Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Rodger]

No, I don't "look hard to find anything to disagree with." This might be your perception, possibly because you don't like to be corrected? But "all scripture" is for correction as well as anything else concerning the truth. If I am seeing that you and whoever is debating with you are not on the same page, it is often because the communication is faulty and the usage of terms is not the same. All I am doing is trying to get people on the same page by advising on how to clarify the communication. I try to offer examples of how to correctly interpret scripture, because what the Bible actually means by what it says is of prime importance. I'm pretty sure you can agree with that, can you?

I only said that because that is what it looks like to me.

I have NO problem being corrected of the Scriptures if so shown I am incorrect. So far, that has not happened on this forum site.

The person/people who is talking with me do not have the correct understanding of the Scriptures in question.

I am a "Faith Alone" teacher about salvation. Some of the people here do not agree and have chosen to "ADD" their opinion to the Word of God. THAT is what the bottom line is.

Yes sir I agree 100% which if you have read my posts, are all verified with Scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says..........
""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Clear...easy to read, easy to understand. To those clear words, JBL has said that we must "Obey the Commandments".

That is NOT Biblical and it is the focus of the conversation.

 

[Rodger]

By this, it appears to me that you are admitting that you can obey the commandments then, I mean the 10 commandments, since that is the basis of all moral commandments stated elsewhere, correct? When you say Paul is talking about "the Law of Moses," do you think that is talking about the 613 legalistic demands of the Jews? When he says "the whole law is fulfilled" in love, do you think that excludes anything at all? So then, if you are loving your neighbor as Christ commanded His disciples, then how can you say that you can't obey the commandments, seeing that "the whole law is fulfilled" by loving one's neighbor?

I understand the distinction between spiritual ability of the believer and the spiritual depravity of the unbeliever. I acknowledge that the unbeliever is blind and unable to love as Christ commanded, and so a person not born of God cannot love God and his neighbor in faith. So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that an unbeliever cannot obey the commandments. But it also doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a believer can indeed love God and his neighbor as Christ commanded, since he has the Spirit to motivate him to do so. Isn't this the faith we live by and the faith that the apostles describe and teach in all the NT?

Therefore, the statement that anyone "cannot obey the commandments" can only apply to people who have not been born of God. It cannot apply to regenerate people (I'm just trying to clarify this idea). Do you agree?

I appreciate how hard you work to piece meal what is said so as to confront and ask questions.

Now to answer you question Biblically, the law Paul is talking about In Romans and Galatians is the Law of Moses, which was given by God to Israel in Ex. 20-40 & Lev. 1-7.

The law included the 10 Commandments and all the moral, ceremonial, and civil regulations that governed the life of the people of Israel in their covenant relationship with God. Paul indicates that the entire law can be summed up in one operative word—love.

By faith we believe and accept that Jesus Christ bore the curse of the law when He died on the cross. And through Him we receive the Holy Spirit, who enables us to keep the divine law of love: “Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law” (Romans 13:10,)

Paul’s point is not, “if you want to keep the law, love your neighbor.” He has said repeatedly that the age of the Law is done and over with and the one who is in Christ is free from the Mosaic Law.

My guess is that you are proposing that by loving their neighbor I have somehow kept ALL of the Law of Christ. What motivates YOU to try and prove such a thought???

To me, “loving your neighbor” seems to be the main point here – why do you serve others? If it is to keep a “Law” or because it is “expected of you,” then it is possible you have missed the point altogether.

 

[Rodger]

On a different Christian forum, there is someone who teaches that we are merely "initially" saved by God's grace through faith in Christ without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but after that works also play a part in the salvation process. These folks cannot have it both ways.

Brother, the reason that there are so many "False" and misleading comments on Christian forums, is that basic Bible believing churches will not allow them to say these things in their church.

They have been humiliated, and run out of churches and have found an outlet to give out the unbiblical opinions that they have.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Looks like John was addressing the same deception as we have today.

He starts out saying… Little children, let no one deceive you.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7

• He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

You're saying the verse is prescriptive, meaning you think it's a prescription for obtaining the righteousness required to be saved. It's easy to see that it's a description of the person who is already righteous, not a prescription on how to become righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A person can believe they are righteous because 20 years ago they were born again,but they are not living for God.

