Infant Immersion

[jaybo]

I am trying to understand your use of the term "I am not under Law".

Will you please explain to me how you mix baptism (a commandment from Jesus) with the Law?

I don't know what you mean, as I never wrote "I am not under Law". My entire post, repeated:

Baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is clearly not water baptism. Name does not mean water.

I urge you to refrain from rude or harsh replies.

There are several passages that prove that the "one immersion" spoken of in Eph 4:5 is water immersion. For instance, 1 Pet 3:21 says that water immersion is analogous to The Flood which saved Noah and his family. Eph 5:25-27 tells us that it is through the washing of water by the Word that we are purified. Col 2:11-15 and Rom 6:1-6 both tell us that it is the Spirit doing the work during immersion (where we are buried with Christ and raised to walk a new life).

There is only one immersion, and that immersion must be water immersion. And it IS the point at which the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sins and add us to the Church by the power of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

I guess there's no convincing you about what the Bible says about the several types of baptism. Twisting Scripture to prove a predetermined point doesn't mean much to those of us who know the Bible.

 

[stovebolts]

I don't know what you mean, as I never wrote "I am not under Law". My entire post, repeated:

Please see post 171

I am not under law but under grace. Have a nice day (even if you're totally wrong).

Baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is clearly not water baptism. Name does not mean water.

Let's clear up your comment about the Law in reference to Baptism before we address this comment. Fair?

I urge you to refrain from rude or harsh replies.

If I am harsh or rude, please let me know. I will do my best to respect your view.

 

[stovebolts]

Twisting Scripture to prove a predetermined point doesn't mean much to those of us who know the Bible.

Let's be respectful where others are at. This type of language is arrogant and fosters division. Many other forums allow this type of language, but as a general rule it goes against our community message.

Most of us have been guilty of arrogance but we have learned it's not how God wants us to be. We are capable of co-existing as brothers and sisters without feeling we need to tear apart and devour our brother.

Grace and peace.
JLB , for_his_glory

 

[JLB]

Baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is clearly not water baptism. Name does not mean water.

I urge you to refrain from rude or harsh replies.

Welcome brother, to the community.

No one is intending anything rude or harsh.

Let’s be respectful even while disagreeing. Please.

We want to get to know you, and benefit from the gifts and ministry God has blessed you with.


Please be patient with us as we try to understand the points you are wanting to make.


Thanks and God bless.



JLB

 

[Doug Brents]

I guess there's no convincing you about what the Bible says about the several types of baptism. Twisting Scripture to prove a predetermined point doesn't mean much to those of us who know the Bible.

Please don't take any of what I am saying as an attack on you personally. This is not about your or me, but about finding the truth in the Word of God. Please, let us explore the Word together and find what It say, so that we will both be uplifted. Let us both leave our preconceptions behind and let the Word of God tell us what is right.

There are many types of immersion spoken of in Scripture. In the OT, there were many commandments to immerse something for ceremonial cleanliness. But we are not under the OT.
In the NT, there was the immersion of the Holy Spirit in the form of tongues of fire. But this only occurred twice in all of history. First on Pentecost with the coming of the Church to the Jews. The only other time was at the preaching of the Gospel and the coming of the Church to the first Gentile converts (Cornelius and family). This form of immersion has not happened since this time. It is not the NT immersion spoken of in Eph 4:5. Eph 4:4-6 says, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one immersion; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Water immersion is the only immersion mentioned in any of the other cases of conversion in the NT. The Ethiopian Eunuch, "Look, here is water. What hinders me from being immersed." Saul in Acts 22:16, "What are you waiting for. Arise and be immersed and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Then, as I pointed out before, there are passages like 1 Pet 3:21 and Eph 5:25-27 which both tell us that it is in water immersion that we are made perfect in God's sight.

You believe there is only one God? There is only one Lord? Then why do you believe, contrary to this passage, that there are more than one immersion?

 

[JLB]

You believe there is only one God? There is only one Lord? Then why do you believe, contrary to this passage, that there are more than one immersion?

Because the scriptures teach us there are three distinct baptisms that make the one baptism, just as there three that make the one God.

Three distinct and different baptisms, that are ministered by three different baptizers.


Can we discuss this and examine the scriptures that teach this truth?


Why would you think being empowered with the baptism of the Holy Spirit was just for a few isolated individuals, and not for all the Church, and for as many as the Lord calls?

Every single person needs the baptism with the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Anyone who "believes" will obey God's command (if they don't obey, they don't believe). Acts 5:32 says that it is those who obey who receive the Holy Spirit (Who is gifted to those who are saved). Notice the wording. Only those who have obeyed receive the Spirit. Obedience is set as a condition upon which the Spirit is received, not the Spirit causing obedience.

Those who obey the Gospel, are born again, in which they are baptized by the Spirit into Christ.

This takes place apart from water baptism.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

• having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God

We are born again of the Spirit, through the hearing of faith, not through water baptism.


This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:2


JLB

 

[Doug Brents]

Because the scriptures teach us there are three distinct baptisms that make the one baptism, just as there three that make the one God.

