In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave

[Alfred Persson]

We have disagreed Alfred. We teach man is a soul, not have a soul.

Yes, you believe God is the God of the dead, that Abraham Isaac and Jacob don't exist, they are dead.

26 "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying,`I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob '?
27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken." (Mk. 12:26-27 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

We have disagreed Alfred. We teach man is a soul, not have a soul.

Consider these facts. Both the Sadducees and Society believe soul dies when the body dies, therefore both Sadducees and Society believe God is the God of the dead, that Abraham Isaac and Jacob are dead.

Therefore, when Jesus contradicts the Sadducees the souls of the Patriarchs are living and not dead, He also contradicts the Society:

26 "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying,`I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob '?
27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken." (Mk. 12:26-27 NKJ)

The proof against Sadducee-Society belief souls die when the body dies, is clear and inescapable.

Of all men on earth, Jesus knew the facts, He was there.

 

[Randy]

Jesus said the dead will hear His voice and all who "hear" (=obey) would live. Life or death are determined by the response to His voice. Jesus' point throughout this context is the Father has authorized the Son to judge and give life to all who obey His voice just like the Father. Just as with the Father, the dead (physically alive or not) are judged by their obedience to Christ's voice:

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)


In John 5:29 the KJV translated the aorist participles as "have done", but context requires "did":

The Dead in Christ will rise in the 1st resurrection. (The resurrection of us all on the last day) Those alive on earth in Christ on that day will be caught up and changed as in clothed with immortality. A gathering from the ends of the heavens to the ends of the earth.

Man experiences the first death even Christ -(the flesh) As Jesus stated the dead will hear His voice... It is His Fathers will to raise us up on the last day all those the Father has given Him.
only the wicked or unrighteous experience the 2nd death - consigned to the lake of fire

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

There is no change of mind.
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

 

[Highway54]

Yes, you believe God is the God of the dead, that Abraham Isaac and Jacob don't exist, they are dead.

26 "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying,`I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob '?
27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken." (Mk. 12:26-27 NKJ)

I believe Jehovah is God sir, which is either correct or not.

For you to say that about me would be as silly as you believing that God has forgotten Abraham and Isaac since they are in fact dead. Like the verse you posted states, He is the God of the living, and make no mistake, Abraham and Isaac will in fact live again sir, in fact they are alive in God's memory. Are you familiar with what the grave is to Jehovah Jn 5:28? Ever research what original word was there sir? Here it is:
mnhmei'on Mnemeion (mnay-mi'-on);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 3419
any visible object for preserving or recalling the memory of any person or thing
a memorial, monument, specifically, a sepulchral monument

Yes they are very securely in God's memory, alive to Him sir, and just as sure as He exists, they too will be resurrected, which literally means raising up/standing up. Since they died before the new covenant, and before Penecost of 33CE they were not spirit begotten, so they were not part of the first resurrection. They will be among those who will be resurrected during the millennial reign of Christ sir.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe Jehovah is God sir, which is either correct or not.

For you to say that about me would be as silly as you believing that God has forgotten Abraham and Isaac since they are in fact dead. Like the verse you posted states, He is the God of the living, and make no mistake, Abraham and Isaac will in fact live again sir, in fact they are alive in God's memory. Are you familiar with what the grave is to Jehovah Jn 5:28? Ever research what original word was there sir? Here it is:
mnhmei'on Mnemeion (mnay-mi'-on);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 3419
any visible object for preserving or recalling the memory of any person or thing
a memorial, monument, specifically, a sepulchral monument

Yes they are very securely in God's memory, alive to Him sir, and just as sure as He exists, they too will be resurrected, which literally means raising up/standing up. Since they died before the new covenant, and before Penecost of 33CE they were not spirit begotten, so they were not part of the first resurrection. They will be among those who will be resurrected during the millennial reign of Christ sir.

"live again"; "Alive in His memory", is still dead. Jesus rejected that idea precisely, its what the Sadducees believed, that they were dead.

They are not dead, they are living in God's presence.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Dead in Christ will rise in the 1st resurrection. (The resurrection of us all on the last day) Those alive on earth in Christ on that day will be caught up and changed as in clothed with immortality. A gathering from the ends of the heavens to the ends of the earth.

Man experiences the first death even Christ -(the flesh) As Jesus stated the dead will hear His voice... It is His Fathers will to raise us up on the last day all those the Father has given Him.
only the wicked or unrighteous experience the 2nd death - consigned to the lake of fire

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

There is no change of mind.
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

Interesting, but you ignored completely the verses I cited.

Why?

Perhaps this is why: they contradict your opinions so badly you don't want to discuss them?

 

[Randy]

Interesting, but you ignored completely the verses I cited.

Why?

Perhaps this is why: they contradict your opinions so badly you don't want to discuss them?

You mean Christ raising the dead? Yes so what? I think I touched on that.

