Infant Immersion

[GodsGrace]

No, they didn't believe that we would stop sinning after we are saved. That teaching is directly contradicted by a large amount of Paul's teaching.

As for the people who lived from Adam to Pentecost, they were under the OT, and subject to a different set of commands. When the perfect came, the imperfect was eliminated. As Jesus said, not one jot or tittle will be done away with until all is accomplished. Then on the cross He said, "It is finished." He had fulfilled the Law, and so it was canceled in favor of the NT. No, none of the people in Abraham's Bossom were immersed, because that was not a commandment during the OT, but it is in the NT.

Well then a huge amount of Christians went straight to hell after death because many waited to be on their death bed to be baptized so all their sins would be forgiven.

Baptism was for the forgiveness of sin.

You could check this out....no need to trust me.

 

[jerry63935]

Baptism was for the forgiveness of sin.

see the wording i disagree with Justification is by faith by the Blood by Grace

Romans 3:24 Romans 3:28 Romans 5:9
Justification
a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Rom. 5:1-10).

just as if we had never sinned

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well then a huge amount of Christians went straight to hell after death because many waited to be on their death bed to be baptized so all their sins would be forgiven.

Baptism was for the forgiveness of sin.

You could check this out....no need to trust me.

There is no such thing in the NT as an 'unbaptized Christian" nor deathbed salvation.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Can the sarcasm!

Yes. There is a lot you can unpack out out of just a few verses. And my comments were supported and moderated by other passages like Rom 6:1-6, Col 2:11-15, Eph 5:25-27 and others.

Can the sarcasm you say.
You don't sound like a happy person to me.
All you seem to want to do is slam Bible verses down everyone's throat.
Where is the love in that?
Can you remember the last time you actually smiled at someone?
Or is that not biblical either?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

An erroneous interpretation. 1 Pet 3:21 doesn't say that we are not saved by immersion. "There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," The verse prior says that Noah and his family were saved through the water of the Flood. And that is an example of what now saves us. This passage is contrasting NT immersion with the Law (of Moses) said immersions that were to remove outward (fleshly) filth to "cleanse" a person, ie: the washing of hands, feet, dishes, etc. In contrast, NT immersion is not for the cleansing of fleshly filth from the body (outwardly), but the cleansing done by the Holy Spirit to our soul (inwardly).

These verses 20-21 say that Noah was saved through the water and it symbolized us being saved through the water.
Noah was not immersed into the water and neither does it say we need to be immersed in the water.
The New Testament comparison with the Old Testament does not include immersion.
Now when you finish crying, let's hear your make believe rebuttal.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

There is no such thing in the NT as an 'unbaptized Christian" nor deathbed salvation.

I was unbaptized for 6 months after I got saved.
And if I died in that time, I would feel no need for any deathbed salvation, because I knew in my heart I was already saved.
How does that fit in with your scheme of things?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I was unbaptized for 6 months after I got saved.
And if I died in that time, I would feel no need for any deathbed salvation, because I knew in my heart I was already saved.
How does that fit in with your scheme of things?

God has chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves, Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; Rom 6:3-5; Gal 3:27; 1 Pet 3:21; etc. So it's not possible for one to be saved until one willingly submits to God in water baptism where then God removes the body of sin. This is why there is no "unbaptized Christian".

Nor does the NT gospel teach deathbed salvation. That is another invention of man as 'faith only'.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well then a huge amount of Christians went straight to hell after death because many waited to be on their death bed to be baptized so all their sins would be forgiven.

Baptism was for the forgiveness of sin.

You could check this out....no need to trust me.

Immersion (baptism) is for the initial forgiveness of sins under the NT. But as 1 John 1:7-9 says, we are continually cleansed from all sin after immersion if remain "in the Light" and confess our sins to God.

And yes, I do believe that there are a vast number who heard the Gospel, believed it, but failed to act upon it, and are bound for Hell (Christ never knew them).

 

[Doug Brents]

Can the sarcasm you say.
You don't sound like a happy person to me.
All you seem to want to do is slam Bible verses down everyone's throat.
Where is the love in that?
Can you remember the last time you actually smiled at someone?
Or is that not biblical either?

LOL, there is a huge difference between happy and joy. I am very happy most of the time, and I smile almost incessantly. When my, now, late wife was suffering through cancer for 7 years, was I happy? No. I didn't enjoy seeing her suffer, and waste away. My happiness was diminished during those years, but...

... I am ALWAYS joyful, because the Lord is my shepherd, and He rescued me from sin when I was immersed into His death many years ago.

 

[Doug Brents]

These verses 20-21 say that Noah was saved through the water and it symbolized us being saved through the water.
Noah was not immersed into the water and neither does it say we need to be immersed in the water.
The New Testament comparison with the Old Testament does not include immersion.
Now when you finish crying, let's hear your make believe rebuttal.

There is nothing to cry about. Your answer is one I have heard a few times before. It stems from an improper understanding due to damage done by the translators of the KJV.

Yes, 1 Pet 3 does talk about immersion in water. "There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism...." "Baptism" is just a transliteration of the Greek word baptizo, which literally means immersion. The translators didn't want to expose their own false teaching (they sprinkled and poured), so when they got to this word, they created the Anglicized Greek word "Baptize" and defined it as sprinkling or pouring. But the word in the original means immersion. And the previous verse, talking about water, means that after immersion we can add the words "in water". So in reality, the verse says, "There is also an antitype which now saves us—immersion [in water]...".