Three distinct and different baptisms, that are ministered by three different baptizers.


Can we discuss this and examine the scriptures that teach this truth?


Why would you think being empowered with the baptism of the Holy Spirit was just for a few isolated individuals, and not for all the Church, and for as many as the Lord calls?

Every single person needs the baptism with the Holy Spirit.



JLB

I do not think that only a few isolated individuals are blessed with the Holy Spirit.
The gift of the Holy Spirit (indwelling) (which every follower of Christ receives) is very different from the immersion of the Holy Spirit in fire (which only happened twice). The indwelling of the Spirit always follows (or occurs simultaneously with) immersion in water.

 

[Doug Brents]

Those who obey the Gospel, are born again, in which they are baptized by the Spirit into Christ.

This takes place apart from water baptism.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

• having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God

We are born again of the Spirit, through the hearing of faith, not through water baptism.


This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:2


JLB

Not true at all. The indwelling of the Spirit always follows or occurs simultaneously with water immersion. The Spirit takes action during water immersion to remove our sins (Col 2:11-15) and to unite us with Christ (Rom 6:1-6). We are born again by the Spirit through the actions of faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, and faith is the conduit through which we receive grace.

A better understanding of Gal 3:2, in light of Rom 10:17, would be or by the hearing which produces faith.

 

[JLB]

Not true at all. The indwelling of the Spirit always follows or occurs simultaneously with water immersion.

Water baptism comes after a person is saved by believing the Gospel in which they are born of the Spirit.


Spiritual birth takes place by the Spirit, not by natural water.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not true at all. The indwelling of the Spirit always follows or occurs simultaneously with water immersion. The Spirit takes action during water immersion to remove our sins (Col 2:11-15) and to unite us with Christ (Rom 6:1-6). We are born again by the Spirit through the actions of faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, and faith is the conduit through which we receive grace.

A better understanding of Gal 3:2, in light of Rom 10:17, would be or by the hearing which produces faith.

We are saved, born again, born of the Spirit, through hearing and believing (obeying) the Gospel message.


But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Romans 10:8-13

• with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

There never was a time, under the NT, "before we knew about baptism [immersion]". Immersion was established as the point at which salvation occurred when Jesus commanded it so just before His ascension into Heaven (Mark 16:16). It was preached as the point at which sins are forgiven in the first sermon in the newly born Kingdom on Pentecost (Acts 2:38). It has always (under the NT) been the point at which salvation occurred. Under the OT, it was not part of the Law, but under the NT it has always been.

I wasn't speaking about the N.T.
Water baptism is all over the N.T.

I'm wondering if it was in the O.T. and how it came about.
I'm wondering why it became necessary in the N.T. at the time of Jesus.

 

[Doug Brents]

Water baptism comes after a person is saved by believing the Gospel in which they are born of the Spirit.

Spiritual birth takes place by the Spirit, not by natural water.

You are all over the map here. Yes, we are born of the Spirit. He is the one that does the work of removing our sins (Col 2:11, Rom 6:2-3), but this rebirth occurs during immersion in water (Col 2:12, Rom 6:4). Spiritual birth does take place by the Spirit, not BY water, but in water (1 Pet 3:18-21, Eph 5:26).

We are saved, born again, born of the Spirit, through hearing and believing (obeying) the Gospel message.

Yes, by "OBEYING" the Gospel. Not by giving it mental assent, but by doing what is commanded by God that HE says leads to salvation.

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Romans 10:8-13

• with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JLB

Yes, confession is made UNTO (toward) salvation, but it is not yet attained until we are immersed into Christ (as the passages above indicate.
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
How do we call on the name of the Lord? If just calling Him "Lord" doesn't necessarily mean that we are saved, how are we to call on His name to be saved? By DOING what HE commands.

Let me ask you a question, what does Eph 2:8-9 mean? Does it mean that there is no human action whatsoever that is required (or possible) that leads to salvation?

 

[Doug Brents]

I wasn't speaking about the N.T.
Water baptism is all over the N.T.

I'm wondering if it was in the O.T. and how it came about.
I'm wondering why it became necessary in the N.T. at the time of Jesus.

There are many laws (I am not familiar with them all seeing as I have not studied them intently, since we are not subject to them) in the OT that command ceremonial washing, dipping, etc (immersion). These immersions, some of which included just the vessels, and some of which commanded just the persons hands to be immersed, and other commanded the whole body to be immersed.

There is a conundrum in Scripture with regard to the word baptize. Baptizo is the Greek word that means to immerse. It was transliterated into English by the translators of the KJV. They had the practice of sprinkling instead of immersing, and if they faithfully translated the word to immerse, it would have shed light on their unBiblical practice. So they created a new English word "baptize" and gave it the definition they wanted to, to sprinkle. The OT which was not translated from Greek, doesn't contain the word "baptize" because, since we are no longer under the OT, it didn't matter if they dipped things, or immersed them. They could faithfully translate those words to immerse, and not shed light on their bad practice.

