Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[JLB]

Exactly what I have said brother.

The thief heard, had faith to believe and made the choice for Christ.

The thief confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus and believed in his heart God would raise him from the dead.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

 

[JLB]

I'am not discussing works.......Really?

Really.

Here’s what I said…

I’m not discussing good works, the works of the law, work that earns a wage, or works of righteousness.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


What “work” did Abraham do?

Answer: He obeyed God’s word to offer Isaac on the altar.

The same word by which he received faith.

This is the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

 

[mailmandan]

There is only one kind of faith.

It’s either alive (activated to function) or dead (inactive and unable to function)

What is the source of life in faith? How are we made alive together with Christ? See Ephesians 2:5-8.

Faith comes from God to us when we hear Him speak to us.

Romans 10:17.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7

It was by or out of faith that Noah built the ark and saved him and his family from drowning. Don't forget that Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God BEFORE he built the ark. (Genesis 6:8-9) His obedience was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it.

Noah received faith when God spoke to him to prepare the ark.

Noah believed the Lord in Genesis 6 and acted accordingly to build the ark for the saving of his household. (Hebrews 11:6)

The faith, the divine substance, became the ark by the action of Noah’s obedience, thus providing salvation for Noah and his family and the rest of mankind.

The ark saved Noah and his family from drowning but the rest of mankind drown in the flood waters.

By Noah moving with godly fear, and obeying the voice of God, Noah’s faith became activated to produce the intended divine result of salvation (deliverance from destruction) where Noah operated in the righteousness according to faith.

Salvation from the flood but not eternal salvation. Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord, was a just man who walked with God and a preacher of righteousness BEFORE he built the ark. Don't put the cart before the horse.

Obedience of faith.

Obedience which is produced out of faith is works. (Romans 4:2-6)

 

[JLB]

What is the source of life in faith?

The source of faith is God.

We receive faith from God.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17

 

[Rodger]

Really.

Here’s what I said…

I’m not discussing good works, the works of the law, work that earns a wage, or works of righteousness.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


What “work” did Abraham do?

Answer: He obeyed God’s word to offer Isaac on the altar.

The same word by which he received faith.

This is the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

Are we having this round robin discussion just for the sake of taking up time.??

We just keep saying the same thing but with different words.

If you want to believe that obedience is more important than faith or that faith is somehow dead, then go ahead my friend. I just do not have anything else to help your understanding on this topic.

 

[Rodger]

The source of faith is God.

We receive faith from God.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17

YES. I agreed about 50 posts ago!

 

[Rodger]

The thief confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus and believed in his heart God would raise him from the dead.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Brother JLB.......Where did I say anything different than that?

 

[JLB]

If you want to believe that obedience is more important than faith or that faith is somehow dead, then go ahead my friend.

The only way faith operates is by obedience.

Can you answer my question about Abraham.

What “work” did Abraham do to be justified?

Salvation from the flood but not eternal salvation.

Of course. That’s why I mentioned deliverance from destruction.

However it typifies salvation by being in Christ.

 

[JLB]

Brother JLB.......Where did I say anything different than that?

So you agree?

 

[Rodger]

So you agree?

That is an open ended question. Agree to what......WW1 was never ended? Hiroshima actually started WW3.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God? Yes.

 

[JLB]

That is an open ended question. Agree to what......WW1 was never ended? Hiroshima actually started WW3.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God? Yes.

Yes. That was my question that I asked if you agree with… did Hiroshima actually start WWIII.

That’s really awesome brother!!!

How did you know that’s what I was thinking?

Are you a prophet?

 

[Rodger]

The only way faith operates is by obedience.

Can you answer my question about Abraham.

What “work” did Abraham do to be justified?



Of course. That’s why I mentioned deliverance from destruction.

However it typifies salvation by being in Christ.

I already answered that question about 3 times now.

Again.....Faith and obedience are closely related. Faith is not passive but active and it RESULTS IN OBEDIENCE. Obedience is an expression of trust in what God has promised and commands.

What work did Abraham do? Again.....Nothing to be justified.

Abraham was justified by his faith.

In Genesis 15:6, it is stated that Abraham believed the Lord and counted it as righteousness.

The apostle James cites this verse and claims that Abraham became the "friend of God" due to his faith.

If you do not like what those Scriptures say to upset your thinking, I can not help you.

It is what it is my friend.

 

[Rodger]

Yes. That was my question that I asked if you agree with… did Hiroshima actually start WWIII.

That’s really awesome brother!!!

How did you know that’s what I was thinking?

Are you a prophet?

No such thing as a Prophet today. The complete Word of God is canonized. There is no need for a prophet when we all have the Holy Spirit IN us and our ability to read the actual Words given to us by God.

If the purpose of a prophet was to reveal truth from God, why would we need prophets if we have the completed revelation from God in the Bible?

If prophets were the “foundation” of the early church, are we still building the “foundation” today?

Can God give someone a message to deliver to someone else? Absolutely!

Does God reveal truth to someone in a supernatural way and enable that person to deliver that message to others? Absolutely! But is this the biblical gift of prophecy? No.

