calvinism is a good teaching both of God and His salvation economy.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Point is the knowledge they did have, they perverted, so they already knew.
They're about what David was born in, not what David himself was in Gods' eyes. Sin is the result of the knowledge of good and evil, not heredity.
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. Jb.14:4
Job isn't saying he was born as sin, or that he had no idea how to approach God. He's simply acknowledging he needs Gods' forgiveness.
At the end, Job is ashamed of questioning "why bad things happen to good people."
I'm 99% sure it's because he saw the result of what happenedto our Savior.
Behold, I was shapenin iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psa.51:5
Psa.51:1-4, David is confessing his own sin. He learned sinful things and that shaped him.
Of course, David learned sin from the sin his mom conceived him in.
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Psa.58:3
Aside from speech being learned, our Lord said,
whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Mk.9:42
We know how Christs' Kingdom is filled with those who turn and become like children, so the onus is on the one who knew better, not the kid.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn.3:6
Jesus told Nicodemus, "Unless a man is born again", because Nicodemus was a sinner. And nowhere is our King telling him that he can't be.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom.3:23
He doesn't mean every human on earth. Simply, not only Jews who know the law, but gentiles by conscience.
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise:for we have before proved (see Rom.2) both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; Rom.3:9
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom.5:12
Right. Death didn't pass upon all men for that all were born.
My source of truth was a Jewish guy who believed Jesus is the Messiah and he knew the OT and NT better than any commentary I ever read. That's the funny thing. He was a nobody "credential wise."
I do, unless you respond to mine. Please don't.
You don't give a quote or a location (time) to find it. That is deceptive or lazy.
Well, if you think I don't understand it then that is evidence that you don't. Think on it.
Example: You infer Reformed of believing GOD is the Author of Sin when their confession specifically say otherwise.
That is ridiculous.
Your saying: Organizing God's word is not the best way to understand God....it's much better to be unorganized.
Ridiculous. You're saying it is better to find out about the various aspects of God by reading bits and pieces as you randomly come across them while reading the bible. Ludicrous idea.
You don't understand metaphysically what evil is, so there is not sense responding. You lack the necessary background knowledge. (aside: it is impossible to create evil.... but I can tell you don't know why... so I will stop there).
Aside: I am glad I have nothing to do tonight and it's fun thinking about the various reasons and scripture that show you don't know what you are talking about.
You're lazy or know it's not there or you have misunderstood what they said. I was not lazy. I took to time to give URLs and direct quotes to prove your statement was a fabrication (hopefully not purposely). I am not wasting my time again looking for something that is not there and then have you pretend it's there. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Nice Try. Got me once. (LOL at your solution to play it on 2X)
Because you fabricate falsehoods as I proved by giving URL's and quotes.
The rest is theology and I don't trust you to discuss theology honestly as I showed by your false statements about Piper, MacArthur and Sproul.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Hello wondering.J,
I think in speaking about heretical doctrine you're referring to what I mentioned...
The Theory of Penal Substitution.
If so, this is not heretical.
There are about 7 or 8 theories of the atonement.
I'll link something good below if I could find it fast.
Each theory has something in it that is perfectly biblical.
But each one is slightly different.
It's up to YOU to decide which one you agree with the most.
The one I personally like the least is the Penal Substitution Theory.
7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison
7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrisonwww.sdmorrison.org
I was referring to the heresy that Gods' wrath is inflicted on any individual or group, because of the sin of another individual or group.
I listen to oh say my pastor and eldetrs since I run the audio and visual on the church on a rotation of two Sundays or more and will anticipate the mike switches
I will watch who walks up to the podium and mute all others and adjust volume and turn the Bible .
Look once again. You don't know the reformed at all.
We use the wcf and London because they not Calvin were created because events in England since this is beyond you .
It simply is.i asked you to produce which wcf said God created evil ..you can't and I added where is double predestiin in the wcf
.
It's not.i used the one from 1647 and that one said nope .
Click on that confession of faith ,look for chapter 3 and see if it says double predestined.it doesn't .
Nor will ever say God created evil .look I actually here this routinely .I know what my church says and other reformed persons we vet that come here to speak or write a book we might use for a commentary
So I ask .where is in the arp ,pca,eco and others that God created evil and made Satan evil ?
Where is it that God double predestined a soul to be saved and another to be lost ?
Foreordained isn't predestination that is simply seeing it and allowing it .
Look I dont even agree with limited atonement but I won't allow such ignorance .
Family ?
You call my elders hetericts .
They don't see me that way and they know where I stand .
I don't go undermine them .I may ask them on it or state a different view you can disagree with the wcf on some points.my pastor did on three things ,baby baptism is one .
All reformed I met base their doctrinal statements on the wcf not on Calvin though they will quote him and the elders know his works and Luther .
But neither are used for the catescism or confessions of faith .
Jethro Bodine
Member
No, babies don't literally speak lies from birth. You know it, I know it. It's obvious that he is not speaking literally, but figuratively. He's speaking figuratively of the depth of wickedness in a person. So deep, so prevalent, so all encompassing so as to be utterly corrupt from birth. It's like when the Pharisees derided the man in John 9:34 whose eyes were opened by Jesus: "34They replied, “You were born in utter sin, and you are instructing us?” The NIV says, "steeped in sin", like a tea bag soaking in water. So corrupt, so wicked, so evil so as to have been soaking in that wickedness from birth. It's the use of figurative language to get the point across of how deeply wicked a person is. It's not literal. It HAS to be figurative because babies don't speak lies from birth. They literally don't. Don't try to convince us they do.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Mine is simple.
Compare scripture with scripture and always consider the whole context of scripture.
Where God intends the Bible to be interpreted and understood, the Bible interprets itself.
Deuteronomy 29:29
29The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why are you reducing 'believing' to that of mere probability?
We're talking about living, conscious human beings here, not random flips of a coin. Each human having within them the potential to love righteousness, or not to love righteousness when tilled, planted with the word of God, and watered by God.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
You and Ben Shapiro are sounding very not reformed here, lol.
You apparently forgot that Calvinism says God decides for you before creation if you will believe, or not believe. Calvinism says if you're looking for excuses to not believe it's because God ordained that for you. You did not decide to do that, because you were not predestined before creation to be elected/chosen.
I say a person won't believe because they in and of themselves as a created conscious spiritual being won't love righteousness when given the chance to do so. While others will.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I actually kind of agree with this.
In Calvinism, by virtue of doing nothing God in effect purposely condemns those he has decided he will not elect. Just as he purposely decides to elect a person.
Jethro Bodine
Member
So many of us start out this way in Christianity. We are convinced that everything that we experience in our walk with God after getting saved is the one and only true way. I have the T-shirt on that, too. But I have concluded that to think that is a matter of immaturity.
IMO, there is no one denomination that has the complete truth of Christianity. That's why I am truly non-denominational. I embrace various things from all denominations that I have up to this point concluded are truth. And those conclusions are not permanent and unchangeable. I'm open to further enlightenment. It's terribly arrogant to think one has been exposed to all the enlightenment possible. The careful person is always cognizant that there may be something out there that they did not think of or consider.