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In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

jaybo said:
Yes, I believe that everyone, regardless of age, is guilty of sin because all people are born with the sin nature. I don't believe that God will punish babies, but I don't believe that they have eternal life either.

I also think that this is an important and very interesting topic and would like to continue the discussion
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Revelation states that nothing impure will enter into heaven. Rev 21:27

Now, if a baby is guilty of sin and he cannot ask forgiveness,
how do you think he will not go to hell?
He certainly is not going to heaven.
God will HAVE TO punish that baby for Him to be a just God, a good of justice.
Justice means to give to each person what they deserve.
If that baby has sin and did not confess it, the just thing to do is give him what he deserves...hell.

You're trying to have a full barrel and a drunk wife - or, in english,
your cake and eat it too.


for those reading along:
This is for discussion purposes and does not reflect the belief of either poster.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
most people remain basically good at heart their whole lives.
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That is an observable fact.
It's the 'good' person Paul is talking about in Romans 5:7.
Another Biblical creature that Calvinism insists does not exist.

No, I'm not suggesting that this 'good' man is saved. So stop typing, lol.
 
hawkman said:
So many things about your post, but my time is limited for now . I will give you something to cogitate on . The Angel talking to a gentile in a good way !! Sounds like favor to me. What are you thoughts ? I have bible verses for you today
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Not sure what you are talking about. It was my bad for not specifically stating the purpose/theme of my post #355 which is: Babies are born in sin. An answer to this question is given by https://www.gotquestions.org/born-good.html, who gave various biblical references to back up their opinion.
Note: One should give scripture to prove ones point.

Premise 1: The penalty for sin is death Rom. 6:23
Premise 2: Some Babies die
Conclusion: Babies has sin accounted/imputed to them
 
Fastfredy0 said:
According to this theory, the evil that some people exhibit is the result of environmental factors—people only turn “bad” when external forces beyond their control twist them away from their basic goodness. This is a false, unbiblical view of human nature.
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This, again, is an observable fact. Most people really are basically good on the outside unless circumstances push them to resort to doing not so good things. And even then, that doesn't include murdering someone or burning their house down. This is just simple observable fact. Truly evil people who have no conscience and do resort to horribly criminal activity are somewhat rare. We call them psychopaths, or sociopaths. Not everyone is a psychopath or a sociopath, FF. Those are conditions that a reprobate mind may shrink to, but hardly as a hard and fast rule as Calvinism asserts.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
There is a common belief today that people are born “good” and most people remain basically good at heart their whole lives. According to this theory, the evil that some people exhibit is the result of environmental factors—people only turn “bad” when external forces beyond their control twist them away from their basic goodness. This is a false, unbiblical view of human nature.
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Above is the original post.

Then you take it out of context and write:
Fastfredy0 said:
most people remain basically good at heart their whole lives.

Jethro Bodine said:
That is an observable fact.
It's the 'good' person Paul is talking about in Romans 5:7.
Another Biblical creature that Calvinism insists does not exist.
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Dude, you're completely confused and I'm not going to bother trying to set you straight.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
This, again, is an observable fact. Most people really are basically good on the outside unless circumstances push them to resort to doing not so good things.
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A false premise. Show me where the bible says "Most people really are basically good".
You're not making sense.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Babies has sin accounted/imputed to them
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Babies have zero capacity to sin, lol.

And even when children do begin to sin, and they surely will, that sin is not held to their account until they reach the age of accountability for their sin. And I'm pretty sure you know about and agree with the concept of an age of accountability for humans. Yet you have them guilty of sin 1) before they reach that age, and worse than that 2) before they even sin!!!
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Dude, you're completely confused and I'm not going to bother trying to set you straight.
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No, you need to set me straight. Don't you dare run off.
You OWE it to us to explain who the 'good', but not righteous man is in Romans 5:7.

And then you need to explain to us who the man is who is acquitted at the return of Christ who never heard or read the written scriptures (Romans 2:13-16). The man Calvinism insists does not exist.

Now you gots two Biblical kinds of people to explain to us, but which Calvinism says do not exist.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Another statement without biblical foundation. Job 14:4; Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, John 3:6, Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12
Like dude, the bible contradicts you. God speaks for God using the Bible. Then you contradict the bible.
2 Peter 3:16
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You know, I'm all for what the scriptures say. I'll defend the scriptures to the death (hopefully, by God's grace, lol). But when simple observable fact shows you can't interpret scripture the way you are then you have to abandon what you think scripture is suggesting. This is a perfect example. Babies don't sin! They can't even hold their own head up. Get real, man! Stop blindly following these foolish and misguided doctrines of men!
 