Whatever the case, whenever a person claims to be speaking for God (the essence of prophecy) the key is to compare what is said with what the Bible says. If God were to speak through a person today, it would be in 100% complete agreement with what God has already said in the Bible. God does not contradict Himself.

I personally call that Good Teaching!

 

[GodsGrace]

James is not speaking of the law regarding Abraham. I made no argument for that.

In the passage, James uses examples of obedience to the law to show us the work by which a man is justified (shown to be righteous, not made to be righteous). Faith that is not dead upholds the law. JLB made the argument that James was not talking about faith doing the works of the law in James 2.

I don't read each and every post J...so I really don't know what JLB is posting, except for falling upon one of his posts every now and then. I must say that I agree with him totally, as do most Protestants that believe good works are necessary for salvation....it is just simple obedience to God...Romans calls it the obedience of faith.
Obedience without faith is useless...
Faith without obedience is useless...

I took the time to go back and read his post no. 838.
I agree with him totally.

James is speaking about good works/deeds. This is obvious because he speaks of giving clothing or food.
James does state that Abraham was justified by a good work when he went up Mt. Moriah.
He states that faith was working with his works...making his faith perfect.
James 2:21 NASB
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

Just as Abraham's faith was perfected by works,
his works fulfilled his belief in God...
Just like the obedience of Jesus (but perfect) fulfilled the Law.
Our works fulfill,,,,make perfect,,,,our faith.
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.
But he also obeyed God throughout his life...even into his old age.
Abraham did not ONLY BELIEVE....he put his belief to work...
he was justified initially by his belief...
but his obedience kept him justified.

If we lose our sanctification, we also lose our justification.

 

[GodsGrace]

He does desire perfection from us:

48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48

So you think Jesus meant that we should be as perfect as God?
You know this is nonsense J.

But he also knows we're on a journey to perfection:

18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory.... 2 Corinthians 3:18

Correct.
We are BEING TRANSFORMED.
What makes us be transformed?
Our bad works?
What if we decide we don't want to do good anymore?
Are we still headed toward sanctification?

One day the righteousness that has been credited to us in this age will be a reality for us in the next. That is our hope:

Amen to that.

5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness. Galatians 5:5

For now we have a declaration of righteousness that is not our own. Credited to us as an act of God's grace through our faith, apart from any consideration of righteous things we have done (that's what 'faith alone' means in that context).

By righteous things WE HAVE DONE.
Passed tense.
Do we do any righteous things in the future?

Philippians 3:10-14
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

We are graciously gifted this declaration of righteousness because we are unable to earn it ourselves. Now we hope and long for the day when we will possess in reality the righteousness that for now has been credited to us:

27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Colossians 1:27

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Philippians 3:12

Looks like we used the same Philippians verse.
Paul has not yet attained his goal of sanctification,,,but he presses on.
Sanctification is a change, a conversion, changing from one thing to another thing.
This happens by doing good.

If we do not work good works in the Kingdom of God, right here, as Jesus taught, we will not remain is His Kingdom.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good works are only rejected as the basis for God declaring us righteous. No one is good enough to be declared righteous that way. That's why you can only be declared righteous by being cleansed of all your unrighteousness through God's forgiveness received by faith, apart from your works. That's what 'faith alone' means, in that context.

You keep saying FAITH ALONE IN THAT CONTEXT....
There is no FAITH ALONE IN THAT CONTEXT.
Faith Alone means something very specific and we are not saved by faith alone.

In order to be saved we must obey the teachings of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are we having this round robin discussion just for the sake of taking up time.??

We just keep saying the same thing but with different words.

If you want to believe that obedience is more important than faith or that faith is somehow dead, then go ahead my friend. I just do not have anything else to help your understanding on this topic.

Here is the understanding Paul had:

Philippians 3:10-14
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Faith without works is a DEAD FAITH.
We do not compare faith with works.
BOTH are needed to achieve sanctification.

Abraham had faith.
Abraham had works.

When he obeyed God he was doing good works, just as God wants us to do.

If you do not believe good works are necessary, then you will not remain in the Kingdom, here on earth.
Jesus expects you to USE the grace He has given you:

Matthew 25:14-30
14 "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
15 "To one he gave five talents, to another *, two, and to another *, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
16 "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
17 "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
18 "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
19 "Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.
20 "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
21 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
22 "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
24 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In Christ refers to people who are saved.

Call 'em what you want, but when they are cut out of the vine they are unbelievers.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

While separated the lost sheep is referred to as sinner.

The lost sheep is an unbelieving sheep. The one who practices sin is not born again. That's what the Bible says. You can't change that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When the lost sheep returns, then he will be restored and again be justified like the 99.

Wrong. The person who willingly falls away is not allowed to come back to repentance.

This is not to discourage people who have struggled in the faith and backslidden. It is the person who willfully and knowingly falls away out of love for their sin and out of deliberate unbelief that are not allowed to repent again, crucifing Christ all over again, subjecting him to open shame.