Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Rodger]

As you've concluded NO ONE can know why Cain's sacrifice was rejected.

What we DO know for sure is that he was cursed AFTER he killed Abel.
He was told that sin was crouching at the door and he must master it. Sounds like free will.
He was told the that he should "do well".

As to Hebrews 11:4
The writer, whoever he was, was not in the mind of the writer of Genesis and cannot know, as you've stated, what is not written. BY FAITH is not written anywhere in Genesis 4.

I hope you also believe Hebrews 6:4-6 if you totally trust the writer.

We are not to add to scripture.
Revelation 22:18
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

Yes, Cain was cursed. The "mark" placed on Cain is another one of those anomalies that is really hard to know, if it is indeed to be known.

Some have "assumed" it was a scar, or a tattoo and I have even read where some said it was that he was a black man. That is completely unbiblical.

So what the Bible does not tell us is something that we will not know.

As for Hebrews 6:4-6, yes, of course I believe those Scriptures, But.....as this is another one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation which is why I think you posed the question.

Not only do I understand those Scriptures NOT meaning we can lose our salvation.....with all due respect I am not going to spend any time in trying to convince you or anyone else that we can.

 

[GodsGrace]

I covered much of this already. Be sure to go back and read through my posts starting with post #1,065 on page 54.

I believe I won't be reading your post.
First, I'm not too interested in discussing whether or not someone is/was saved.
Only God knows for sure...I do believe Judas was lost in the end.

Second, nothing you post can change my mind because of your incorrect teachings on scripture.

 

[onlysaved]

We ARE sin?
Is this what you believe?
It's a sad belief onlysaved....

This is what John said.

1 John 3:1 NASB
1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are.

It was poorly worded.. we have sinned, we sin presently and will sin in the future.. human being are totally depraved. Our hearts long for sin all the time. That's why we so desperately need a savior and nothing we do effects or affects our salvation. It is 100% God's work in us.

I agree 100% with you in that "Incorrect theology is always exposed sooner or later".

Just as Matthew 7:21-24 described people in Jesus day, it does the vaery same thing today.

Yes.....Judas was a follower of Jesus for 3 and 1/2 years. However, he failed to see the complete truth of who Jesus is and acknowledge Him as the Savior, the Son of God, the Redeemer, the Messiah, God in the flesh! There is not one single Scripture to suggest that Judas was born again.

There is not one single Scripture that says Judas responded to the salvation available to Him.

He went through all the motions, he evidently said all the right words, had the right passwords on his computer and probably had the Lords picture on his phone, BUT there is NO record of a heart transformation so as to confirm that he was born again.

Speaking only for me, before I would place my feet in a concrete form based on something that is not there, I would think twice about my stance.

IMHO, we can clearly see that Judas's life warns us that mere knowledge of Jesus isn't enough for salvation.

To be saved, born again, It's essential to trust in Him as Savior and Lord, allowing His truth to transform our hearts and lives and make a life commitment to him. Knowing about Jesus without genuine faith leads to spiritual emptiness and, ultimately, destruction. which is exactly what James 2:24 is saying to us. Good works are the result of being born again!

Judas's story compels us to examine our own hearts and ensure that we don't just know about Jesus, but that we trust in Him completely for salvation and follow Him wholeheartedly.

God saves who He wants to save and hardened who He wants to harden.
Judas served a purpose in God's glory to fulfill Prophecy.
If that doesn't make you fear God nothing will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, Cain was cursed. The "mark" placed on Cain is another one of those anomalies that is really hard to know, if it is indeed to be known.

Some have "assumed" it was a scar, or a tattoo and I have even read where some said it was that he was a black man. That is completely unbiblical.

So what the Bible does not tell us is something that we will not know.

Correct.

As for Hebrews 6:4-6, yes, of course I believe those Scriptures, But.....as this is another one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation which is why I think you posed the question.

Neither do I believe it refers to forfeiture of salvation...
although I DO believe salvation can be forfeited.

I brought it up because ALL SCRIPTURE has to agree with all other scripture...
there can be no conflict in the bible.

No faith mentioned in Genesis.
Faith mentioned in Hebrews.

What we DO know is that both believed IN God...
both brought sacrifices.

Not only do I understand those Scriptures NOT meaning we can lose our salvation.....with all due respect I am not going to spend any time in trying to convince you or anyone else that we can.

