Infant Immersion

[JLB]

Are there Biblical examples where God uses the material to save his his people?

Save from natural destruction or eternal damnation?


I know this, we are saved by God telling us to do a certain thing and we do it. That principle is the obedience of faith.


Example:

Noah saved his household because he obeyed the Lord.

The wood did not save, but his obedience to God is what did the saving.


Im sure you have a good point to make, and I will surely consider your point of view.


JLB

 

[Doug Brents]

Dying to sin is not a one time thing, but a daily discipline.

For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Romans 6:10-13

• Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

JLB

Death to sin is both a one time event, and also an ongoing event. But if the one time event does not take place, the ongoing does not occur.
Just as Jesus died once and then lives for God, so we die once and then live for God from then on.

 

[JLB]

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin (When did we die to sin? He tells us in the next sentence.) live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Christ Jesus were immersed into His death? Therefore (because we have been immersed into Christ's death) we were buried with Him through immersion into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death (if we have not, none of the rest of the sentence matters), certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Romans 6:1-6

We died to sin when we were immersed into death with Christ and were raised with Christ from this burial into new life.

My point is certainly not to discourage people from being baptized in water. I believe all should be baptized in water.

My point is this:

Baptism in water is for believers.

Baptism in water is not for unbelievers.

• “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Acts 8:35-37



I also believe we as the Church should return to the pattern of the early Church, in doing things the way they did.

Which involves baptism in water as soon as a person believes, if at all possible.


I hope we can all agree on this point.




JLB

 

[Doug Brents]

Save from natural destruction or eternal damnation?

I know this, we are saved by God telling us to do a certain thing and we do it. That principle is the obedience of faith.

Example:

Noah saved his household because he obeyed the Lord.

The wood did not save, but his obedience to God is what did the saving.

Im sure you have a good point to make, and I will surely consider your point of view.

JLB

You are correct. The wood did not save him, any more than I am saying the water saves us. The point is that if Noah had gone through all the work to build the ark, and not been in it when the flood came, he would have died with all the rest of the world. He had to build the ark, and get into it, to be "saved". So with us, we must go through the water to be saved. The water is not what saves. It is the Spirit of God that saves. But if we are not buried in the water in likeness of Christ's burial, we are not united with His death, and thus not resurrected with Him.

 

[Doug Brents]

My point is certainly not to discourage people from being baptized in water. I believe all should be baptized in water.

My point is this:

Baptism in water is for believers.

Baptism in water is not for unbelievers.

• “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Acts 8:35-37

I also believe we as the Church should return to the pattern of the early Church, in doing things the way they did.

Which involves baptism in water as soon as a person believes, if at all possible.

I hope we can all agree on this point.

JLB

I definately agree with doing things based upon the example of the first century Church. And from all the evidence I see in Scripture, they believed that salvation occurred during immersion (Acts 22:16). Belief did not save Saul. He was still in sin three days after he believed.

 

[JLB]

Death to sin is both a one time event, and also an ongoing event. But if the one time event does not take place, the ongoing does not occur.
Just as Jesus died once and then lives for God, so we die once and then live for God from then on.

Water baptism is identifying with the “likeness“ of His death.

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Romans 6:5


If their is no believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, then water baptism is useless.


It is believing in our heart, and confessing with our mouth, the way we are saved, not by water baptism.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


I believe have made my point.


If you believe we are saved by water baptism then so be it.


If you want me to show you the three different baptisms in the scriptures, I will be glad to.




JLB

 

[JLB]

It is the Spirit of God that saves.

I agree

 

[JLB]

And from all the evidence I see in Scripture, they believed that salvation occurred during immersion (Acts 22:16). Belief did not save Saul. He was still in sin three days after he believed.

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ Acts 22:16




Calling on the name of the Lord is how we are saved, and our sins are washed away by His blood.


Natural water does not wash away our sins.


Only the blood of Jesus washes away our sin.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4


The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
John 1:29



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin (When did we die to sin? He tells us in the next sentence.) live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Christ Jesus were immersed into His death? Therefore (because we have been immersed into Christ's death) we were buried with Him through immersion into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death (if we have not, none of the rest of the sentence matters), certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Romans 6:1-6

We died to sin when we were immersed into death with Christ and were raised with Christ from this burial into new life.

DB,,,the above is from the Complete Jewish Bible.

However, the Jewish religion does not believe in baptism....or does it??

If not,,,we must go by what the early church taught, and that is what Jesus said to the Apostles as He sent them on their long journey to convert the "world" of that time.

Matthew 28:19
19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Did you know that the Early Apostolic Fathers taught that if there was not sufficient water, one could be baptized by sprinkling?

Water is a symbol of becoming clean.
The Holy Spirit does not need to be immersed in order to do His work.

Are you stating that all persons that were sprinkled at baptism are lost?
Even though they believe in God?

 

[GodsGrace]

Absolutely there must be actions taken after repentance. And absolutely there should be no practice of infant immersion.

But we are not saved when we "believe" (as in mental assent). We are saved when we exercise faith, for that is when grace (God's gift of salvation) is received (Eph 2:8-9).

I do believe I've said this before.
NO ONE on this forum believes, as some do, that we are saved when we mentally assent to the knowledge of Jesus.

We believe that we must be DISCIPLES of Christ in order to be saved.
If we are disciples of Christ...it means HE is our teacher and we follow His teachings.

As to baptism,,,I'm beginning to understand that it is IMMERSION that you're interested in...not baptism in and of itself. Am I wrong?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi JLB,
Two things before I reply.
1. I do not hold a legalistic view of baptism. It is not a line in the sand that is used as a demarcation of ones salvation.
2. I am only discussing Romans 6, so what I say is focused solely on those passages.

