Infant Immersion

[Doug Brents]

so when do we get this grace and mercy ? and what is Grace what is mercy and if water baptism saves us.. then we dont need grace and mercy

This statement is either intended to by funny, or it shows a complete lack of understanding of what grace and mercy are.

Mercy, simply stated, is not giving a punishment that is deserved.
Grace is giving a benefit that is undeserved.
There is nothing in either of these that precludes conditions placed on them by the giver. For instance, in the courts in America, it is frequently the case the "first offenders" will be shown mercy "as long as they do not repeat the offense". If they repeat the offense, then they receive the punishment for the second crime as well as a reinstated punishment for the first crime. So the mercy is conditional upon future good behavior.

Similarly, in probate court, it is frequent that a will contains conditions that must be met to receive the inheritance specified in the will. Frequently, if you are not present at the reading of the will, you forfeit the benefit you would have received. Does being present "earn" the inheritance? No, but it does qualify you to receive it. In the book, "The Ultimate Gift" (I highly recommend it if you have never read it), the actions taken by the young man don't "earn" the inheritance that his great uncle left him (if he fulfilled all the requirements laid out in the video will), but they did help him grow into the man who was able to appreciate the inheritance he ultimately would receive.

The same holds true for grace in Christ. God put conditions upon our reception of grace. Believe in Christ. Confess His Name verbally and publicly. Repent of our sins, thus living by His commandments for the rest of our life. And being immersed (in water) into Christ for the remission of our sins, and to be added to the Body of Christ.
Without the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, immersion would be meaningless. There would be no mercy for sinners. All would be equally condemned. But because of His death, we have the opportunity to be forgiven.

I have already enumerated the passages that command these steps. Each of them clearly states that these actions lead to salvation. There is no ambiguity in any of those passages that leaves any room for misinterpretation unless a person willfully chooses to twist them. "He who believes and is immersed will be saved." Too easy to understand. "Repent and be immersed for the forgiveness of your sins." Again, too easy. "Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Christ Jesus were immersed into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through immersion into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." If you have not been immersed into His death, have you been united with it? And if you have not been united with His death, how can you expect to be united with His resurrection? These are too easy to understand, and required great difficulty to twist into "faith only".

 

[jerry63935]

If you have not been immersed into His death, have you been united with it? And if you have not been united with His death, how can you expect to be united with His resurrection?

the night i got saved .pretty simple no amount of water forgives my sin

 

[Doug Brents]

the night i got saved .pretty simple no amount of water forgives my sin

As I have said before, the water does not remove your sins. The Holy Spirit does that, by the power of Jesus' Blood, in the water. Scripture is very clear that you don't "get saved" before you are immersed in water while calling on Jesus' Name. You may not want to see it. You may not want to admit it. But that doesn't change the fact that God set immersion as a condition upon which our salvation is received.

 

[jerry63935]

But that doesn't change the fact that God set immersion as a condition upon which our salvation is received.

then by all means hold on to water based salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

then by all means hold on to water based salvation.

By your statement, I take it that you refuse to accept the mandate of your Lord and Master. If so, then that would negate the idea of Him being your Lord and Master (one is not the servant of one whom he does not obey).

 

[jerry63935]

By your statement, I take it that you refuse to accept the mandate of your Lord and Master. If so, then that would negate the idea of Him being your Lord and Master (one is not the servant of one whom he does not obey).

you can take it how you like or want and you can twist my words to say i refuse to accept the mandate of your Lord and Master i dont answer to you

 

[jaybo]

As I have said before, the water does not remove your sins. The Holy Spirit does that, by the power of Jesus' Blood, in the water. Scripture is very clear that you don't "get saved" before you are immersed in water while calling on Jesus' Name. You may not want to see it. You may not want to admit it. But that doesn't change the fact that God set immersion as a condition upon which our salvation is received.

Where in the Bible does it state that "God set immersion as a condition upon which our salvation is received"?

My Bible clearly says... " But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith that we preach), because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Romans 10:8-13

 

[Doug Brents]

Where in the Bible does it state that "God set immersion as a condition upon which our salvation is received"?

