In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave

[Alfred Persson]

I have carefully read the verses of your OP... Nothing there says that the Dead get a chance to change their minds in Hell.
It just says (IMO) that the unbelievers will be resurrected to be judged guilty.
Please actually explain your position.
Where do you get your alternate reading from?

I don't think you read them. Copy paste the precise scripture, the premise I saw in that verse, and show how I misunderstood it, got it wrong.

 

[dwb001]

I don't think you read them. Copy paste the precise scripture, the premise I saw in that verse, and show how I misunderstood it, got it wrong.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)

There is the paste of the verses you wanted... I have no idea what your premise is because you won't answer that question... the only obedience I see in these verses of the dead is to be resurrected upon His command.

Is that what you mean by "obey"?
The dead will live again when they stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ?

If that is what you mean... you have hidden that idea very well.

 

[Alfred Persson]

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)

There is the paste of the verses you wanted... I have no idea what your premise is because you won't answer that question... the only obedience I see in these verses of the dead is to be resurrected upon His command.

Is that what you mean by "obey"?
The dead will live again when they stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ?

If that is what you mean... you have hidden that idea very well.

Those who obey rise to life, those who disobey rise to condemnation. What do they obey? Jesus' demand they do the will of the Father and believe in Him:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

"Hear" or "to have ears to hear", is idiom for Obeying God.

5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" (Matt. 17:5 NKJ)


15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Matt. 11:15 NKJ)

In context, heareth is believeth.

, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him


6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

 

[dwb001]

Those who obey rise to life, those who disobey rise to condemnation. What do they obey? Jesus' demand they do the will of the Father and believe in Him:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Yep... during life you can make the decision to obey or not.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

And when the dead hear the voice... they will live to face judgement.
Where does it say they will be able to pass from Hell to Heaven?

"Hear" or "to have ears to hear", is idiom for Obeying God.

So what is your thesis statement?
In one or two sentences please put forward your thesis.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yep... during life you can make the decision to obey or not.

And when the dead hear the voice... they will live to face judgement.
Where does it say they will be able to pass from Hell to Heaven?

So what is your thesis statement?
In one or two sentences please put forward your thesis.

You ignored my argument, why should I bother commenting, you won't hear it.

Jesus said the dead will hear His voice and all who "hear" (=obey) would live. Life or death are determined by the response to His voice. Jesus' point throughout this context is the Father has authorized the Son to judge and give life to all who obey His voice just like the Father. Just as with the Father, the dead (physically alive or not) are judged by their obedience to Christ's voice:

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)


In John 5:29 the KJV translated the aorist participles as "have done", but context requires "did":

Many commentators minimize the subsequent (following) use of the aorist participle. Even such scholars as Robertson and Moulton, who recognize that the participle is not time-bound, resist this category of usage. But there are a number of examples in biblical and extra-biblical Greek where an aorist participle is used to refer to an action occurring after the action of the main verb. In virtually all of these examples, the aorist participle is placed after the main verb in syntactical order.-Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (p. 189). JSOT.

 

[dwb001]

You ignored my argument, why should I bother commenting, you won't hear it.

What argument?
You have not made an argument yet.
I am asking you what your thesis is and you refuse to answer.
But I answered your questions... why are you afraid to answer mine?

 

[Alfred Persson]

What argument?
You have not made an argument yet.
I am asking you what your thesis is and you refuse to answer.
But I answered your questions... why are you afraid to answer mine?

A one man wrestling match is not my cup of tea. Kock yourself out. You don't need my help.

 

[dwb001]

One man wrestling is not my cup of tea. Kock yourself out. You don't need my help.

So you don't want anyone to understand you?
I just want to know what you are trying to convey.
But you don't want to share your understanding then that is your choice.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So you don't want anyone to understand you?
I just want to know what you are trying to convey.
But you don't want to share your understanding then that is your choice.

Jesus was very clear, just as the Father kills and makes alive based upon their response to His voice, so also does the Son so that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father.

Why can't you hear that? Why are Christ's Words impossible for you to hear?

 

[dwb001]

Jesus was very clear, just as the Father kills and makes alive based upon their response to His voice, so also does the Son so that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father.

Why can't you hear that? Why are Christ's Words impossible for you to hear?

I don't disagree with your first statement in the least.
Your statement that is the title of this post would imply that the dead can make a choice to follow Christ after a life of sin.
The above quote says nothing about the dead... remember... what this post is about.

So you only provided a partial thesis statement.
Please flesh out your position.
I have no problem with your first statement... but the rest of this thread veers off course rather quickly.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't disagree with your first statement in the least.
Your statement that is the title of this post would imply that the dead can make a choice to follow Christ after a life of sin.
The above quote says nothing about the dead... remember... what this post is about.

