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    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

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Likewise, I have learned from and been inspired by you as well, just as God planned for the purpose of maintaining unity in his body. For as much as we Christians chaff against each other in our doctrinal disputes, what we think separates us, in actuality, unites us as we each "reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13). We all need each other, despite our different levels of faith and knowledge and maturity. God knows this. We haven't necessarily deviated from the Master's plan.
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Don't be so shocked!

This sounds nice and reassuring.
 
And most disturbingly, God made the choice who will be elected and who will not apart from any consideration of what that person might actually want. I'm totally against any doctrine that suggests some people will remain damned and God will do nothing for them even though they would be saved if He did do something. That is totally against the character and plan and hope of God we see in scripture.
Amen.
I also understand this and cannot be what Jesus wanted to be known about God.

IOW,,,I don't understand why He would teach and preach and even die, if everything is based on what GOD was going to decide anyway....
Why do we need to depend on Jesus if God is going to choose the saved?

No need for Jesus' death.
 
Amen.
I also understand this and cannot be what Jesus wanted to be known about God.

IOW,,,I don't understand why He would teach and preach and even die, if everything is based on what GOD was going to decide anyway....
Why do we need to depend on Jesus if God is going to choose the saved?

No need for Jesus' death.
God is just. He established that there must be a price for committed sins: sacrifice. In the Old Covenant, it was the repeated sacrifice of animals. In the New Covenant, it was the one sacrifice of His own Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus' sacrifice paid the required price for all sins.
 
God is just. He established that there must be a price for committed sins: sacrifice. In the Old Covenant, it was the repeated sacrifice of animals. In the New Covenant, it was the one sacrifice of His own Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus' sacrifice paid the required price for all sins.
Amen.
Agreed.
Adam caused the fall for all mankind.
Jesus died for all mankind.
Whether or not we want to take advantage of it is up to each individual.
 
You missed my question in post #240 . If you answer it maybe the confusion will begin to clear .


What I mean is the sin is not attached to us or inside us in anyway when we are born .

Do you believe the sin is attached to or inside us when we are born ?
Attached to or inside us? Like a parasite? It is a part of us: body, mind, soul, and spirit. We are born with all four.
 
Babies sin according to post you just commented on . But this is a good very question electedbyhim :) .

Do you believe these scriptures indicate babies sin ?
The scriptures in question do not statd that babies sin.

The NT states we are born in a fallen state.
It does not state we are born with sin.

A baby cannot fall short of the glory of God since they don't even know who God is in order to worship Him and ask forgiveness. God is just and does not attribute to anyone sins they personally did not commit, including babies.

Jesus said those of the Kingdom are like those children that were around Him. He said we cannot even enter heaven unless we're like them.
So apparently Jesus said babies can't sin.

We're told by John to ask forgiveness if we sin.
A baby can't even speak and a child doesn't even know what a sin is, so how do they ask forgiveness?

The Apostles preached to persons that could understand the bible,,,not to babies or young children.
 
The scriptures in question do not statd that babies sin.
I agree !
The NT states we are born in a fallen state.
We are born into a fallen world with sin and sinners all around and our ability to sin is an inevitable product of this .
It does not state we are born with sin.
Correct , there is no sin inside of us . How could it get inside us and who would put it there and is it even possible , I think not .
A baby cannot fall short of the glory of God since they don't even know who God is in order to worship Him and ask forgiveness. God is just and does not attribute to anyone sins they personally did not commit, including babies.

Jesus said those of the Kingdom are like those children that were around Him. He said we cannot even enter heaven unless we're like them.
So apparently Jesus said babies can't sin.

We're told by John to ask forgiveness if we sin.
A baby can't even speak and a child doesn't even know what a sin is, so how do they ask forgiveness?

The Apostles preached to persons that could understand the bible,,,not to babies or young children.
Yes , my thoughts too :) .
 
There is a common belief today that people are born “good” and most people remain basically good at heart their whole lives. According to this theory, the evil that some people exhibit is the result of environmental factors—people only turn “bad” when external forces beyond their control twist them away from their basic goodness. This is a false, unbiblical view of human nature.