My Bible clearly says... " But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith that we preach), because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Romans 10:8-13

True, and does it also say, "He who believes and is immersed (baptized) will be saved."? (Mark 16:16) Does it also says, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38) Or how about, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)

All three of these set immersion as a condition upon which salvation (the forgiveness of sin) is received. Further, Rom 6:1-6 and Col 2:11-15 describe the removal of our sins and our union with Christ as occurring DURING immersion. If it occurs during immersion, then it could not have occurred before immersion (for instance, when we believed).

Anyone who "believes" will obey God's command (if they don't obey, they don't believe). Acts 5:32 says that it is those who obey who receive the Holy Spirit (Who is gifted to those who are saved). Notice the wording. Only those who have obeyed receive the Spirit. Obedience is set as a condition upon which the Spirit is received, not the Spirit causing obedience.

 

[jaybo]

True, and does it also say, "He who believes and is immersed (baptized) will be saved."? (Mark 16:16) Does it also says, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38) Or how about, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)

All three of these set immersion as a condition upon which salvation (the forgiveness of sin) is received. Further, Rom 6:1-6 and Col 2:11-15 describe the removal of our sins and our union with Christ as occurring DURING immersion. If it occurs during immersion, then it could not have occurred before immersion (for instance, when we believed).

Anyone who "believes" will obey God's command (if they don't obey, they don't believe). Acts 5:32 says that it is those who obey who receive the Holy Spirit (Who is gifted to those who are saved). Notice the wording. Only those who have obeyed receive the Spirit. Obedience is set as a condition upon which the Spirit is received, not the Spirit causing obedience.

Mark 16:16, "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned." Notice that baptism is dropped from the second phrase.

Acts 2:38, " Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Notice that this is baptized into the name of Jesus Christ, not water.

You wrote, "all three of these set immersion as a condition upon which salvation (the forgiveness of sin) is received." That simply isn't the case, even though your taking verses out of context try to prove your point. Logically it makes no sense, as there are times when water immersion isn't possible before one's death, such as a deathbed conversion.

I realize their is no convincing you of the truth, so I'll let you go on with your extremely flawed exegesis -- with one last quote: " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not condemned." John 3:16-18 There is nothing about baptism here -- case proven!

 

[Doug Brents]

Mark 16:16, "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned." Notice that baptism is dropped from the second phrase.

It is irrelevant that immersion is dropped from the second phrase. If you tell your child, "If you eat your meat and your veggies you will get cake." If they eat their meat but not the veggies, do they get cake? NO. If a person does not believe then they will not be immersed, and if they do go through the motions the only result is that they get wet, because they were not immersed "into Christ" as Rom 6 says we must be.

Acts 2:38, " Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Notice that this is baptized into the name of Jesus Christ, not water.

There is a difference between being immersed in something and being immersed into something. We are immersed in water, but into Christ.

You wrote, "all three of these set immersion as a condition upon which salvation (the forgiveness of sin) is received." That simply isn't the case, even though your taking verses out of context try to prove your point. Logically it makes no sense, as there are times when water immersion isn't possible before one's death, such as a deathbed conversion.

Water immersion is always possible, even if it takes a little extra doing to make it happen. And the fact that a person waits until they are dying before they try to give their life (what's left of it) to God is no excuse. Rom 1:20 says that no one has an excuse for not loving, obeying, and putting God first in their life, because the very air around each and every one of us screams that God is, and that He is the creator of all. So there is no excuse for sin, and every one of us has sinned, and every one of us must obey Christ for He is the only door back into relationship with the Father, and He commands that immersion is the way to do that.

I realize their is no convincing you of the truth, so I'll let you go on with your extremely flawed exegesis -- with one last quote: " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not condemned." John 3:16-18 There is nothing about baptism here -- case proven!

