Infant Immersion

[Doug Brents]

No! It is a gift of God by His grace. There is nothing we can do to force His hand to give us His grace. It's all Him.

Agreed. There is nothing we did, do, or could do that would incentivize Him to give us the gift that He graciously offers. But He, by His grace, offers us this gift with conditions. He commanded the conditions, not us. He said believe in me. He said confess My Name. He said repent of your sins and follow Me. He said be immersed to receive forgiveness of your sins. These are conditions He established to qualify us to receive the gift that He offers. Not the gift that we demand, or forced Him to offer. Nor do we pry it out of His hands by these actions. He said (not in these words, but the total message of Scripture is) if you will surrender your will to Mine, I will give you eternal life in Heaven with Me. But if you insist on having your own will, then you will spend eternity in Hell away from Me.

 

[Doug Brents]

I don't see immersion even referenced in either of those texts you referenced. In fact, I wonder what baptism is really being spoken of...water baptism or baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The word "baptize" is a transliteration (taking a word from one language and making it a part of another language where it has no definition and defining it however you want). The translators of the KJV had the practice of sprinkling or pouring instead of immersion. So when they translated the Word into English, they had a problem. If they translated baptizo correctly, then it would say immersion and would show their inconsistency with Scripture. So they just put the Greek word in English, and defined it to mean sprinkling or pouring. So "baptize" simply means immerse. And that is why I choose to use the word immerse instead of baptize.

These two passages both talk about being immersed, and the Spirit doing the work in the immersion. We also see in Eph 4:4-6 that there is but one immersion in Christ. So now we need to see what immersion qualifies as that one immersion throughout the NT. When we look at the Ethiopian Eunuch and Philip, the Eunuch asked Philip, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being immersed?"
Further, in 1 Pet 3:18-21, the water of the Flood is analogized to the water in which we are immersed.
Further, in Eph 5:26, it is by the washing of water by the Word that we are made perfect, blameless, white as snow, etc.
Finally, in Acts 22:16, if it had been Spirit immersion that was being referred to, then there would have been no reason for Saul to "arise" to be immersed. The Spirit could have met him right were he was. But Ananias told Saul, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it is not the water that saves. It is the Spirit that saves, by the power of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, in the water. Big difference.

John 3:5 is an allusion to water immersion and the Spirit that does the work in the immersion.

If the person to whom you refer were my student and disciple of Jesus, then they would be immersed immediately upon confession of their belief just as exampled in Acts (that same hour of the night, immediately, that same hour, etc.). There is never any delay between belief and immersion. Now, there was frequently time between preaching and belief, but never between a confession of belief and immersion.

If you say that belief and baptism must happen almost simultaneously,,,,then I'd say you believe that one is not saved by believing but by believing and being baptized.

Although I agree that we are to obey Jesus and be baptized....
I also believe that if one were to die before being baptized, he would not be lost.

Paul said he was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel.
Accepting Jesus as God and Savior is our salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

As I stated prayers are also offered to the Lord by the church. You consider that act a waste of time? How do you know Jesus does nothing? I would state Jesus knows me well. As I also stated the baptism was just a beginning. The teaching and raising up in the Lord follows. I see the act as a parent asking the Lord to bless their child.

I think the Holy Spirit was around (outward) before "I" asked for the gift (inward). I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I was sanctified by my faith in Jesus. I have loved and believed in Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I was baptized as a infant. I will not be baptized again regardless of what others think that the baptism I had was meaningless. And again I don't think you have the right to state it was meaningless.

I am not saying it was meaningless. Scripture does that without my restating the fact.

Yes, a person must grow and be taught further about how to follow God after they have given their life over to Him. And yes, prayers are very powerful. But there in no indication anywhere in Scripture that prayer has any impact on salvation.

You state that Jesus knows you well, but does Scripture back you up on that? Were you immersed into Christ on your own faith, or that of your parents?

