In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Jethro Bodine]

But, you can believe what you will -
Or can you?

Good point.

I have noticed that you sometimes have to remind Calvinists to stay within the boundaries of their theology.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Aside: There is nothing here saying they could have knowledge needed to be 'saved'. (Faith coming by hearing...yahda, yahda)

That is found in Romans 2:14-16.

Remember...consider the WHOLE counsel of scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Great post Jethro.
I'll tell you one thing that is not really correct.
I highlighted it above...

Calvinism teaches that NO MAN HAS FREE WILL.

Yeah, I get what you're saying.
The way I understand it from what Calvinists say is God assigns the elect he has chosen the will that they will exercise freely in order to be saved. It's similar to the old line "if I want you to have an opinion I'll give it to you". God basically saying, "if I want you to have the free will to believe and be saved, I'll give it to you."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please note that it states that God predestined EVERYTHING that will come to pass, but He is not responsible for evil...interesting. And in the same way, God predestines those who are reprobate, BUT THEY are still responsible for being that way.

And, thus, the reason for this thread, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's not double .double is God electing and actively making one ( empower) to repent and then with the opposite actively decieving the other by letting sin and bringing sin to him .

But what we're saying is by God not doing anything he is in effect actively, or consciously, condemning those he does not choose. But if I understand fundamental Calvinism properly, all men start out in the same sinful state together, and so he doesn't actually 'do' anything to condemn the non-elect. He just leaves them in the lost state they and all men, even the elect, were born into.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not Calvinist but I do think scripture indicates foreknowledge. So…

Everyone is commanded to repent and be forgiven. Only the elect are provided the grace to do so. Hell is the default destination of mankind.

These are by themselves Biblical facts. It's the details that Calvinism adds to them that sets them apart as being Reformed doctrines.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Regarding predestination, what can be said about Paul's writing this?

"But who indeed are you, a human, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction," Romans 9:20-22

I am not a Calvinist, as I am not familiar with his doctrine, but this seems quite straight-forward regarding predestination.

Ah, good. Found it.
It's important that we address this.

If you read Jeremiah 18:1-10 you'll see that this isn't a matter of God sovereignly determining ahead of time in eterity past that he's going to make some lumps of clay into pots designed and destined for destruction, and sovereignly determining ahead of time that he's going to make other lumps of clay into pots designed and destined for glory.

You can see in that passage that God decides what he'll do with the pots he's working on. Pots that become marred and don't conform to his desires as he's working them on the wheel he makes into what he wants to make them. It's at his discretion as the potter, not the clay, as to what he does with it. For example, God, at his discretion, when He saw that Pharaoh was a marred work of clay in his hands, patiently crafted him anyway, and the way he wanted to, not the way Pharaoh wanted. In his case, he fashioned him into a pot destined for destruction, rather than a pot destined for glory.

So the passage you quote above has nothing to do with God thinking in his mind in eternity past what pots he'll purposely make destined for destruction, and what pots he'll purposely make destined for glory. It has everything to do with God deciding what He will do with the clay he is working on his wheel according to how it responds to his craftsmanship.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Your statement accidentally true. Since there are no innocent men, it is not possible to punish an non-existent entity. I don't think what you literally meant though. If so, the rest of my post is irrelevant.

What I was referring to is the law God instituted through Moses, where for instance, someone committed murder, or theft, etc, and any person who didn't commit the crime could be held responsible for it. God wanted government to be just in jurisprudence, like he is.

Premise 1: 1 Cor. 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Conclusion: God does punish one person for what another does

Paul isn't defining "in Adam" as "being a human being." He means following Adam, the same way "being in Christ" is defined as "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Premise 1: Exodus 34:7b visiting (avenging) the iniquity (sin, guilt) of the fathers upon the children and the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations [that is, calling the children to account for the sins of their fathers].” Also Leviticus 20:5; Numbers 14:18 ... I could go on
Conclusion: God does punish one person for what another does

No my friend. Moses means children who follow in the ways of their hateful parents.

he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. Eze.18:17

Moses agrees with all the prophets,
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to deathfor his own sin. Exo.24:16

Premise 1: That all of a nation suffer and are punished for the sins of their rulers and representatives is taught throughout the whole history of God's dealings with Israel. A
signal instance of this was the punishment of all Israel because of the sins of Eli and his
sons. Compare 1 Samuel 3:11-14 with 1 Samuel 4:10-22.
Conclusion: God does punish one person for what another does

In the passages you've cited, Elis' "house" (his sons Hophni and Phinehas) would be judged for their own sins (because he didn't restrain their bad conduct (1Sam.3:13).
Secondly, the Israelites were beaten because they didn't care if two evil men were bearing the testimony of God (1Sam.4:4-5).