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

God has chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves, Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; Rom 6:3-5; Gal 3:27; 1 Pet 3:21; etc. So it's not possible for one to be saved until one willingly submits to God in water baptism where then God removes the body of sin. This is why there is no "unbaptized Christian".

Nor does the NT gospel teach deathbed salvation. That is another invention of man as 'faith only'.

Addendum to my last post:

...even if a person thinks water baptism does not save, water baptism has been commanded by God. Therefore being water baptized is a necessity in obeying God and that command alone makes water baptism a necessity to being saved.

For how can one become a Christian/become saved while disobeying, rebelling against God's command to be water baptized? If one can rebel and refuse to obey God in being water baptized and yet still be saved then it would be just as true one can rebel and disobey God's command to believe yet still be saved.

If one argues one must obedient in believing to be saved but one does not have to be obedient in being water baptized then that person's 'faith only" bias is clearly showing to me. They are not being consistent in pushing Luther's faith only philosophy in claiming that obeying one command (believing) is necessary to being saved but obeying another command (water baptism) of God is not necessary to being saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

see the wording i disagree with Justification is by faith by the Blood by Grace

Romans 3:24 Romans 3:28 Romans 5:9
Justification
a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Rom. 5:1-10).

just as if we had never sinned

Just as if we'd never sinned.
Sounds like you go to a Nazarene church.

I was talking about the years after the Apostles had died and what was believed at that time.
I'm not talking about what the N.T. says...but they did base this on the N.T.

It does state that the water washes us clean.
1 Corinthians 6:11

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no such thing in the NT as an 'unbaptized Christian" nor deathbed salvation.

Check out the history of the early church.
Don't take my word for it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Immersion (baptism) is for the initial forgiveness of sins under the NT. But as 1 John 1:7-9 says, we are continually cleansed from all sin after immersion if remain "in the Light" and confess our sins to God.

And yes, I do believe that there are a vast number who heard the Gospel, believed it, but failed to act upon it, and are bound for Hell (Christ never knew them).

I do believe I agree with both statements.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

There is nothing to cry about. Your answer is one I have heard a few times before. It stems from an improper understanding due to damage done by the translators of the KJV.

Yes, 1 Pet 3 does talk about immersion in water. "There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism...." "Baptism" is just a transliteration of the Greek word baptizo, which literally means immersion. The translators didn't want to expose their own false teaching (they sprinkled and poured), so when they got to this word, they created the Anglicized Greek word "Baptize" and defined it as sprinkling or pouring. But the word in the original means immersion. And the previous verse, talking about water, means that after immersion we can add the words "in water". So in reality, the verse says, "There is also an antitype which now saves us—immersion [in water]...".

I've been hearing that for years
It just doesn't pan out.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Addendum to my last post:

...even if a person thinks water baptism does not save, water baptism has been commanded by God. Therefore being water baptized is a necessity in obeying God and that command alone makes water baptism a necessity to being saved.

For how can one become a Christian/become saved while disobeying, rebelling against God's command to be water baptized? If one can rebel and refuse to obey God in being water baptized and yet still be saved then it would be just as true one can rebel and disobey God's command to believe yet still be saved.

If one argues one must obedient in believing to be saved but one does not have to be obedient in being water baptized then that person's 'faith only" bias is clearly showing to me. They are not being consistent in pushing Luther's faith only philosophy in claiming that obeying one command (believing) is necessary to being saved but obeying another command (water baptism) of God is not necessary to being saved.

False
You are assuming all people who are saved are saved through the Bible.
Your premise is that without knowledge of the Bible, one cannot be saved.
Show me where it says that in the Bible.

 

[jerry63935]

Just as if we'd never sinned.
Sounds like you go to a Nazarene church.

I was talking about the years after the Apostles had died and what was believed at that time.
I'm not talking about what the N.T. says...but they did base this on the N.T.

It does state that the water washes us clean.
1 Corinthians 6:11

nope not nazarene church do you know the teaching of justification ? declared righteous / not guilty/ just as if we had never sinned/ when we get saved by grace. we become a new creation in Christ 2nd corinthians 5:17 verse 21 tells he became a sin sacrifice so we could become the righteousness of Christ . no amount of water takes sin away. the very moment we are saved our sins are forgiven and cast into the sea of forgetfulness . if water baptism washed sins away. it would be saved by works . water baptism is symbolic like communion. yet should be treated sacred

 

[jerry63935]

It just doesn't pan out.

why not baptism is by immersion if we follow Christ steps
Matthew 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:16 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
16 When Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water. The heavens suddenly opened for him,[a] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming down on him.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

why not baptism is by immersion if we follow Christ steps
Matthew 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:16 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
16 When Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water. The heavens suddenly opened for him,[a] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming down on him.

Is that when Jesus got saved?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

God has chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves, Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; Rom 6:3-5; Gal 3:27; 1 Pet 3:21; etc. So it's not possible for one to be saved until one willingly submits to God in water baptism where then God removes the body of sin. This is why there is no "unbaptized Christian".

Nor does the NT gospel teach deathbed salvation. That is another invention of man as 'faith only'.

You are a judgmental legalist.
I believe your type ends up in limbo.