Oh they go to church and live lukewarm lives and believe lukewarm watered down doctrine that is a mixture of some scripture along with a healthy dose of the teachings of man.

There is no fear of the Lord. There is no passion or fire for the things of God.

Only excuses and deception. People deceiving themselves because they read and “believe” what the scriptures say, but they don’t do what the scriptures say.

So you agree, then, that James is talking about the dead faith of unsaved people, not the dead faith of born again, believing people?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How about Peter?

Peter was clean and only needed to wash his feet. Judas was not clean. He did not have the bath that the other disciples had that requires they only wash their feet, not their whole body all over again.

Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with Me.”

9“Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not only my feet, but my hands and my head as well!”

10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.” 11For He knew who would betray Him. That is why He said, “Not all of you are clean.” John 13:8-11

Judas was not saved.

 

[JLB]

You're saying the verse is prescriptive, meaning you think it's a prescription for obtaining the righteousness required to be saved. It's easy to see that it's a description of the person who is already righteous, not a prescription on how to become righteous.

No I’m saying just what the scripture says.

• He who practices righteousness is righteous

A righteous person is someone who practices righteousness.

Surely you don’t believe a righteous person is someone who believes they are righteous because Jesus Christ paid the price for their righteousness, but they don’t practice righteousness?

 

[Rodger]

How about Peter? Is Peter a follower of Satan?

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23

YOU know that Peter was not a follower of Satan! Now, as a moderator, people read your comments and posts.

Don;t you feel really convicted to pose such a question?..........You should. It bothered me to read it!

The real, correct understanding of the Scripture you posed is about Jesus rebuking Peter when he tries to deter Jesus from his path of suffering and sacrifice, highlighting the importance of understanding and accepting God’s plan even when it seems difficult or contrary to our own desires.

At this point I would say about the conversation here that similarly, we may also unintentionally oppose God’s plans in our lives when we rely on our own limited understanding and perspective. When we resist or question the paths that God has laid out for us, we may hinder His purposes from being fulfilled. It is important for us to humble ourselves before God, seek His will, and trust that His plans are far greater and wiser than our own.

 

[JLB]

So you agree, then, that James is talking about the dead faith of unsaved people, not the dead faith of born again, believing people?

First of all My point has been to show the principal of faith; the obedience of faith.

Faith must have the “work” of obedience for faith to be “alive” or activated to produce the intended divine result.

I don’t an to argue about good works or works of righteousness or the works of the law.

I really don’t want to discuss salvation or saved by faith.

I would just like to show that faith by itself is dead and will not work or function.

I have shown several instances from the Bible about this.

The woman with the issue of blood is faith for healing.

The woman obeyed the word of faith and pressed through the crowds to touch the hem of His garment.

When she actually touched the hem of His garment as she was inspired to do by God, her faith was no longer the substance of the healing she had hoped for , but became the reality of the healing that was unseen.


The faith we receive from God when we hear Him, must be acted upon in obedience otherwise faith remains dormant and inactive.

 

[JLB]

Now, as a moderator

Bro, I’m not a moderator.

 

[JLB]

YOU know that Peter was not a follower of Satan! Now, as a moderator, people read your comments and posts.

Don;t you feel really convicted to pose such a question?..........You should. It bothered me to read it!

Jesus turned to Peter and said directly to Peter these words -

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me…

Bro, I don’t feel one bit convicted or offended.

It’s God’s word.

My point is Jesus spoke to Peter just as He did about Judas.


I’m sorry that upsets you.

 

[JLB]

So you agree, then, that James is talking about the dead faith of unsaved people, not the dead faith of born again, believing people?

A born again Christian is someone who has obeyed the Gospel, by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.

That is the principle of the obedience of faith.

A saved person is now in Christ, joined to Christ being one spirit with Him.

A person who does not respond in obedience to the Gospel command repent, remains unsaved, because the faith they received by hearing is dead; dormant, inactive.

 

[GodsGrace]

Brother, the reason that there are so many "False" and misleading comments on Christian forums, is that basic Bible believing churches will not allow them to say these things in their church.

They have been humiliated, and run out of churches and have found an outlet to give out the unbiblical opinions that they have.

Oh.
Is THIS why you're here?