All that is said to show that the Law of Moses contains many references to immersion, that do not show up in a search for "baptize" because it is not in the language from which those Books are translated. Try searching dip, or immerse, or bathe, and you will have better luck in finding the references to which I refer.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are many laws (I am not familiar with them all seeing as I have not studied them intently, since we are not subject to them) in the OT that command ceremonial washing, dipping, etc (immersion). These immersions, some of which included just the vessels, and some of which commanded just the persons hands to be immersed, and other commanded the whole body to be immersed.

There is a conundrum in Scripture with regard to the word baptize. Baptizo is the Greek word that means to immerse. It was transliterated into English by the translators of the KJV. They had the practice of sprinkling instead of immersing, and if they faithfully translated the word to immerse, it would have shed light on their unBiblical practice. So they created a new English word "baptize" and gave it the definition they wanted to, to sprinkle. The OT which was not translated from Greek, doesn't contain the word "baptize" because, since we are no longer under the OT, it didn't matter if they dipped things, or immersed them. They could faithfully translate those words to immerse, and not shed light on their bad practice.

All that is said to show that the Law of Moses contains many references to immersion, that do not show up in a search for "baptize" because it is not in the language from which those Books are translated. Try searching dip, or immerse, or bathe, and you will have better luck in finding the references to which I refer.

Thanks for the reply Doug....
I know the word baptize is not in the O.T.

Some will speak of the Red Sea as being a type of baptism.

And, as you said, it's a type of washing....
washing away our sins...
dying in the water and coming up alive.

I think I'd like to study this and find out how this came to be accepted in the N.T.
It seems like a new method of preparing persons for Jesus,,,John was making the way for Christ.
At the baptism of Jesus, both God Father and God Holy Spirit were present with the Son.
Some believe this is when Jesus was adopted as the Son by God Father...I don't believe t his..I believe, with mainline Christianity, that Jesus was born the Son of God.

Anyway, just some things to think about.

 

[JLB]

You are all over the map here. Yes, we are born of the Spirit. He is the one that does the work of removing our sins (Col 2:11, Rom 6:2-3), but this rebirth occurs during immersion in water

Brother that is absolutely not true, and this unbiblical teaching is responsible for many false conversions.

We are born again by the Holy Spirit when we hear and believe the Gospel.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9



We are not born again by being dunked in water.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, by "OBEYING" the Gospel. Not by giving it mental assent, but by doing what is commanded by God that HE says leads to salvation.

Obeying the Gospel command repent, means we confess Jesus as Lord.

Do you understand what repent means?

It means turn to God in submission to Him as your Lord.


Once a person believes and is saved, then they are baptized in water as a public confession of faith, whereby we identify with Christ in the “likeness” of His death and resurrection in that we are crucified to this world, and are alive to Christ publicly.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Do you understand what repent means?

It means turn to God in submission to Him as your Lord.

With respect, repenting generally has an action behind it. It's more than just a feeling. It's feeling and action combined.

In Romans 6, we see this picture of a dead man going into the waters and being raised as a new man in Christ. It's a picture of rebirth.

While I do not view Baptism as a line in the sand that denotes the point of salvation, I do view it as a commitment to God. God has already committed himself to us, and we see this clearly through the cross. God showed us his commitment toward us through Jesus.

 

[JLB]

With respect, repenting generally has an action behind it. It's more than just a feeling. It's feeling and action combined.

Yes. The action of faith that James says saves.

Confessing with our mouth, Jesus as Lord is this very action by which we are saved.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You are all over the map here. Yes, we are born of the Spirit. He is the one that does the work of removing our sins (Col 2:11, Rom 6:2-3), but this rebirth occurs during immersion in water (Col 2:12, Rom 6:4). Spiritual birth does take place by the Spirit, not BY water, but in water (1 Pet 3:18-21, Eph 5:26).



Yes, by "OBEYING" the Gospel. Not by giving it mental assent, but by doing what is commanded by God that HE says leads to salvation.


Yes, confession is made UNTO (toward) salvation, but it is not yet attained until we are immersed into Christ (as the passages above indicate.
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
How do we call on the name of the Lord? If just calling Him "Lord" doesn't necessarily mean that we are saved, how are we to call on His name to be saved? By DOING what HE commands.

Let me ask you a question, what does Eph 2:8-9 mean? Does it mean that there is no human action whatsoever that is required (or possible) that leads to salvation?

I don't understand why you're asking the last question on your post since I, sadly, haven't been following along,,,

But I know JLB believes there is ACTION after REPENTANCE.
Otherwise, repentance would be of no value --- if we just kept living our life as before. This would mean there was no repentance...no turning from our ways to a the new way of God.

As to immersion of infants....

There should be no such practice.

Baptism of the water prepares us for Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
John the Baptist said that HE baptized with WATER, but there was one coming after him that would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3:11

Jesus said to wait in Jerusalem....
Because POWER would come upon us when the Holy Spirit came.
Acts 1:8

So, we are saved when we believe.
Then we follow the Lord's commandment and get water baptized.
We are also empowered by the Holy Spirit,,,,either at baptism, or at some time
after when we are ready to accept the Holy Spirit and our new way of life.