Infant Immersion

[JohnDB]

i think there are many things lost in function . we limit the power of God due to thus saith the denom headquarters rule book of how to

That's like saying that man can thwart God's plans.

Jacob and his wives is a perfect example. They were performing all kinds of talisman junk worship of other gods for "good results" from the real God that they wanted. And God honored it anyway.
The household gods, the stripped branches, the mandrake roots and etc. None of this is in Judaism...but it worked because God's plan was for Jacob to have a huge family that was wealthy.

Only God is omnipotent. He does as He wants When He wants and HOW He wants.

Do stripped branches increase goat fertility?
No
Do mandrake roots increase human fertility?
No
None of this stuff is part of any ceremony in Judaism. But God blessed them for it.

A Baptism is a ceremonial ordinance... only God determines who does and who doesn't get access to Heaven. Not any church sanctioned and approved person who may or may not baptize someone.

 

[WIP]

My point is that "little children' refers to those disciples that have a child like faith and not to small infants, small children.

I'm not seeing that in that passage. I see it as referring to little children as it states. I don't understand how you are seeing this passage as describing adults as "little children." I believe you are imparting your own theology into the text.

Sorry, I'm just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm not seeing that in that passage. I see it as referring to little children as it states. I don't understand how you are seeing this passage as describing adults as "little children." I believe you are imparting your own theology into the text.

Sorry, I'm just going to have to agree to disagree.

I am far from the only person that sees "little children" in the context refers to disciples with child like faith, a spiritual child. That is a reason why I included two commentaries that say what I am saying. Infants and small children do not have the reasoning skills, comprehension skills required to have faith.

Matt 18:
--Jesus compares disciples "like children" v3
--receiving a disciple is like receiving Jesus v5 (see also Matt 10:40)
--warns about causing a disciple to sin , v6ff (infants, small child unable to sin)
--instructs about a disciple/brother that will not repent v15ff
--how to treat disciples that do repent v21ff

Clearly to me the context is not about infants/small children but disciples as spiritual child.

Mark 10:13-16 is Mark's account. After blessing the children the rich young ruler comes to Jesus but leaves in sorrow not willing to do what Christ told him to. Jesus then says "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!" Mk 10:23. Then we are told verse 24 "And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!"

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It could also be that Christ in Matt 18 context is talking about those who had just newly become Christians, Peter refers to them as "newborn babes" 1 Pet 2:2.

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Matt 18:14 "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." Infants/small children have no sin, they are innocent before God and if one dies as an infant he will not perish (apollymi) but will be saved.
This means that "little children" here must refer to disciples that are capable of having faith but becoming lost as a sheep vs12-13. (A good knock against the forbidden forum topic.)

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If Matt 18:3-6 is taken literally does that mean only "little children" (age wise) can enter the kingdom but not adults?

 

[LovethroughDove]

Immersion of an infant does nothing other than get the infant wet, and possibly angry.

Jesus ~ Matthew 18:2-3 He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Looks like his baptism turns us into children. And we want to impose our baptism onto children. The irony.

 

[Doug Brents]

But then you're saying that it's the water that saves.

Two questions:

What does John 3:5 refer to when speaking of water?

If I become a believer today, and die next week and have not been baptized...
what is my fate?

No, it is not the water that saves. It is the Spirit that saves, by the power of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, in the water. Big difference.

John 3:5 is an allusion to water immersion and the Spirit that does the work in the immersion.

If the person to whom you refer were my student and disciple of Jesus, then they would be immersed immediately upon confession of their belief just as exampled in Acts (that same hour of the night, immediately, that same hour, etc.). There is never any delay between belief and immersion. Now, there was frequently time between preaching and belief, but never between a confession of belief and immersion.