John 12:24 ESV in reference to following Jesus.
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

In Jesus analogy, we see that this grain of wheat is alive, yet it must fall to the ground, die and after it dies, it bears much fruit. Such is following Jesus. We must die to self in order to be reborn or as others like to say, born again.

As I stated earlier, Romans 6 is a picture of the old dying, being United in Christ, and being raised in newness with Christ.

So far, I don't think we disagree on what I've written. Actually, I think at this point we all should be in full agreement.

From what I see, the disagreement between you and I is a matter of what role the water plays while your disagreement with Doug may be that he views water baptism as a legal requirement.

I'll let you follow up with Doug, but I ask you don't view my reply in contrast to his assertions.

If our disagreement is based on what role the water plays in salvation, then I need to ask you this simple question.

Are there Biblical examples where God uses the material to save his his people?

John 12:24
I believe this verse is referring to Jesus Himself.
He is the grain that must die to cause much fruit---Christians.

 

[stovebolts]

Save from natural destruction or eternal damnation?


I know this, we are saved by God telling us to do a certain thing and we do it. That principle is the obedience of faith.


Example:

Noah saved his household because he obeyed the Lord.

The wood did not save, but his obedience to God is what did the saving.


Im sure you have a good point to make, and I will surely consider your point of view.


JLB

I believe that as born again Christians, we are living the resurrected life.

I believe God can use the material to save.

1 Peter 1:3b ASV.
when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

We see here that Peter is referring to the salvation of Noah and his family through water. I do not believe this negates Noah's faith or obedience. We understand that if Noah had not had faith nor obedience the water would have destroyed him.

Had Noah not had faith nor obedience? Would he have been saved? I believe the answer is no.

Now then, we need to ask the question.
What purpose did the water serve to those who believed, and those who were disobedient?

 

[stovebolts]

John 12:24
I believe this verse is referring to Jesus Himself.
He is the grain that must die to cause much fruit---Christians.

And we are to walk as Jesus walked, do the things Jesus did... That means picking up our cross. We see this clearly in the first century as even Saul persecuted followers of Jesus.
But it's deeper than that, and in the following passages Jesus explains to His followers what dieing to self looks like and what they must do to be like Him.

 

[stovebolts]

My point is certainly not to discourage people from being baptized in water. I believe all should be baptized in water.

My point is this:

Baptism in water is for believers.

Baptism in water is not for unbelievers.

• “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Acts 8:35-37



I also believe we as the Church should return to the pattern of the early Church, in doing things the way they did.

Which involves baptism in water as soon as a person believes, if at all possible.


I hope we can all agree on this point.




JLB

I can get behind this 100%. Good post Brother.

The beauty of the story of the Eunuch in regard to Baptism is this. He was not commanded to be baptized and he wasn't being obedient to a commandment.

Rather, his response to the Gospel was he wanted to participate in it. In other words, his response wasn't based on keeping a commandment. Instead, his response was that of eagerness to be a part of something much bigger than himself.

 

[jaybo]

Is there a difference between "given for free" and "freely given"?

I'm not sure why you're asking this but of course there is a difference. "Given for free" means there is no cost attached to the gift. "Freely given" means the giver isn't compelled to give.

 

[jaybo]

I am trying to understand your use of the term "I am not under Law".

Will you please explain to me how you mix baptism (a commandment from Jesus) with the Law?

I don't recall saying "I am not under Law" even though that is of course true, as it is for all Christians.

Any "commandment" is also a law, but Christians are not under the law. We are led by the Holy Spirit; he is our guide that will lead us into all truth. The law -- any law -- is for those who require external regulation.

 

[JLB]

What purpose did the water serve to those who believed, and those who were disobedient?

Since Peter says that is an antitype, indicating the water that once destroyed the ungodly serves to now “save” those who obey.

We must recognize that Noah’s obedience served to “save” his household from physical destruction serving as a type or shadow of our obedience that serves to saves us from eternal destruction.


The ark is a type of Christ. Those who are in Christ are saved.

Noah and His family never entered the water.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Any "commandment" is also a law, but Christians are not under the law.

True.

The context is indicating we are not under the law of Moses.

We are however to obey the Law of Christ.

Under the law means “under obligation to obey the law of Moses”


Now we are under grace; under obligation to obey the Spirit of grace, which is why the scripture says... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


The Spirit of grace is the Holy Spirit, which is also the Spirit of truth.

We are under obligation to obey the truth.



God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

I’m not disagreeing with you, but just putting into perspective some things about the law and grace.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I don't recall saying "I am not under Law" even though that is of course true, as it is for all Christians.

This is the second time I have shown you your post where you said "I am not under Law"
Post 171

I am not under law but under grace. Have a nice day (even if you're totally wrong).

"Any commandment" is also a law, but Christians are not under the law. We are led by the Holy Spirit; he is our guide that will lead us into all truth. The

Jesus said,

John 13:34
New International Version
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

If I understand your reasoning, this would be considered a law that were not required to keep.

The Holy Spirit Will lead us to truth, and that truth will not compromise the truth found in scripture.

 

[stovebolts]

Since Peter says that is an antitype, indicating the water that once destroyed the ungodly serves to now “save” those who obey.

We must recognize that Noah’s obedience served to “save” his household from physical destruction serving as a type or shadow of our obedience that serves to saves us from eternal destruction.


The ark is a type of Christ. Those who are in Christ are saved.

Noah and His family never entered the water.


JLB

While I do agree with what you say, it does not answer my question

What purpose / function did the water serve?

Edit to add:
We're painting a picture of Romans 6