So you only provided a partial thesis statement.
Please flesh out your position.
I have no problem with your first statement... but the rest of this thread veers off course rather quickly.

Again, you aren't hearing anything I said, so why should I continue to explain it?

I'll try one last time.

The Pharisees accused Christ of blasphemy, He healed a cripple on the Sabbath. They were rejecting His Messianic authority over the Sabbath. Christ doubled down and said God is "my Father" and THAT really pissed them off:

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (Jn. 5:16-23 NKJ)

Christ is claiming to be equal with God. Just as God kills and makes alive based upon their obedience to His voice, so also the Son kills and makes alive based upon their obedience to His voice. This applies, not only to the living, but all the dead in the graves:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you,
he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)

This isn't about judging righteous and unrighteous, Its about Christ's authority to kill and make alive anyone He wants to.

Christ didn't deny He made Himself equal to God, He supported the claim by saying His voice has the same power as God's over the dead, to kill and make alive.

 

[dwb001]

Again, you aren't hearing anything I said, so why should I continue to explain it?

I'll try one last time.

The Jews accused Christ of blasphemy, He healed a cripple on the Sabbath. They were rejecting His Messianic authority over the Sabbath. Christ doubled down and said God is "my Father" and THAT really pissed them off:

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (Jn. 5:16-23 NKJ)

Christ is claiming to be equal with God. Just as God kills and makes alive based upon their obedience to His voice, so also the Son kills and makes alive based upon their obedience to His voice. This applies, not only to the living, but all the dead in the graves:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you,
he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)

This isn't about judging righteous and unrighteous, Its about Christ's authority to kill and make alive anyone He wants to.

Christ didn't deny He made Himself equal to God, He supported the claim by saying His voice has the same power as God's over the dead, to kill and make alive.

So what does that have to do with the dead having a chance to repent in Hell?
You are changing the goals again.
Where does your post answer anything that relates to "In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave"?
You think you are clarifying your position... but you are not.
Please just make a straightforward statement of your position.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So what does that have to do with the dead having a chance to repent in Hell?
You are changing the goals again.
Where does your post answer anything that relates to "In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave"?
You think you are clarifying your position... but you are not.
Please just make a straightforward statement of your position.

Everything. The dead hear the gospel preached, and just like the "spirits in prison" who gave the "answer of a good conscience towards God", they can "live according to God in the spirit":

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
...
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 3:18-4:6 NKJ)

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. (Jn. 5:25 NKJ)

Can you hear what Jesus said now?

 

[dwb001]

Everything. The dead hear the gospel preached, and just like the "spirits in prison" who gave the "answer of a good conscience towards God", they can "live according to God in the spirit":

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
...
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 3:18-4:6 NKJ)

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. (Jn. 5:25 NKJ)

Can you hear what Jesus said now?

I have no problem hearing Jesus.
You on the other hand... I don't understand.
You still have not given a statement that clearly puts forth your position.
You may think you have... but you have not.
Is it so hard to write one or two sentences that clearly state your position?

You are referencing several out of context verses to make your point... vague as it is.
That is not helping your case.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I have no problem hearing Jesus.
You on the other hand... I don't understand.
You still have not given a statement that clearly puts forth your position.
You may think you have... but you have not.
Is it so hard to write one or two sentences that clearly state your position?

You are referencing several out of context verses to make your point... vague as it is.
That is not helping your case.

Fair enough, you can't understand after all my attempts at being clear.

Have a nice day.

 

[dwb001]

Fair enough, you can't understand after all my attempts at being clear. Explaining Jesus in context.

Have a nice day.

But your explanations do not address anything I have asked.
So you would appear to have no interest in explaining yourself and your ideas.
That shows me that you have no basis for your arguments.
So without anything to prove me wrong... I will assume you have nothing to back up your statements.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I have no problem hearing Jesus.
You on the other hand... I don't understand.
You still have not given a statement that clearly puts forth your position.
You may think you have... but you have not.
Is it so hard to write one or two sentences that clearly state your position?

You are referencing several out of context verses to make your point... vague as it is.
That is not helping your case.

On second thought, you claim to have "no problem hearing Jesus"

What did He say to the Pharisees when they complained He made Himself equal to God?

 

[dwb001]

On second thought, you claim to have "no problem hearing Jesus"

What did He say to the Pharisees when they complained He made Himself equal to God?

Which time?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Which time?

You can't hear Jesus, or you would know.

 

[dwb001]

You can't hear Jesus, or you would know.

Well, seeing as it happened multiple times... maybe you should state which one it would have been.