 

[JLB]

Peter was clean and only needed to wash his feet. Judas was not clean. He did not have the bath that the other disciples had that requires they only wash their feet, not their whole body all over again.

Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with Me.”

9“Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not only my feet, but my hands and my head as well!”

10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.” 11For He knew who would betray Him. That is why He said, “Not all of you are clean.” John 13:8-11

Judas was not saved.

Judas became lost.

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me… While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:6-8,12

Something must belong to you in the first place, before it can be lost.

That is what the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son teaches.

Judas was an apostle of Jesus Christ, but became a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16

Judas like anyone else who sins and refuses to repent.

The reason he wasn’t clean is because he stole money from the money bag and never repented.

Therefore Satan had a legal right to influence and enter him.

Just like everyone else who is born again.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18


Judas was predestined just as the others to reign with Christ in the age to come.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

 

[JLB]

The real, correct understanding of the Scripture you posed is about Jesus rebuking Peter when he tries to deter Jesus from his path of suffering and sacrifice, highlighting the importance of understanding and accepting God’s plan even when it seems difficult or contrary to our own desires.

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” John 6:70

Here is the strongs definition of the word devil in this verse.

1. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

How does this differ from your explanation of why Jesus called Peter …. Satan?

 

[GodsGrace]

I appreciate how hard you work to piece meal what is said so as to confront and ask questions.

Now to answer you question Biblically, the law Paul is talking about In Romans and Galatians is the Law of Moses, which was given by God to Israel in Ex. 20-40 & Lev. 1-7.

The law included the 10 Commandments and all the moral, ceremonial, and civil regulations that governed the life of the people of Israel in their covenant relationship with God. Paul indicates that the entire law can be summed up in one operative word—love.

By faith we believe and accept that Jesus Christ bore the curse of the law when He died on the cross. And through Him we receive the Holy Spirit, who enables us to keep the divine law of love: “Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law” (Romans 13:10,)

Paul’s point is not, “if you want to keep the law, love your neighbor.” He has said repeatedly that the age of the Law is done and over with and the one who is in Christ is free from the Mosaic Law.

My guess is that you are proposing that by loving their neighbor I have somehow kept ALL of the Law of Christ. What motivates YOU to try and prove such a thought???

To me, “loving your neighbor” seems to be the main point here – why do you serve others? If it is to keep a “Law” or because it is “expected of you,” then it is possible you have missed the point altogether.

It is as you've stated.
THE LAW, at least the civil and ceremonial law, has been abolished.
Correct.

But did Jesus abolish HIS laws?

John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Matthew 4:1 Repent

Matthew 5:23 Be reconciled to one another

Matthew 5:23 Let your light shine before men

Matthew 7:1 Use right judgment

Matthew 5:39 Turn the other cheek

Matthew 5:43 Love your enemies

Matthew 7:12 Treat others as you'd like to be treated

Matthew 5:29 Take sin seriously

Matthew 22 Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself

Luke 12:15 Beware of greed

 

[tdidymas]

How about Peter? Is Peter a follower of Satan?

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23

Strawman argument! "satan" means "adversary." Jesus was not calling Peter "Satan" as if Peter was the satanic entity fit only for lake of fire judgment. In the context of the conversation, Jesus was convicting Peter of the sin of being adversarial to Jesus' prediction that He was to die and rise again. Thus, He said, "you are thinking of man's things, not God's." It means that Peter was speaking from an abjectly human perspective, and did not consider the spiritual aspect of Jesus' prophecy. Jesus was NOT condemning Peter. And in this, you prove that you can't interpret scripture properly.

In contrast to that, Jesus called Judas a "devil," meaning he was an evildoer - and condemned, thus, "son of perdition," and "it would have been better for that man if he had not been born" - which is one of the clearest forms of condemnation ever spoken by Jesus. He said nothing of the sort about Peter. The more you debate, the more you prove that you can't interpret the Bible.

 

[tdidymas]

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas heard His Voice and followed Him for over 3 years.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Judas was made an apostle by Jesus Christ.

Judas was one of the twelve when Jesus said this to them.



Judas choose to turn away from following Him.

Judas sin of taking money from the money bag, gave Satan the legal right to enter Judas.


It’s a good example for us today to follow, if we have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.