Obviously the Spirit is around everyone, but you do not "ask for the gift" and receive it. You can only receive the Holy Spirit through your own faith. Is your pride such that you will not surrender to the will of God and be immersed into Christ? I am not saying you have to on my account. I am just posing the question to you that, if you discovered that you were in error and your immersion as an infant was ineffectual in adding you to the Body of Christ (not just the local Church), would you surrender your will to His and be immersed now to satisfy the command of God?

 

[Doug Brents]

If you say that belief and baptism must happen almost simultaneously,,,,then I'd say you believe that one is not saved by believing but by believing and being baptized.

Although I agree that we are to obey Jesus and be baptized....
I also believe that if one were to die before being baptized, he would not be lost.

Paul said he was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel.
Accepting Jesus as God and Savior is our salvation.

Read the complete passage from which you take this snippet. 1 Cor 1:10-17. Paul is not saying he is not there to immerse. He immersed one or two families while he was there. He planted the seed, and some sprouted immediately. Some had to sit a while until Apollos came to water the seed. And still others until Cephas watered even further.

Paul is glad he did not immerse more so that his name would not be added to the fuel of division in that congregation. Yes, Paul came to immerse. He did so in every place where the Seed sprouted immediately. Like with Lidia, and the jailer, and many others.

 

[Randy]

I am not saying it was meaningless. Scripture does that without my restating the fact.

Yes, a person must grow and be taught further about how to follow God after they have given their life over to Him. And yes, prayers are very powerful. But there in no indication anywhere in Scripture that prayer has any impact on salvation.

You state that Jesus knows you well, but does Scripture back you up on that? Were you immersed into Christ on your own faith, or that of your parents?

Obviously the Spirit is around everyone, but you do not "ask for the gift" and receive it. You can only receive the Holy Spirit through your own faith. Is your pride such that you will not surrender to the will of God and be immersed into Christ? I am not saying you have to on my account. I am just posing the question to you that, if you discovered that you were in error and your immersion as an infant was ineffectual in adding you to the Body of Christ (not just the local Church), would you surrender your will to His and be immersed now to satisfy the command of God?

I confess I asked Jesus not the Father

If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

 

[Randy]

I would think the key is in prayer. As it is what the Lord does not us. And certainly those who ask is a good sign they believe in the one they are asking.

 

[Doug Brents]

I confess I asked Jesus not the Father

If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Very true, but this passage only applies to those who are children of God. You are not a child of God until you have been adopted, and you are not adopted until you are "in Christ", and you are not in Christ until you have been immersed into His death and united with His resurrection.

 

[GodsGrace]

Read the complete passage from which you take this snippet. 1 Cor 1:10-17. Paul is not saying he is not there to immerse. He immersed one or two families while he was there. He planted the seed, and some sprouted immediately. Some had to sit a while until Apollos came to water the seed. And still others until Cephas watered even further.

Paul is glad he did not immerse more so that his name would not be added to the fuel of division in that congregation. Yes, Paul came to immerse. He did so in every place where the Seed sprouted immediately. Like with Lidia, and the jailer, and many others.

Paul's objective was to preach....he does not seem to make baptism overly important.
And reading the N.T. does not lead one to believe that Paul baptised many times.

John said that those that received Jesus had the right to be called children of God.
John 1:12-13
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Check verse 13....John does not even add baptism.

In John 1:29 he proclaims: BEHOLD, THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

It is Jesus that takes away the sin of the world.

I DO believe we are to be baptized.
I don't believe our salvation hinges on this or it would have been made more important by the N.T. writers.

 

[Doug Brents]

Paul's objective was to preach....he does not seem to make baptism overly important.
And reading the N.T. does not lead one to believe that Paul baptised many times.

John said that those that received Jesus had the right to be called children of God.
John 1:12-13
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Check verse 13....John does not even add baptism.

In John 1:29 he proclaims: BEHOLD, THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

It is Jesus that takes away the sin of the world.

I DO believe we are to be baptized.
I don't believe our salvation hinges on this or it would have been made more important by the N.T. writers.