Correct, there is nothing about immersion in this particular verse (nor many others). But let me ask you, in what language was the charge against Jesus on the cross written? What was the exact wording of the charge? Who wrote the charge? Who placed the charge on the cross?
Matt 27:37 – “And they (the soldiers who crucified Christ) put up over His head the accusation written against Him:

THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.“​

Mark 15:26 – “And the inscription of His accusation was written above:

THE KING OF THE JEWS.”​

Luke 23:38 – “… an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:

THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”​

John 19:19 – “Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:

JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.​

Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.“

Can we take any single verse and build our doctrine upon it, or must we take every passage that refers to a certain subject and combine what we find in all of them into one complete picture before we arrive at our doctrine? We must take every possible passage into account! If we fail to leave even one passage that refers to the subject at hand from consideration, then we risk leaving out a crucial bit of information we may have needed to see the full picture.

That being said, when you search the entire NT, you find that there are 4 things that Scripture says lead to salvation (saved, forgiveness of sin, the gift of the Holy Spirit, being united with Christ, etc.). Those things are:
1. Belief of the Gospel, and Belief in Jesus
2. Repentance of sin
3. Confession of Jesus' name
4. Immersion in water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

​

 

[jaybo]

It is irrelevant that immersion is dropped from the second phrase. If you tell your child, "If you eat your meat and your veggies you will get cake." If they eat their meat but not the veggies, do they get cake? NO. If a person does not believe then they will not be immersed, and if they do go through the motions the only result is that they get wet, because they were not immersed "into Christ" as Rom 6 says we must be.



There is a difference between being immersed in something and being immersed into something. We are immersed in water, but into Christ.



Water immersion is always possible, even if it takes a little extra doing to make it happen. And the fact that a person waits until they are dying before they try to give their life (what's left of it) to God is no excuse. Rom 1:20 says that no one has an excuse for not loving, obeying, and putting God first in their life, because the very air around each and every one of us screams that God is, and that He is the creator of all. So there is no excuse for sin, and every one of us has sinned, and every one of us must obey Christ for He is the only door back into relationship with the Father, and He commands that immersion is the way to do that.



Correct, there is nothing about immersion in this particular verse (nor many others). But let me ask you, in what language was the charge against Jesus on the cross written? What was the exact wording of the charge? Who wrote the charge? Who placed the charge on the cross?
Matt 27:37 – “And they (the soldiers who crucified Christ) put up over His head the accusation written against Him:

THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.“​

Mark 15:26 – “And the inscription of His accusation was written above:

THE KING OF THE JEWS.”​

Luke 23:38 – “… an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:

THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”​

John 19:19 – “Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:

JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.​

Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.“

Can we take any single verse and build our doctrine upon it, or must we take every passage that refers to a certain subject and combine what we find in all of them into one complete picture before we arrive at our doctrine? We must take every possible passage into account! If we fail to leave even one passage that refers to the subject at hand from consideration, then we risk leaving out a crucial bit of information we may have needed to see the full picture.

That being said, when you search the entire NT, you find that there are 4 things that Scripture says lead to salvation (saved, forgiveness of sin, the gift of the Holy Spirit, being united with Christ, etc.). Those things are:
1. Belief of the Gospel, and Belief in Jesus
2. Repentance of sin
3. Confession of Jesus' name
4. Immersion in water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

​

I am not under law but under grace. Have a nice day (even if you're totally wrong).

 

[stovebolts]

I am not under law but under grace. Have a nice day (even if you're totally wrong).

With due respect, being under grace is not a free pass to disobedience and that has nothing to do with being under the Law.

Jesus gave us a New Covenant commandment which is to both love one another and to spread the Gospel, Baptize and make Deciples. None of these are considered "Law".

If we are commanded to Baptize, are we disobedient if we don't? Furthermore, are we disobedient when we teach Baptism is not a part of the Christian experience or is obsolete?

 

[Doug Brents]

I am not under law but under grace. Have a nice day (even if you're totally wrong).

Is there a difference between "given for free" and "freely given"?

 

[jaybo]

With due respect, being under grace is not a free pass to disobedience and that has nothing to do with being under the Law.

Jesus gave us a New Covenant commandment which is to both love one another and to spread the Gospel, Baptize and make Deciples. None of these are considered "Law".