Jethro Bodine said:
No, you need to set me straight. Don't you dare run off.
You OWE it to us to explain who the 'good', but not righteous man is in Romans 5:7.
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Dude... you have to consider context. You need to identify what point you are trying to get across. You need to be precise.

There are plenty of commentaries for you to go to explain verses.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Dude... you have to consider context. You need to identify what point you are trying to get across. You need to be precise.

There are plenty of commentaries for you to go to explain verses.
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And herein lies the problem.
too many commentaries,
too many books on systematic theology.
READ THE BIBLE. It comes in handy.

Which denominations believe people are born good?
It would be nice if you SUPPORTED your statements, just like I do.
Maybe you have a YouTube video that refers to this?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Babies don't sin!
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I didn't say they do. They are born in sin. It is imputed to them from Adam. SITE SOME VERSES TO PROVE ME WRONG DUDE .... like, your argumentation has no credibility without scripture.

Isaiah 48:8b For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel.

Psalm 51:5 But I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3 The ungodly are perverse and estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Isaiah 48:8 You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
John 3:6a That which is born of flesh is flesh;
  • Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— … For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners; (Romans 5:12-21)
  • 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written [in Scripture], “The first man, Adam, became a living soul (an individual);” the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving spirit [restoring the dead to life]. 46 However, the spiritual [the immortal life] is not first, but the physical [the mortal life]; then the spiritual. 47 The first man [Adam] is from the earth, earthy [made of dust]; the second Man [Christ, the Lord] is from heaven. 48 As is the earthly man [the man of dust], so are those who are of earth; and as is the heavenly [Man], so are those who are of heaven.

Ephesians 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You know, I'm all for what the scriptures say. I'll defend the scriptures to the death (hopefully, by God's grace, lol). But when simple observable fact shows you can't interpret scripture the way you are then you have to abandon what you think scripture is suggesting. This is a perfect example. Babies don't sin! They can't even hold their own head up. Get real, man! Stop blindly following these foolish and misguided doctrines of men!
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Fastfredy0 doesn't have conversations.
He just likes to make comments.
And so many of them are incorrect.
But why discuss?
He's got the truth.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
I didn't say they do. They are born in sin. It is imputed to them from Adam. SITE SOME VERSES TO PROVE ME WRONG DUDE .... like, your argumentation has no credibility without scripture.

Isaiah 48:8b For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel.

Psalm 51:5 But I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3 The ungodly are perverse and estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Isaiah 48:8 You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
John 3:6a That which is born of flesh is flesh;
  • Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— … For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners; (Romans 5:12-21)
  • 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written [in Scripture], “The first man, Adam, became a living soul (an individual);” the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving spirit [restoring the dead to life]. 46 However, the spiritual [the immortal life] is not first, but the physical [the mortal life]; then the spiritual. 47 The first man [Adam] is from the earth, earthy [made of dust]; the second Man [Christ, the Lord] is from heaven. 48 As is the earthly man [the man of dust], so are those who are of earth; and as is the heavenly [Man], so are those who are of heaven.

Ephesians 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
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Being IMPUTED with sin
is the SAME as sinning.

Look it up.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
A false premise. Show me where the bible says "Most people really are basically good".
You're not making sense.
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Look around you, man!
How many murderers, arsonists, and rapists do you know, or have known???
There is a clear OBSERVABLE distinction between the countless multitude of people who do little more than cheat on their taxes and perhaps on their spouses who never burn down a house, rape or murder somebody, and don't want to, but, who, nonetheless, are unsaved and will go into the fire at the end of the age. They are basically 'good' (Romans 5:7), so, please, STOP making all of mankind out to be psychopathic killers, lol. That is a special and small percentage of all who live. The rest of us, we're basically 'good' neighborly types, but certainly lost, but hardly 'Hitler' evil, lol.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Look around you, man!
How many murderers, arsonists, and rapists do you know, or have known???
There is a clear OBSERVABLE distinction between the countless multitude of people who do little more than cheat on their taxes and perhaps on their spouses who never burn a house down, rape or murder somebody, and don't want to, but who, nonetheless, are unsaved and will go into the fire at the end of the age. They are basically 'good' (Romans 5:7), so please STOP making all of mankind out to be psychopatic killers, lol. That is a special and small percentage of all who live. The rest of us, we're basically good, but certainly lost, but hardly 'Hitler' evil, lol.
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Not only is it observable, but God MADE THEM THAT WAY!
Calvinists truly believe in a different God.


Let him, therefore, who would beware of such unbelief, always bear in mind, that there is no random power, or agency, or motion in the creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.
John Calvin's Institutes
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 3



I concede more--that thieves and murderers, and other evil-doers, are instruments of Divine Providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute the Judgments which he has resolved to inflict.
John Calvin's Institutes
Book 1
Chapter 17
Paragraph 5
 
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