Premise 1: Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— … For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners; (Romans 5:12-21)
Conclusion: God does punish one person for what another does

Paul isn't saying, "Every human has Adams' sin transferred to him and every human has Christs righteousness transferred to him.

O.K., to be fair ... .please give scripture to validate this statement as I believe I've given plenty of scripture to invalidate it.

There are six things the LORD hates
no, seven things he detests: year haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that kill the innocent, a heart that plots evil, feet that race to do wrong, a false witness who pours out lies, a person who sows discord in a family. Pro.6:16-19

Aside: All these statement by non-reform people have one thing in common ....few if any references to scripture (God word) to back up what they are saying. Wonder why

People rarely discuss any passage I cite. They simply cite a verses that seem contrary. I address any verse you cite and show how they fit perfectly with all scripture.

Did you let the contempt God has for the sins described in Pro.6:16-19, sink in?

Everyone of those evils were committed against Jesus.

So when you're reading a chapter like Isaiah 53, it becomes clearer that God is satisfied by his Sons' response to adversity, not the adversity itself.

God isn't satisfied that Jesus was abused. He's pleased that his Son showed his longsuffering toward people who desreved death.

It may seem like the righteous are punished just like the wicked,

The wise have eyes in their heads, while the fool walks in the darkness; but I came to realize that the same fate overtakes them both. Then I said to myself, “The fate of the fool will overtake me also. What then do I gain by being wise?” I said to myself, “This too is meaningless.” Ecc.2:14-15

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Regarding predestination, what can be said about Paul's writing this?

"But who indeed are you, a human, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction," Romans 9:20-22

Predestination is not God determining ahead of time what kind of pot your clay will be fashioned into. What has been predestined before creation is God's plan, not who will get to participate in it. And that plan is that all who believe will be conformed to the image of Christ, holy and blameless, adopted sons of God:

29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son
Romans 8:29

4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I say it is an obtuse definition as you don't state what man is FREE FROM.

Read it again. I DID say what man is FREE FROM...

Free will means freedom from the inablilty of natural man to not be able to believe that which he can not see (Hebrews 11:1).

Yes, of course, the "not" I've struck out in my quote above doesn't belong there, but I really think you're smart enough to know what I was saying despite the double negative.

When God testifies about himself through nature, through conscience, or through the written or spoken words of scripture the freedom to either accept or reject that testimony is given with that testimony. Some choose to believe that testimony, while others choose not to believe it:

Anyways, your definition is too obtuse for me (or I am not smart enough to understand it) ... so I won't bother going further unless you can show me verses saying we have FREE WILL

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
Hebrews 3:12

"See to it" (or "Beware") is an appeal to the freedom of the person themselves to not have a wicked heart of unbelief. Calvinism says God decides for you if you'll have a wicked heart of unbelief, or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello wondering.
I was referring to the heresy that Gods' wrath is inflicted on any individual or group, because of the sin of another individual or group.

OK.
Yes, of course I agree with you.
We are held responsible only for our own sins.

 

[hawkman]

Sin is inherited from Adam. "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned" Romans 5:12 Personally, I don't think it's through genetics, but through our spirit.

So I asked a question , here it is .

Where did Adam's spirit come from ? Where did Mary's spirit come from ? Where did your spirit come from ?

The answer for all of them is from God . Does anyone see it any other way ?

a) I don't know. b) I don't know. c) From God.

We are all born with Adam's sin nature. It is not attached, it is a part of us, like our mind.

I see you are still looking for where the sin is on or in the new born baby .

Do you believe in babies sinning ?

 

[GodsGrace]

I actually kind of agree with this.

