Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

James plainly says not by faith alone.

That's right. A man is not only justified by faith, but he is also justified by his deeds. Do you think we have a problem with this?

 

[JLB]

James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

What works did Abraham do to be justified in this verse?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

 

[JLB]

That's right. A man is not only justified by faith, but he is also justified by his deeds. Do you think we have a problem with this?

Abraham didn’t do any deeds. He obeyed what God told him to do in offering up his son.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


Do you agree?

 

[mailmandan]

J....I've stated several times that I'm speaking to AFTER salvation.
If you would just answer a simple question,,,
Are we required, through the teachings of Jesus, to do good works?

He taught that to be properly judged in our favor...
we need to do good deeds.
John 5:28-29 THOSE WHO DO GOOD DEEDS TO A JUDGMENT OF LIFE.

Paul also stated that we will be judged by what we do.
Romans 2:6 GOD WILL RENDER TO EACH MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

We need FAITH to be saved...
then we need good deeds.

It sounds like you and mailmandan are saying,"sure we do good deeds because we WANT to,,,
but we don't HAVE TO."

I'M saying that we HAVE TO.

We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good - John 5:28-29) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

If one reads Romans 2:6 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we also see in Romans 2:6-10. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.. Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?" Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

You know Dan....I'd like to stop posting to you.
Know why?
Because some new Christian reading along is going to get the idea that WORKS ARE DREADFUL AND NOT TO E DONE OR WE DON'T TRUST GOD ENOUGH.

BTW I never said that works are dreadful. That is a straw man argument. We are to let our light shine before men, that they may see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven. (Matthew 5:16) We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) Those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. (Titus 3:8) That does not sound dreadful, forced or legalistic.

Remember that faith works by/is expressed through love. (Galatians 5:6)

 

[mailmandan]

Abraham didn’t do any deeds. He obeyed what God told him to do in offering up his son.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Do you agree?

Define "justified" in James 2:21. Then define it in Romans 4:2-3.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

 

[mailmandan]

That's right. A man is not only justified by faith, but he is also justified by his deeds. Do you think we have a problem with this?

Amen! A man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1) and justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21, 24)

 

[mailmandan]

What works did Abraham do to be justified in this verse?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

 

[JLB]

Define "justified" in James 2:21. Then define it in Romans 4:2-3.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

There are three possibilities. Each possibility contains the word righteous.

If we say Justifed in James 2:21 means show to be righteous then the question I have is…

If Abraham disobeyed God would he have been shown to be righteous?

 

[JLB]

A man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith

Do you understand that faith must have the action of obedience otherwise faith is dead?

Or to put in another way, do you understand that just hearing the Gospel doesn’t save you but obeying the Gospel does.

We receive faith by hearing the word of God.

Once we hear and receive faith, we must be doers of the word; we must obey the Gospel command repent in order to be saved.

To obey the Gospel we must confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord.

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

 

[mailmandan]

There are three possibilities. Each possibility contains the word righteous.

If we say Justifed in James 2:21 means show to be righteous then the question I have is…

If Abraham disobeyed God would he have been shown to be righteous?

So, do you believe it's show to be righteous? If Abraham disobeyed God, he would not have been shown to be righteous which also would have meant that Abraham never truly believed God in Genesis 15:5-6, but of course, that was not the case. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) and when Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

 

[mailmandan]

Do you understand that faith must have the action of obedience otherwise faith is dead?

So, according to you a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith? That is like saying a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. It must first be made alive. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Just like life flows through the root of a tree brings life to it and produces fruit.

Or to put in another way, do you understand that just hearing the Gospel doesn’t save you but obeying the Gospel does.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Your idea of obeying the gospel culminates in salvation by works.

We receive faith by hearing the word of God.

Amen!

Once we hear and receive faith, we must be doers of the word; we must obey the Gospel command repent in order to be saved.

You redefine faith as works. Repentance actually precedes faith. (Acts 20:21) Your theology is all over the place, yet it still consistently culminates in works salvation.

To obey the Gospel we must confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord.

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

 

[mailmandan]

James plainly says not by faith alone.

Not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works. (James 2:14, 24)
Not to be confused with being justified (accounted as righteous) by faith in Jesus Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1)

Do you understand the difference?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works. (James 2:14, 24)
Not to be confused with being justified (accounted as righteous) by faith in Jesus Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1)

Do you understand the difference?

Work vs faith is a FALSE DICHOTOMY. Work doesn't bring salvation, but it strengthens faith, which leads to greater motivation to work, it's a positive feedback loop. Without faith, you'd end up like the shallow soil or the thorny soil with no yield.

But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall. (Matt. 7:27)
If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:14-15)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

Exactly. Which we can easily see from the account itself:

12“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.b” - Genesis 22:12

His righteousness was shown by his obedience to offer up Isaac on the altar, not established by it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


Do you agree?

Yes, I agree. Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.

His obedience showed that he was righteous. That's what justified means in the passage. It does not mean he was made righteous by his obedience.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed.
We are not saved by righteous deeds that we had done before we were saved.

And scripture explains itself:

Titus 3:1-8 NASB
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,

2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.

3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

Please not that the very verse you posted exhorts us to good works.
....it states that we are TO DO them....
AFTER SALVATION, as shown in verse 7 The hearers were already justified by grace.

Good works: Verse 1, 2, 8

It even states how we're NOT to behave....verse 3

Nobody is saying we do not have to do good works.

The argument is that we do not have to do good works in order to be credited God's righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well you tell me.
Was Paul a believer?
And yet he WAS concerned about being DISQUALIFIED.
Disqualified means to be thrown out.

Let's see the verses NASB
1 Corinthians 9:23-27
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Run in such a way that you may win.
What?
Verse 25 an imperishable prize.

The growing pains of the believer do not disqualify a believer from the inheritance. Purposely dwelling in sin does, because purposely dwelling in sin is the sign of the unbeliever, not the believer. So Paul would have to go back to unbelief to be disqualified. Assuming that's even possible for a real believer to do (the warning seems to be sufficient to keep the real believer believing-I take no firm stance on the issue).

Scripturally, it's clear that only an unbeliever can be disqualified, not someone who believes, because the believing person's sin is continually atoned for through the finished but ongoing intercessory Ministry of Christ in the heavenly tabernacle that he believes and trusts in (Hebrews 7:25). Paul is not warning us that you remain justified through the merit of your working. You remain justified through continued believing, as evidenced by your work - "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK
So why is it so difficult to reply YES to my question?
Why do I not have a problem answering YES

I answered your question already with an emphatic "YES". Did you miss that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm telling you what I've been telling Dan for years now.
This idea that we do good works because we want to sounds too close to
the idea that we don't have to do good works if we don't want to, but all is just fine
because Jesus did it all and all we need is faith.

Nobody is saying we don't have to do good works. We don't have to do good works to be, or remain, justified, as if doing works was how one is imputed the righteousness of God. THAT is the argument.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A member on this thread asked me how MANY good works I have to do, or some such statement. This shows a complete lack of understanding that we are to change and be conformed to Christ and not to this world.
(as much as possible).

And you think that righteousness - the part-time righteousness of your works - is going to get you into heaven? That's not good enough.

Sooner or later every person has to realize the ONLY righteousness that's going to get you into heaven is the righteousness of God given to you as a free gift of his grace. You get that gift of righteousness when you believe in God's promise of a Son who inherits the blessing on your behalf. The same way Abraham was imputed the righteousness of God.

18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise. Galatians 3:18

You don't work the righteousness of the law to receive the promise of the inheritance (you aren't that good, nobody is). You believe the promise, and it is given to you as a free gift.