The Bible teaches that none of us are good. We are all born sinners with a sinful, selfish nature inherited from Adam. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God, we will never see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

Psalm 14:2–3 counters the idea that anyone is “good”: “The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Add to this Jesus’ statement that “No one is good—except God alone” (Luke 18:19), and we see that we all stand guilty before God.

In the beginning, God created an absolutely perfect world. God called His creation “very good” in Genesis 1:31. The Garden of Eden was the perfect environment for the first humans, Adam and Eve. Even in that perfect environment, with all their needs met and living in a state of innocence, Adam chose to disobey God. Adam couldn’t blame environmental factors for his sinful choice; it was simply an act of his will to rebel.

When Adam disobeyed God, the first couple lost their innocence, they were ejected from the Garden, and, importantly, their basic nature was corrupted (Genesis 3:7–12). Sin and death became a part of creation. Later, when Adam had a son, the Bible describes the event this way: “He had a son in his own likeness, after his own image” (Genesis 5:3). Like father, like son. The sinner begot a sinner. Now Adam’s sin has spread to all creation: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12).

People are not born “good” because every one of us has been affected by Adam’s sin; there are no exceptions. Romans 5:18 says that “one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people.” We are sinners for two reasons: we actively sin ourselves (we are sinners in practice), and we bear a sinful character passed down from Adam (we are sinners by nature). That’s why we all face physical death: “In Adam all die” (1 Corinthians 15:22).

It’s hard to imagine a sweet, innocent baby being a sinner, but the Bible indicates that even children possess a sin nature. Logically, if our sin nature is inherited from Adam, then babies must already possess the bent to sin. “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child” (Proverbs 22:15). Bolstering the truth of this proverb, a child’s sinful behavior begins to manifest itself quite early in his development; as soon as a child is able to start choosing between obedience and disobedience, he will begin “testing the waters” of disobedience. Children are naturally selfish, and their wayward nature is evident to anyone who has ever been around children.

The definitive passage on the fact that people are not born “good” is Psalm 51:5. Here, David speaks of his own sin nature beginning at conception: “I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me” (CSB).

There is nothing inherently “good” within any of us. There is nothing in us that could earn salvation, and on our own we have no ability to become worthy of God’s favor. We deserve only God’s wrath (Ephesians 2:3). We are dead in our sins (Ephesians 2:1). But thanks be to God, who chose to send His Son, Jesus, into the world. Jesus lived without sin, and His death on the cross paid the penalty we deserved.
https://www.gotquestions.org/born-good.html
If you people used scripture to determine answers to questions maybe you would be wrong so often.
"My ways are not your ways" ... yet you define God by "your ways".
 
The scriptures in question do not statd that babies sin.

The NT states we are born in a fallen state.
It does not state we are born with sin.

A baby cannot fall short of the glory of God since they don't even know who God is in order to worship Him and ask forgiveness. God is just and does not attribute to anyone sins they personally did not commit, including babies.

Jesus said those of the Kingdom are like those children that were around Him. He said we cannot even enter heaven unless we're like them.
So apparently Jesus said babies can't sin.

We're told by John to ask forgiveness if we sin.
A baby can't even speak and a child doesn't even know what a sin is, so how do they ask forgiveness?

The Apostles preached to persons that could understand the bible,,,not to babies or young children.
I think that these are rationalizations, not facts. All humans have inherited original sin from Adam. There may be an age at which they are not held responsible, but that doesn't mean that they are not "infected". There is nothing in Scripture that says that we don't have sin in us until we reach a certain age. It does say that "For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:22b-23. Scripture never says that anyone of any age is without sin, with Jesus being the obvious exception. "A fallen state" and "with sin" are synonymous.

Everyone of any age falls short of the glory of God, again with one exception. You don't have to know who God is to fall short of His glory.
 
There is a common belief today that people are born “good” and most people remain basically good at heart their whole lives. According to this theory, the evil that some people exhibit is the result of environmental factors—people only turn “bad” when external forces beyond their control twist them away from their basic goodness. This is a false, unbiblical view of human nature.

The Bible teaches that none of us are good. We are all born sinners with a sinful, selfish nature inherited from Adam. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God, we will never see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

Psalm 14:2–3 counters the idea that anyone is “good”: “The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Add to this Jesus’ statement that “No one is good—except God alone” (Luke 18:19), and we see that we all stand guilty before God.