In Calvinism, by virtue of doing nothing God in effect purposely condemns those he has decided he will not elect. Just as he purposely decides to elect a person.

Exactly.
Single predestinationd is referred to as
Positive-negative.
The positive would be God picking who will be saved, and negatively just passing over the others so they end up damned.

Double predestination is known as
Positive-positive.
The positive is God picking who will be saved.
And also picking who will be damned.

Now, let's just think for 15 seconds.
What's the difference?
The second group ends up in hell because of a decision made by God and by action taken by Him, or not taken. It all ends up being double predestination.

And let's not forget that God based His action of choice on nothing that we either did or did not do.

 

[GodsGrace]

So many of us start out this way in Christianity. We are convinced that everything that we experience in our walk with God after getting saved is the one and only true way. I have the T-shirt on that, too. But I have concluded that to think that is a matter of immaturity.

IMO, there is no one denomination that has the complete truth of Christianity. That's why I am truly non-denominational. I embrace various things from all denominations that I have up to this point concluded are truth. And those conclusions are not permanent and unchangeable. I'm open to further enlightenment. It's terribly arrogant to think one has been exposed to all the enlightenment possible. The careful person is always cognizant that there may be something out there that they did not think of or consider.

I agree. I've learned quite a few things on this forum, and some from you.

The only problem is that calvinists don't start out the way you described, they end up like that.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I thought Calvinism was true and amazing…

Until I got truly saved and real life…my life in Christ… happened. Now?

Ugh Calvinism sells books and seminars and a lifestyle within Christianity. True of any big idea from yet another very important man…

Doesn’t save anyone. Jesus does.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good point.

I have noticed that you sometimes have to remind Calvinists to stay within the boundaries of their theology.

Right!

A calvinist believes that God, being sovereign, predestined everything that happens.

Then one might post something nasty to another member.

Does he realize that's it's his belief that GOD
Predestined him to do this?

However, somehow, God does not predestine evil.
The WCF says so, so it must be true.

Even though it makes no logical sense.
Then I hear that God's ways are not our ways.
what a mess!

 

[Robert Pate]

Right!

A calvinist believes that God, being sovereign, predestined everything that happens.

Then one might post something nasty to another member.

Does he realize that's it's his belief that GOD
Predestined him to do this?

However, somehow, God does not predestine evil.
The WCF says so, so it must be true.

Even though it makes no logical sense.
Then I hear that God's ways are not our ways.
what a mess!

The purpose of religion is to cloud the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:3-7.

 

[jaybo]

The purpose of religion is to cloud the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:3-7.

Absurd! Here is the context of your chosen verses...

"Therefore, since it is by God’s mercy that we are engaged in this ministry, we do not lose heart. We have renounced the shameful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to falsify God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we commend ourselves to the conscience of everyone in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing clearly the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not proclaim ourselves; we proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’s sake. For it is the God who said, “Light will shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

But we have this treasure in clay jars, so that it may be made clear that this extraordinary power belongs to God and does not come from us. We are afflicted in every way but not crushed, perplexed but not driven to despair, persecuted but not forsaken, struck down but not destroyed, always carrying around in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be made visible in our bodies. For we who are living are always being handed over to death for Jesus’s sake, so that the life of Jesus may also be made visible in our mortal flesh. So death is at work in us but life in you." 2 Corinthians 4:1-12

The word "religion" does not appear anywhere in these verses.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And let's not forget that God based His action of choice on nothing that we either did or did not do.

And most disturbingly, God made the choice who will be elected and who will not apart from any consideration of what that person might actually want. I'm totally against any doctrine that suggests some people will remain damned and God will do nothing for them even though they would be saved if He did do something. That is totally against the character and plan and hope of God we see in scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree. I've learned quite a few things on this forum, and some from you.

2

Likewise, I have learned from and been inspired by you as well, just as God planned for the purpose of maintaining unity in his body. For as much as we Christians chaff against each other in our doctrinal disputes, what we think separates us, in actuality, unites us as we each "reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13). We all need each other, despite our different levels of faith and knowledge and maturity. God knows this. We haven't necessarily deviated from the Master's plan.
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