If we are commanded to Baptize, are we disobedient if we don't? Furthermore, are we disobedient when we teach Baptism is not a part of the Christian experience or is obsolete?

"With due respect, being under grace is not a free pass to disobedience and that has nothing to do with being under the Law." Nobody said it was.

Who are "Deciples"?

Your twisting the doctrine of baptism is of no interest to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, the moment we are saved we are justified. But none of the passages you referenced here tell us when that occurs. Rom 6:1-6 tells us that we are justified (united with Christ's death) in immersion. Col 2:11-15 tells us that we are justified (sins circumcised from us by the Holy Spirit) in immersion. Acts 22:16 tells us that we are justified (sins washed away) in immersion. Mark 16:16 tells us that we are saved (justified) when we believe and are immersed.

Our sins are washed away, we are added to the Church, we are forgiven of our sins, etc when we are immersed.

Our sins were paid for on the cross, but since not everyone will be saved, each individual's sins were not cleansed at the cross. We are born again when we are resurrected with Christ in immersion.
No, Jesus didn't have to have His sins washed away, because He never sinned.

How were persons saved before we knew about baptism?

 

[stovebolts]

Your twisting the doctrine of baptism is of no interest to me.

Please learn to extend a bit of grace toward the brotherhood as it lends to better discussions.

If you had no interest in Baptism, you would not have engaged in this conversation.

If you would like to discuss in a civil manner void of condescending remarks, then I invite you to answer my inquiery. Below.

I am trying to understand your use of the term "I am not under Law".

The way I understand Baptism, Jesus commanded us to Baptize, which is separate from the Law, which I refer to as the Old Covenant at Sinai.


Matthew 28:19-20
New King James Version

19 (A)Go [a]therefore and (B)make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 (C)teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am (D)with you always, even to the end of the age.” [b]Amen.

If you truly have no interest, then I urge you to refrain from rude or harsh replies.

Thank you.

 

[jaybo]

Please learn to extend a bit of grace toward the brotherhood as it lends to better discussions.

If you had no interest in Baptism, you would not have engaged in this conversation.

If you would like to discuss in a civil manner void of condescending remarks, then I invite you to answer my inquiery. Below.

I am trying to understand your use of the term "I am not under Law".

The way I understand Baptism, Jesus commanded us to Baptize, which is separate from the Law, which I refer to as the Old Covenant at Sinai.


Matthew 28:19-20
New King James Version

19 (A)Go [a]therefore and (B)make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 (C)teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am (D)with you always, even to the end of the age.” [b]Amen.

If you truly have no interest, then I urge you to refrain from rude or harsh replies.

Thank you.

Baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is clearly not water baptism. Name does not mean water.

I urge you to refrain from rude or harsh replies.

 

[stovebolts]

Baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is clearly not water baptism. Name does not mean water.

I urge you to refrain from rude or harsh replies.

I am trying to understand your use of the term "I am not under Law".

Will you please explain to me how you mix baptism (a commandment from Jesus) with the Law?

 

[Doug Brents]

How were persons saved before we knew about baptism?

There never was a time, under the NT, "before we knew about baptism [immersion]". Immersion was established as the point at which salvation occurred when Jesus commanded it so just before His ascension into Heaven (Mark 16:16). It was preached as the point at which sins are forgiven in the first sermon in the newly born Kingdom on Pentecost (Acts 2:38). It has always (under the NT) been the point at which salvation occurred. Under the OT, it was not part of the Law, but under the NT it has always been.

 

[Doug Brents]

Baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is clearly not water baptism. Name does not mean water.

I urge you to refrain from rude or harsh replies.

There are several passages that prove that the "one immersion" spoken of in Eph 4:5 is water immersion. For instance, 1 Pet 3:21 says that water immersion is analogous to The Flood which saved Noah and his family. Eph 5:25-27 tells us that it is through the washing of water by the Word that we are purified. Col 2:11-15 and Rom 6:1-6 both tell us that it is the Spirit doing the work during immersion (where we are buried with Christ and raised to walk a new life).

There is only one immersion, and that immersion must be water immersion. And it IS the point at which the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sins and add us to the Church by the power of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.