So you don't believe that Jesus said, "He who believes and is immersed will be saved."? Commands don't get much more clear than that. And then Peter, in the first sermon preached in the new Kingdom, taught exactly what Jesus said when he commanded, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." How do you "receive Him"? How are you "born again"? Both answers are the same: by being "immersed into Him" (Rom 6:1-6).

 

[Doug Brents]

Check verse 13....John does not even add baptism.

Take a quick look at the inscription of the charge against Jesus on the Cross. It is specifically mentioned in all four of the Gospels. But if you look closely, it is different in each one. Two of them mention that it is in three languages, but the other two do not. If you only read one of the passages, you may not learn that it was in three languages. And if you only read one passage, you may come away with the idea that it was the soldier's idea to write the charge, when in reality it was Pilate who commanded the charge to be written. And there are other differences as well.

My point is, that if we only look at a few passages and exclude others from our research, we may get a skewed idea about what Scripture really says about a subject. Yes, we are commanded to believe, but if we stop with just the passages that say believe, we may miss other passages that command repentance as well, and also confession of Jesus' Name, and also immersion. All must be done, or none of them have meaning.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I am a new member here, and I was just rereading through the "statement of faith" at the top of the forums. I have a problem with the line where it says, "those [immersed] as infants will not be excluded."

Immersion of an infant does nothing other than get the infant wet, and possibly angry. The passage cited as support for accepting infants who were immersed excludes them rather emphatically in saying "make disciples, and immerse them ..." You cannot make a disciple of someone who does not understand what you are talking about (an infant). They do not understand the need for salvation. They do not understand what sin is. They do not even understand the difference between right and wrong.

So do you think the infants go to hell?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes, as a demonstration of dedication I have no objection to presenting an infant to the congregation and anointing them with oil, or other such signs of committment. I did that with both of my girls.

However, it very much is ineffectual to immerse (and even more so to sprinkle or pour which have no value to anyone) when it comes to salvation. What does Scripture say is required to be saved?

Repentance: an infant cannot repent, because that is a decision to change direction. They don't know what direction they are going, don't understand the difference between right and wrong, and don't have the mental faculties to make that decision.

Confess the name of Jesus: an infant cannot confess Jesus' name because most of the time infant "baptism" occurs before the infant can even speak.

Be immersed: Yes, an infant can be immersed, but if they have not yet done the two things above, then they just get wet, just like you or I would if we did not believe the Gospel, repent, and confess Jesus' as our Lord.

Infant immersion is worthless in any way toward salvation. And a person who was "baptized" as an infant must come to their own faith, repent, confess, and be immersed as an adult or they remain lost.

A child remains lost?
What part of hell is reserved for them?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

i just dont agree with infant baptism .i never have never will .far to many think it saves them.

Then how are children saved?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't know of a church that teaches this.
If this is what they think, then they've been misguided by either their church or just their own misunderstanding.

Some catholics think they're saved because they're baptized.
But the CC does not teach this.

Then how are they saved?
Or do they all just go to hell?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

After 5 pages and 90 + threads, you are all just arguing garbage.
You baptize an infant with the sprinkiling of water, they are saved and their salvation is theirs to lose when they are old enough.
Stop judging children.
It makes you all sound like children.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Children are not born lost but born in a neutral, innocent, safe state therefore have no need to be baptized. This is why infant baptism is not found within the NT gospel.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Children are not born lost but born in a neutral, innocent, safe state therefore have no need to be baptized. This is why infant baptism is not found within the NT gospel.

Scripture to back that up?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Scripture to back that up?

David (Psalms 23) prophesied of himself "I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."

When his infant child died that Bathsheba gave birth to David said " I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." 2 Sam 12:23

 

[Randy]

Very true, but this passage only applies to those who are children of God. You are not a child of God until you have been adopted, and you are not adopted until you are "in Christ", and you are not in Christ until you have been immersed into His death and united with His resurrection.

I didn't read all that you wrote with what Jesus stated. I reject your qualifier.

Those that are born of God already have the Spirit. Why would they need to ask for something they already have?