Good deflection strategy to evade the real issue by bringing in personal application to attempt interpretation. Proper application of scripture comes only after proper interpretation. And I disagree with your interpretation because you are confusing the physical and the spiritual, namely the disciples being "sent" out to preach the gospel (in the physical realm) confused with spiritually following Jesus (which Judas never did). Did Judas hear Jesus' voice in his spirit? Emphatically NO!! You can't interpret scripture because you don't understand it. Read what I wrote earlier carefully when I referenced Heb. 6:4-6, referring to Judas. But of course, you will disagree because that's what you do.

 

[tdidymas]

I only said that because that is what it looks like to me.

I have NO problem being corrected of the Scriptures if so shown I am incorrect. So far, that has not happened on this forum site.

The person/people who is talking with me do not have the correct understanding of the Scriptures in question.

I am a "Faith Alone" teacher about salvation. Some of the people here do not agree and have chosen to "ADD" their opinion to the Word of God. THAT is what the bottom line is.

Yes sir I agree 100% which if you have read my posts, are all verified with Scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says..........
""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Clear...easy to read, easy to understand. To those clear words, JBL has said that we must "Obey the Commandments".

That is NOT Biblical and it is the focus of the conversation.

I agree that he doesn't understand, and you'll see that in my responses to him. Yet, "obey the commandments" is actually what Jesus taught. The whole controversy is around salvation cause and effect. Reformed theology teaches that obeying the commandments (namely to love one's neighbor) is the effect of salvation, but the Remonstrants (in conjunction with the RCC) teach that obeying the commandments (in addition to faith) is the cause of salvation.

Paul taught that we are justified by faith alone, which is what the reformers taught, but they had to add to the statement "but not by a faith that is alone," because of those people who confused the definition of the faith that justifies. It's no different than the controversies of the 1st Century that prompted NT writings like James and Galatians. James wrote "faith without works is dead," because of people who were misusing the term "faith" and claiming they were Christians although they had no commitment (or possibly intention) to obey Christ's commands.

Isn't it true that "saving faith" as many in Reformed Theology put it, actually does include acknowledging Jesus as Lord, and being submissive to His will? So then, when Jesus (and the NT writers) command people to do right, to obey the 10 commandments, to be gracious to others, etc., aren't they trying to motivate people to exercising genuine faith in Christ? When Jesus commanded "love your neighbor," isn't it implied that one who has genuine faith in Christ can do so (and wants to do so) because they have the Holy Spirit, as John teaches in 1 Jn. 3:9?

We are saved by grace through faith, which is all (including faith) the gift of God. Grace is the enablement by God to believe the gospel and live according to Christ's commands, is it not?

 

[tdidymas]

I appreciate how hard you work to piece meal what is said so as to confront and ask questions.

Now to answer you question Biblically, the law Paul is talking about In Romans and Galatians is the Law of Moses, which was given by God to Israel in Ex. 20-40 & Lev. 1-7.

The law included the 10 Commandments and all the moral, ceremonial, and civil regulations that governed the life of the people of Israel in their covenant relationship with God. Paul indicates that the entire law can be summed up in one operative word—love.

By faith we believe and accept that Jesus Christ bore the curse of the law when He died on the cross. And through Him we receive the Holy Spirit, who enables us to keep the divine law of love: “Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law” (Romans 13:10,)

Paul’s point is not, “if you want to keep the law, love your neighbor.” He has said repeatedly that the age of the Law is done and over with and the one who is in Christ is free from the Mosaic Law.

My guess is that you are proposing that by loving their neighbor I have somehow kept ALL of the Law of Christ. What motivates YOU to try and prove such a thought???

To me, “loving your neighbor” seems to be the main point here – why do you serve others? If it is to keep a “Law” or because it is “expected of you,” then it is possible you have missed the point altogether.

It seems to me that you are the one being argumentative. Most times when I see someone pointing their finger at me with a false accusation, it is actually their issue.

But my initial point was that your statement saying you (or "we") can't keep the commandments is an erroneous statement, and appears to be something you are now denying in this post. So then do you agree that inability to keep the commandments was at least unclear, if not a false statement?

You challenge me with proving that loving a neighbor "somehow" keeps ALL of the law of Christ - Paul declared, "the whole law is fulfilled in this one word - love your neighbor": do you believe his statement or not?

Are you able to love your neighbor in all the ways that Jesus commanded?