 

[Doug Brents]

i go by justification declared righteous /not guilty just as if we had never sinned. my only part on baptism is it has no saving power. redemption comes through Christ . i have had many discussions on this. Baptism i see as symbolic but yet sacred growing i can remember my bro and his wife wanted to be baptized. the preacher put on a pair of waders that came to his chest. it was almost a mockery as he was not serious...i was raised in the UMC .they did more sprinkling than immersion , at some point later they decided to get baptized again in a more serious righteous time frame. , symbolic in obedience following christ a public declaration and symbolic of the old man going under and the new man coming up. . i see baptism as sacred same as communion

You see? You see? It doesn't matter what you see. It matters what God wrote in His Word. He didn't say that immersion was a symbolic event that can be done (or not done) at your whim. Jesus Himself said, "He who believes and is immersed will be saved."

It does not make a mockery of immersion for the minister to put on waders so he doesn't get wet himself. What matters is the heart condition of the person coming to be immersed.

 

[Doug Brents]

If I become a believer today, and die next week and have not been baptized...
what is my fate?

Sorry, I failed to finish my answer to your question. If someone were to come to belief today and fail to be immersed into Christ, and were to die next week, his fate would be the same as if he had never heard the Gospel. He would hear the Lord say on that fateful day, "I never knew you."

 

[Doug Brents]

But they are still baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Is more needed once they believe?

A person is commanded to hear, then believe, then confess (and then be immersed). Immersion cannot come years before belief. The person just got wet in that case.

 

[Doug Brents]

Where does the Bible specifically teach that immersion always happens after all those other things you mentioned?

Rom 6:1-6, and Col 2:11-15 specifically state that it is in immersion that the Spirit does the work of removing our sins and adding us to the Church.

Any other thing that Scripture says leads to salvation must occur before that immersion. There are examples (Acts 22:16 being one but many others) of immersion being commanded "calling on the name of the Lord" (confession, and also it being done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm convinced that baptism is for adult believers. I also had a conversation with a Lutheran theologian who explained their position. I can see where they are coming from. I still don't agree, neither will I seek to burn him at the stake as a heretic. Division is a great curse in the Body of Christ. Surely we can agree to disagree?

On "non-salvation issues" I believe that we can disagree and both of us be right (for ourselves). The example given in Scripture of eating meat sacrificed to idols. I see the idol as nothing so can eat the meat like any other meat. But another sees the idol as something to be avoided, so he avoids the meat also. Both of us are right in what we do. But for him to eat would be sin. And for me to eat in such a way that it causes him to eat and sin would be sinful also.

But in terms of salvation issues, there is only one "right". There is but one way to come to God, and that is through Jesus, and there is only one way to come through Jesus, and that is by what is commanded in Scripture.

 

[WIP]

Rom 6:1-6, and Col 2:11-15 specifically state that it is in immersion that the Spirit does the work of removing our sins and adding us to the Church.

Any other thing that Scripture says leads to salvation must occur before that immersion. There are examples (Acts 22:16 being one but many others) of immersion being commanded "calling on the name of the Lord" (confession, and also it being done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Again, these Scripture references do not specifically state that baptism must occur after belief. There are other references to whole families being baptized, not just those above a certain age or those who believe. The Bible does not make a distinction in those cases.

 

[Doug Brents]

I agreed with you right up to the last sentence. Acts 10:47 contradicts your statement.

Ah, but it does not. This was a very special case that has not been repeated since, in the last 2000 years. The spirit of God came down on Cornelius and his family not as a sign of their salvation, but of their acceptability to God for the Kingdom. This is born out when you look over at chapter 11. The message was to the Jews, and they got the message.

 

[Doug Brents]

The prayers offered are to the Lord. How do you know Jesus does nothing?
Jesus "blessed" the children brought to Him despite the objections of the disciples.

One day some parents brought their children to Jesus so he could touch and bless them. But the disciples scolded the parents for bothering him.

When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” And he took the children in his arms, placed his hands on them and blessed them.

I don't think you have the right to object. Besides the baptism is a beginning. I was baptized as a infant. To this day I call Jesus Lord and I now have white hair.