 

[Randy]

"live again"; "Alive in His memory", is still dead. Jesus rejected that idea precisely, its what the Sadducees believed, that they were dead.

They are not dead, they are living in God's presence.

The "dead" in Christ are alive. What's your point?

 

[Alfred Persson]

You mean Christ raising the dead? Yes so what? I think I touched on that.

Twitter and an Apologetics forum are different. In Twitterville one simply says "you are wrong" and then gives their opinion. In Apologetics, you prove someone is wrong by showing how the verse they cited for proof, doesn't prove what they claim.

In apologetics, ignoring the premises supporting a conclusion but still rejecting the conclusion implies the disputer: 1) Cannot defeat the conclusion with logic or facts.

But on Twitter people can call each other names all day long, and everyone goes home satisfied they told so and so off and delude themselves everyone reading loves them and supports their opinion.

I respond to Twitterpeople rarely. Its a waste of time to prove a point to the clueless, who believe what they believe because (by osmosis from their group, or cult), they believe it. No critical thinking was employed. They don't even know what critical thinking is. Or apologetics.

What is apologetics?​

In its most basic sense, apologetics refers to systematic argumentative discourse. Breaking that definition down further, it means that an alternative view of a topic is offered in an organized fashion. It doesn’t have to be argumentative in the sense of being quarrelsome. Of course, most of us have probably experienced that once any conversation turns to Christianity.

After all, Christian apologetics is what we’re talking about here, the intellectual defense of the truth of the Christian religion. Many tend to get a bit passionate when defending something they hold near and dear to their heart.

But the word apologetics itself stems from the Greek word apologia, which means simply an answer given in reply.1 Think of this less as a debate and more like telling your friend about this buried chest you’ve found. You’re convinced the chest holds an infinitely invaluable treasure, but your friend has some questions.

Enter apologetics. Put simply, it is the rational response against the objections people bring up about Christianity. And over the course of 2,000 years, there have been a few objections. So if you value having a reasoned response over a frustrated folding of arms and a refusal to engage, then apologetics has something to offer you.

What is Apologetics?

Grace Theological Seminary explores - What is Apologetics? Get equipped for ministry with Christian Apologetics and learn about our programs.

seminary.grace.edu

 

[Alfred Persson]

The "dead" in Christ are alive. What's your point?

I'm speaking to a JW who, like the Sadducees doesn't believe people have souls, that when physically dead the person no longer exist. I proved by the Teaching of Christ, that is incorrect. That was my point to him, not to you.

 

[Randy]

Twitter and an Apologetics forum are different. In Twitterville one simply says "you are wrong" and then gives their opinion. In Apologetics, you prove someone is wrong by showing how the verse they cited for proof, doesn't prove what they claim.

In apologetics, ignoring the premises supporting a conclusion but still rejecting the conclusion implies the disputer: 1) Cannot defeat the conclusion with logic or facts.

But on Twitter people can call each other names all day long, and everyone goes home satisfied they told so and so off and delude themselves everyone reading loves them and supports their opinion.

I respond to Twitterpeople rarely. Its a waste of time to prove a point to the clueless, who believe what they believe because (by osmosis from their group, or cult), they believe it. No critical thinking was employed. They don't even know what critical thinking is. Or apologetics.

What is apologetics?​

In its most basic sense, apologetics refers to systematic argumentative discourse. Breaking that definition down further, it means that an alternative view of a topic is offered in an organized fashion. It doesn’t have to be argumentative in the sense of being quarrelsome. Of course, most of us have probably experienced that once any conversation turns to Christianity.

After all, Christian apologetics is what we’re talking about here, the intellectual defense of the truth of the Christian religion. Many tend to get a bit passionate when defending something they hold near and dear to their heart.

But the word apologetics itself stems from the Greek word apologia, which means simply an answer given in reply.1 Think of this less as a debate and more like telling your friend about this buried chest you’ve found. You’re convinced the chest holds an infinitely invaluable treasure, but your friend has some questions.

Enter apologetics. Put simply, it is the rational response against the objections people bring up about Christianity. And over the course of 2,000 years, there have been a few objections. So if you value having a reasoned response over a frustrated folding of arms and a refusal to engage, then apologetics has something to offer you.

What is Apologetics?

Grace Theological Seminary explores - What is Apologetics? Get equipped for ministry with Christian Apologetics and learn about our programs.

seminary.grace.edu

You think those that reject Christ have hope? Is this the purpose of this thread?

 

[Alfred Persson]

You think those that reject Christ have hope? Is this the purpose of this thread?

No. Enemies of God, knowingly wicked, will die the death on Judgment Day. Including TARES sown among the wheat:

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 13:36-42 NKJ)

That's three twitter like posts I've responded to. If you lack training in apologetics, there are books that teach it.

 

[Randy]

No. Enemies of God, knowingly wicked, will die the death on Judgment Day. Including TARES sown among the wheat:

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 13:36-42 NKJ)

That's three twitter like posts I've responded to. If you lack training in apologetics, there are books that teach it.