In the beginning, God created an absolutely perfect world. God called His creation “very good” in Genesis 1:31. The Garden of Eden was the perfect environment for the first humans, Adam and Eve. Even in that perfect environment, with all their needs met and living in a state of innocence, Adam chose to disobey God. Adam couldn’t blame environmental factors for his sinful choice; it was simply an act of his will to rebel.

When Adam disobeyed God, the first couple lost their innocence, they were ejected from the Garden, and, importantly, their basic nature was corrupted (Genesis 3:7–12). Sin and death became a part of creation. Later, when Adam had a son, the Bible describes the event this way: “He had a son in his own likeness, after his own image” (Genesis 5:3). Like father, like son. The sinner begot a sinner. Now Adam’s sin has spread to all creation: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12).

People are not born “good” because every one of us has been affected by Adam’s sin; there are no exceptions. Romans 5:18 says that “one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people.” We are sinners for two reasons: we actively sin ourselves (we are sinners in practice), and we bear a sinful character passed down from Adam (we are sinners by nature). That’s why we all face physical death: “In Adam all die” (1 Corinthians 15:22).

It’s hard to imagine a sweet, innocent baby being a sinner, but the Bible indicates that even children possess a sin nature. Logically, if our sin nature is inherited from Adam, then babies must already possess the bent to sin. “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child” (Proverbs 22:15). Bolstering the truth of this proverb, a child’s sinful behavior begins to manifest itself quite early in his development; as soon as a child is able to start choosing between obedience and disobedience, he will begin “testing the waters” of disobedience. Children are naturally selfish, and their wayward nature is evident to anyone who has ever been around children.

The definitive passage on the fact that people are not born “good” is Psalm 51:5. Here, David speaks of his own sin nature beginning at conception: “I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me” (CSB).

There is nothing inherently “good” within any of us. There is nothing in us that could earn salvation, and on our own we have no ability to become worthy of God’s favor. We deserve only God’s wrath (Ephesians 2:3). We are dead in our sins (Ephesians 2:1). But thanks be to God, who chose to send His Son, Jesus, into the world. Jesus lived without sin, and His death on the cross paid the penalty we deserved.
https://www.gotquestions.org/born-good.html
If you people used scripture to determine answers to questions maybe you would be wrong so often.
"My ways are not your ways" ... yet you define God by "your ways".
Could you post the denominations you believe teach that we are born good?
Thanks.
(I don't know of any but maybe you do).
 
I think that these are rationalizations, not facts. All humans have inherited original sin from Adam. There may be an age at which they are not held responsible, but that doesn't mean that they are not "infected". There is nothing in Scripture that says that we don't have sin in us until we reach a certain age. It does say that "For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:22b-23. Scripture never says that anyone of any age is without sin, with Jesus being the obvious exception. "A fallen state" and "with sin" are synonymous.

Everyone of any age falls short of the glory of God, again with one exception. You don't have to know who God is to fall short of His glory.
I'm thinking this is just language - I'm not sure.
If a baby has sin, as I think you believe, and he dies, does he go to hell?

I think this is an important topic and would like to continue the discussion - something I don't do too often.
 
I'm thinking this is just language - I'm not sure.
If a baby has sin, as I think you believe, and he dies, does he go to hell?

I think this is an important topic and would like to continue the discussion - something I don't do too often.
Yes, I believe that everyone, regardless of age, is guilty of sin because all people are born with the sin nature. I don't believe that God will punish babies, but I don't believe that they have eternal life either.

I also think that this is an important and very interesting topic and would like to continue the discussion
 
There is nothing inherently “good” within any of us. There is nothing in us that could earn salvation, and on our own we have no ability to become worthy of God’s favor. We deserve only God’s wrath (Ephesians 2:3). We are dead in our sins (Ephesians 2:1). But thanks be to God, who chose to send His Son, Jesus, into the world. Jesus lived without sin, and His death on the cross paid the penalty we deserved.
So many things about your post, but my time is limited for now . I will give you something to cogitate on . The Angel talking to a gentile in a good way !! Sounds like favor to me. What are you thoughts ? I have bible verses for you today :) .

Acts 10​
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
 
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