Infant Immersion

[JLB]

In Romans 6, we see this picture of a dead man going into the waters and being raised as a new man in Christ. It's a picture of rebirth.

Point taken.

However, is it the water that gives us the new birth, or the Spirit?

I say it’s the Spirit that gives us the new birth, because we have obeyed the Gospel.


I will say this, that we all need to be baptized in water, as well as baptized with the Holy Spirit, if we are to be people that obey our Lord.


Amen.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Baptism of the water prepares us for Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
John the Baptist said that HE baptized with WATER, but there was one coming after him that would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3:11

Amen.

 

[JLB]

While I do not view Baptism as a line in the sand that denotes the point of salvation, I do view it as a commitment to God. God has already committed himself to us, and we see this clearly through the cross. God showed us his commitment toward us through Jesus.

So true, and well said.

This is a point that I believe we can all agree on, and I hope we do.


It’s interesting that the Ethiopian eunuch understood this very thing, as I believe Phillip, in preaching Jesus, taught him that water baptism was a part of submitting to Jesus as Lord.


Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:35-38


It seems that the early Church, in preaching Jesus, included baptism in water.




JLB

 

[Doug Brents]

Brother that is absolutely not true, and this unbiblical teaching is responsible for many false conversions.

We are born again by the Holy Spirit when we hear and believe the Gospel.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

We are not born again by being dunked in water.

JLB

If that were true, that would make a lie of many other passages. You cannot take just one passage and build your doctrine on it, and that is what you are doing here. Your thinking here excludes other passages like Mark 16:16 which says that those who believe and are immersed will be saved. Or Acts 2:38 which says those who repent and are immersed will have their sins forgiven (saved). Remember that you must take every passage that concerns a topic into account before you reach your conclusion, not just the ones that agree with your preconception.

If we were born again when we believe, why does Rom 6:1-6 says that it occurs during immersion? Why are we immersed into Christ, and thus immersed into His death, and thus united with His resurrection during immersion? Or Col 2:11-15 which says that the Holy Spirit does the circumcision (cutting our sins away) during immersion so that we can be united with Christ's resurrection? We are not born again by belief. We are born again by the Spirit DURING immersion. This is said again in Eph 5:32 which says that Jesus purifies His bride (the Church) by the washing of water through the power of the Word.

 

[Doug Brents]

I don't understand why you're asking the last question on your post since I, sadly, haven't been following along,,,

But I know JLB believes there is ACTION after REPENTANCE.
Otherwise, repentance would be of no value --- if we just kept living our life as before. This would mean there was no repentance...no turning from our ways to a the new way of God.

As to immersion of infants....

There should be no such practice.

Baptism of the water prepares us for Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
John the Baptist said that HE baptized with WATER, but there was one coming after him that would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3:11

Jesus said to wait in Jerusalem....
Because POWER would come upon us when the Holy Spirit came.
Acts 1:8

So, we are saved when we believe.
Then we follow the Lord's commandment and get water baptized.
We are also empowered by the Holy Spirit,,,,either at baptism, or at some time
after when we are ready to accept the Holy Spirit and our new way of life.

Absolutely there must be actions taken after repentance. And absolutely there should be no practice of infant immersion.

But we are not saved when we "believe" (as in mental assent). We are saved when we exercise faith, for that is when grace (God's gift of salvation) is received (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[JLB]

If that were true, that would make a lie of many other passages. You cannot take just one passage and build your doctrine on it, and that is what you are doing here. Your thinking here excludes other passages like Mark 16:16 which says that those who believe and are immersed will be saved.

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

• He who believes and is baptized will be saved;

We can certainly conclude Jesus did not say “immersed in water”. (I see that you are one of those who states his opinion then tags your opinion with a scripture reference.)


Which baptism is Jesus referring to here in this verse?

You have a choice of three?



JLB

 

[JLB]

If we were born again when we believe, why does Rom 6:1-6 says that it occurs during immersion?

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Romans 6:1-6


Please point out which verse here you mentioned, that says we are born again by being immersed in water?



JLB

 

[Doug Brents]

Point taken.

However, is it the water that gives us the new birth, or the Spirit?

I say it’s the Spirit that gives us the new birth, because we have obeyed the Gospel.

I will say this, that we all need to be baptized in water, as well as baptized with the Holy Spirit, if we are to be people that obey our Lord.

Amen.

JLB

Most assuredly, it is the Spirit that saves, not the water. But He does the saving IN the water, not before. This is seen in all of the passages I have referenced before, Eph 5:32, Col 2:11-15, Rom 6:1-6, etc. The Spirit is what saves through the power of Jesus' sacrifice. And His work occurs during immersion.

 

[JLB]

Most assuredly, it is the Spirit that saves, not the water.

Amen.

Im glad we can agree on this critical point.

 

[JLB]

But He does the saving IN the water, not before.

I respectfully disagree.



JLB

 

[Doug Brents]

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Romans 6:1-6

Please point out which verse here you mentioned, that says we are born again by being immersed in water?

JLB

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin (When did we die to sin? He tells us in the next sentence.) live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Christ Jesus were immersed into His death? Therefore (because we have been immersed into Christ's death) we were buried with Him through immersion into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death (if we have not, none of the rest of the sentence matters), certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Romans 6:1-6

We died to sin when we were immersed into death with Christ and were raised with Christ from this burial into new life.