Your message isn't found in those books. I'm trying to understand the context of "your" message.

In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave​

Since the dead in Christ rise first and if there is no resurrection of the dead then even Christ has not be raised then the dead do hear Jesus's voice. Jesus stated all those the Father gave Him would come to Him and its His Fathers will that He raise them up on the last day. "The resurrection of the dead"

Jesus confirmed a day when the dead would gear His voice. As stated elsewhere "the dead in Christ" rise first.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Your message isn't found in those books. I'm trying to understand the context of "your" message.

In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave​

Since the dead in Christ rise first and if there is no resurrection of the dead then even Christ has not be raised then the dead do hear Jesus's voice. Jesus stated all those the Father gave Him would come to Him and its His Fathers will that He raise them up on the last day. "The resurrection of the dead"

Jesus confirmed a day when the dead would gear His voice. As stated elsewhere "the dead in Christ" rise first.

Try understanding the scriptures I cited first. Starting with the OP, Post #1. Then we can talk starting with that.

 

[Randy]

You haven't explained how Christ can say the Dead are conscious, able to hear "the voice" of the Son of God (who has the keys to hades), and all who "did good" shall come out to the resurrection of life, if the souls of the dead died when the body died

the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The Society, although claiming to believe the Bible, doesn't believe what is plainly written in it.

That's why I left them.

“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

I don't believe those accusers at Jesus's trial will be the children of God raised on the last day. (The dead in Christ)

With light comes accountability to all. Justice
"Here is My Servant, whom I have chosen, My beloved, in whom My soul delights. I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will proclaim justice to the nations.

No change of Mind - His repentance was rejected

See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

Only those who died before the light was given and apart from Law were given forgiveness.
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

They would have believed and that was found in their favor.
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

But the head of the body of Christ did not teach people could reject Him for any reason and "Live"
He stated just the opposite.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

 

[Alfred Persson]

“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

I don't believe those accusers at Jesus's trial will be the children of God raised on the last day. (The dead in Christ)

With light comes accountability to all. Justice
"Here is My Servant, whom I have chosen, My beloved, in whom My soul delights. I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will proclaim justice to the nations.

No change of Mind - His repentance was rejected

See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

Only those who died before the light was given and apart from Law were given forgiveness.
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

They would have believed and that was found in their favor.
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

But the head of the body of Christ did not teach people could reject Him for any reason and "Live"
He stated just the opposite.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Sir, you replied to my discussion with Highway54, which is tangential to my 1st post #1. He is a JW who believes souls cease to exist when the body dies. Nothing you said is relevant to that conversation, or to this thread.

There was a time I did the same as you, nothing others said made any impression. I couldn't hear what they said, because I was too busy thinking about what I would say.

Its embarrassing to be so self-absorbed you cannot even think about the other person's opinion, before you begin ranting.

There are books that teach apologetics, how to prove what you say fits the facts. But the first thing they all teach---first you must completely understand what your opponent is saying, know what facts support his position. You might discover its right.

Top 10 Apologetics Books | ReasonableTheology.org

Our Top 10 most-recommended Apologetics books include resources from Frank Turek, Lee Strobel, Greg Koukl, and other top apologists.

reasonabletheology.org

 

[dwb001]

I have carefully read the verses of your OP... Nothing there says that the Dead get a chance to change their minds in Hell.
It just says (IMO) that the unbelievers will be resurrected to be judged guilty.
Please actually explain your position.
Where do you get your alternate reading from?

 

[Highway54]

"live again"; "Alive in His memory", is still dead. Jesus rejected that idea precisely, its what the Sadducees believed, that they were dead.

They are not dead, they are living in God's presence.

Why did Jesus die sir?

 

[Randy]

Sir, you replied to my discussion with Highway54, which is tangential to my 1st post #1. He is a JW who believes souls cease to exist when the body dies. Nothing you said is relevant to that conversation, or to this thread.

There was a time I did the same as you, nothing others said made any impression. I couldn't hear what they said, because I was too busy thinking about what I would say.

Its embarrassing to be so self-absorbed you cannot even think about the other person's opinion, before you begin ranting.

There are books that teach apologetics, how to prove what you say fits the facts. But the first thing they all teach---first you must completely understand what your opponent is saying, know what facts support his position. You might discover its right.

Top 10 Apologetics Books | ReasonableTheology.org

Our Top 10 most-recommended Apologetics books include resources from Frank Turek, Lee Strobel, Greg Koukl, and other top apologists.

reasonabletheology.org

How surprising your still adhering to known truths that oppose you as twitter comments and opinions. If Jesus preached to the spirits in prison then there must be aware spirits imprisoned. As I gave with light comes accountability. If you state those that die apart from Christ perish, then we are in complete agreement. So, I must be stating "no change of mind" in that regard and you must be implying otherwise. If not, then we are in agreement.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Why did Jesus die sir?

For our sins.