You call Jesus Lord, but does He know you? Matt 7:23 says there will be many who call Jesus Lord at Judgement, but He will say, "I never knew you." Being immersed as a child is a waste of time, because you cannot understand the Word, you cannot confess Christ, etc. All of those things must precede immersion, because all of those things are said to lead to salvation, and salvation occurs during immersion. If you have not done the things that lead to salvation, then you will not be saved.

 

[Doug Brents]

I disagree. The gifts of belief and grace that come through baptism are an act of God and not man. Yes, we may go through the motion of baptizing with water but it is God that imparts the gifts. We don't baptize to please God. We baptize at all stages of life including infancy through adulthood because God tells us to. Beyond that, it is in His hands.

Here's Luther's explanation from his small Catechism. This is what I believe to be true.

Luther’s Small Catechism by Dr. Martin Luther

Martin Luther addresses faithful and godly pastors and preachers in his Preface to the Small Catechism.

catechism.cph.org

Wait, wait, wait!!!!! Belief is a gift that comes through immersion? How is that again? Please show me where you got this idea from, because I find exactly the opposite in Scripture.

 

[Doug Brents]

Again, these Scripture references do not specifically state that baptism must occur after belief. There are other references to whole families being baptized, not just those above a certain age or those who believe. The Bible does not make a distinction in those cases.

Eph 2:8-9, we are saved by grace through faith. Can an infant exhibit faith?

 

[WIP]

Eph 2:8-9, we are saved by grace through faith. Can an infant exhibit faith?

We are saved by grace through faith. What part of that includes baptism after the fact?

 

[WIP]

Wait, wait, wait!!!!! Belief is a gift that comes through immersion?

No! It is a gift of God by His grace. There is nothing we can do to force His hand to give us His grace. It's all Him.

 

[WIP]

Rom 6:1-6, and Col 2:11-15 specifically state that it is in immersion that the Spirit does the work of removing our sins and adding us to the Church.

Any other thing that Scripture says leads to salvation must occur before that immersion. There are examples (Acts 22:16 being one but many others) of immersion being commanded "calling on the name of the Lord" (confession, and also it being done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

I don't see immersion even referenced in either of those texts you referenced. In fact, I wonder what baptism is really being spoken of...water baptism or baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Randy]

You call Jesus Lord, but does He know you? Matt 7:23 says there will be many who call Jesus Lord at Judgement, but He will say, "I never knew you." Being immersed as a child is a waste of time, because you cannot understand the Word, you cannot confess Christ, etc. All of those things must precede immersion, because all of those things are said to lead to salvation, and salvation occurs during immersion. If you have not done the things that lead to salvation, then you will not be saved.

As I stated prayers are also offered to the Lord by the church. You consider that act a waste of time? How do you know Jesus does nothing? I would state Jesus knows me well. As I also stated the baptism was just a beginning. The teaching and raising up in the Lord follows. I see the act as a parent asking the Lord to bless their child.

I think the Holy Spirit was around (outward) before "I" asked for the gift (inward). I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I was sanctified by my faith in Jesus. I have loved and believed in Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I was baptized as a infant. I will not be baptized again regardless of what others think that the baptism I had was meaningless. And again I don't think you have the right to state it was meaningless.

 

[Doug Brents]

We are saved by grace through faith. What part of that includes baptism after the fact?

What is faith? Reading Heb 11, and James 2, we get a very clear picture of what Faith is, and what it is not. Faith is belief in action. As James says, actions are the soul that gives life to faith. Without action that backs up the belief, faith is dead. And as Eph 2 says, salvation is a gift of grace that we receive through faith. So then, faith, and the actions that give it life, must precede the reception of grace, and thus, salvation.

And we see in numerous places, that immersion (baptism) is commanded as an action that leads to salvation (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and others). So that makes immersion part of the commanded faith, that leads to salvation.