 

[JLB]

This is seen in all of the passages I have referenced before, Eph 5:32, Col 2:11-15, Rom 6:1-6, etc. The Spirit is what saves through the power of Jesus' sacrifice. And His work occurs during immersion.

It would be best to take each scripture that you believe makes the point of: “His work occurs during immersion.”


Post the scripture itself and let’s examine it to see where the phrase “His work occurs during immersion” in each scripture you post.




JLB

 

[JLB]

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin (When did we die to sin? He tells us in the next sentence.) live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Christ Jesus were immersed into His death? Therefore (because we have been immersed into Christ's death) we were buried with Him through immersion into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death (if we have not, none of the rest of the sentence matters), certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Romans 6:1-6

We died to sin when we were immersed into death with Christ and were raised with Christ from this burial into new life.

No mentioned of being born again by being immersed in water.


You are projecting a preconceived idea that baptism in water is how we are born again.

We are born again by the Spirit, when we believe and there obey the Gospel.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Baptism in water comes after a person is saved by grace through faith.


There are three distinct baptisms in the Bible with three different baptizers administering each baptism.


Baptism in water is administered by man.


JLB

 

[JLB]

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin (When did we die to sin? He tells us in the next sentence.) live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Christ Jesus were immersed into His death? Therefore (because we have been immersed into Christ's death) we were buried with Him through immersion into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death (if we have not, none of the rest of the sentence matters), certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Romans 6:1-6

We died to sin when we were immersed into death with Christ and were raised with Christ from this burial into new life.

Who baptizes us in water?

 

[Doug Brents]

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

• He who believes and is baptized will be saved;

We can certainly conclude Jesus did not say “immersed in water”. (I see that you are one of those who states his opinion then tags your opinion with a scripture reference.)

Which baptism is Jesus referring to here in this verse?

You have a choice of three?
JLB

There is only one NT immersion. (Eph 4:5)
Scripture must be where we turn to find out which one (of the ones you speak) is THE ONE.
What does it say?
Eph 5:25-27 - "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water (water immersion) by the word (the action of the Holy Spirit), that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish."
1 Pet 3:18-21 - "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (this must be water immersion or it makes no sense to refer to it as an antitype of the Flood) (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) (in reference to the Jewish ceremonial washings to remove physical filth, NT immersion is not for physical, but spiritual cleansing), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,..."
And there are others, but this is enough. It is water immersion that is NT "baptism".

 

[JLB]

We died to sin when we were immersed into death with Christ and were raised with Christ from this burial into new life.

Dying to sin is not a one time thing, but a daily discipline.


For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Romans 6:10-13

• Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

JLB

 

[Doug Brents]

No mentioned of being born again by being immersed in water.

You are projecting a preconceived idea that baptism in water is how we are born again.

We are born again by the Spirit, when we believe and there obey the Gospel.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Baptism in water comes after a person is saved by grace through faith.

There are three distinct baptisms in the Bible with three different baptizers administering each baptism.

Baptism in water is administered by man.
JLB

You can't see the very clear connection between immersion and rebirth through Christ?
Look then at the similarities between Rom 6:1-6 and Col 2:11-14.
"In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in immersion, in which (In what? In immersion.) you also were raised with Him (reborn) through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Again, we are buried with Christ in water immersion during which we are reborn by the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

There is only one NT immersion. (Eph 4:5)
Scripture must be where we turn to find out which one (of the ones you speak) is THE ONE.
What does it say?

How many God’s are there in the Godhead?

Three or One.


Scripture and rightly dividing scripture by the leading of the Holy Spirit must be where we turn to find answers.


Otherwise Saul of Tarsus would never have persecuted the Church, because he was thoroughly acquainted with scripture as a Pharisee of Pharisee’s.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You can't see the very clear connection between immersion and rebirth through Christ?
Look then at the similarities between Rom 6:1-6 and Col 2:11-14.
"In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in immersion, in which (In what? In immersion.) you also were raised with Him (reborn) through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Again, we are buried with Christ in water immersion during which we are reborn by the Spirit.

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:4

• even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The water itself does nothing.

It is a heart of faith empowered by the Spirit that accomplishes the work of obedience. The obedience of faith.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

However, is it the water that gives us the new birth, or the Spirit?

I say it’s the Spirit that gives us the new birth, because we have obeyed the Gospel.

Hi JLB,
Two things before I reply.
1. I do not hold a legalistic view of baptism. It is not a line in the sand that is used as a demarcation of ones salvation.
2. I am only discussing Romans 6, so what I say is focused solely on those passages.

John 12:24 ESV in reference to following Jesus.
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

In Jesus analogy, we see that this grain of wheat is alive, yet it must fall to the ground, die and after it dies, it bears much fruit. Such is following Jesus. We must die to self in order to be reborn or as others like to say, born again.

As I stated earlier, Romans 6 is a picture of the old dying, being United in Christ, and being raised in newness with Christ.

So far, I don't think we disagree on what I've written. Actually, I think at this point we all should be in full agreement.

From what I see, the disagreement between you and I is a matter of what role the water plays while your disagreement with Doug may be that he views water baptism as a legal requirement.

I'll let you follow up with Doug, but I ask you don't view my reply in contrast to his assertions.

If our disagreement is based on what role the water plays in salvation, then I need to ask you this simple question.

Are there Biblical examples where God uses the material to save his his people?