That's admirable of you.
I don't believe we can convince anyone of anything....I leave that up to the Holy Spirit.
I come here because I enjoy theology/apologetics and enjoy talking about the bible.

 

[Rodger]

The Reformed are very proud to post
John 15:16
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you,

Jesus was speaking to His Apostles...called Disciples at the time but would be called Apostles after Jesus' death and resurrection to distinguish them from the followers of Jesus....

So did Jesus pick Judas?
The reformed state that everyone that Jesus (God) picks is saved....

So was not Judas saved because God picked him?
If Judas had died immediately after being picked,,,would he have been saved or lost?

Unfortunately for Judas, he came to distrust Jesus. He didn't understand what Jesus was doing.
When Jesus said WHAT YOU MUST DO, DO IT QUICKLY, he thought it was a command from Jesus.

His ultimate sin was not asking forgiveness.
It was turning to his humanity and not learn from the time he spent with Jesus.

Peter also did not understand till after the resurrection.
Judas did not give himself the time to see the resurrection.

IF.....IF you are referring to the "Reformed" as something other that the Roman Catholic religion then YES......That is what I are. I am saved by the grace of God and a Southern Baptist by choice because they are as a denomination the closest to the Scriptures.

As for John 15:16, you are "assuming" that I have used that Scripture in some way other than how it was written to the 12 disciples.

You are "working" real hard to prove your opinion. Good Luck with that.

I am saying again, clearly as I can......There are NO Scriptures that say Judas was ever a saved man.

You are free to work up all kinds of scenarios and postulations but in the end, the same thing is true...There are NO Scriptures that say, suggest or validate that Judas was ever a saved man.

It seems to me that YOU have decided that he was so then.....he was !

No need to keep coming up with these scenarios because to ME they are meaningless.

But, enjoy the process.

 

[GodsGrace]

It was poorly worded.. we have sinned, we sin presently and will sin in the future.. human being are totally depraved. Our hearts long for sin all the time. That's why we so desperately need a savior and nothing we do effects or affects our salvation. It is 100% God's work in us.

I hope you know the difference between a sin and practicing sin.
We all will sin now and then...hopefully less and less as our time with God passes and we learn to walk in the spirit.
Galatians 5:16
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Paul tells us to WALK by the Spirit.
Walking is a command for the believer.
A command is to be followed.
A command is given if it can be followed.
It's an action we must perform in obedience to that command.
We could also reject the command and not obey God.
It's a choice we face.

God saves who He wants to save and hardened who He wants to harden.

You're probably referring to Pharaoh.
Yes...God hardened his heart AFTER Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
If someone denies the work of God in their life...
eventually God will give them up to their own lusts.
In this sense, God hardens hearts --- whom He wants to harden.
Romans 1:24
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

Judas served a purpose in God's glory to fulfill Prophecy.
If that doesn't make you fear God nothing will.

I agree that God did use Judas to fulfill a prophecy.
God will always attain HIS goal.

And I believe we're to have a healthy fear of God...
but I feel His love for me more and I trust in His merciful nature/character.

 

[Rodger]

Correct.

Neither do I believe it refers to forfeiture of salvation...
although I DO believe salvation can be forfeited.

I brought it up because ALL SCRIPTURE has to agree with all other scripture...
there can be no conflict in the bible.

No faith mentioned in Genesis.
Faith mentioned in Hebrews.

What we DO know is that both believed IN God...
both brought sacrifices.

That's admirable of you.
I don't believe we can convince anyone of anything....I leave that up to the Holy Spirit.
I come here because I enjoy theology/apologetics and enjoy talking about the bible.

Thank you and after I read what I posted I realize that it sounded like it was a S_ _ _ _T _ _S response so I apologize.

Yes.....Scripture must agree so that there are NO contradictions. This is called the law of non-contradiction. It is the basis of all logical thinking and reasoning. It states that no statement can be true and false at the same time and in the same sense.

Now having said that, we do see in the Scriptures what is called “paradox” which is not a contradiction. Sometimes with some people, this has also been called, “concurrence.”

An example would be......Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility means that God controls everything BUT....we have freedom of choice.

I agree and I am an old retired man now and I enjoy teaching but when the discussion becomes agentive or confrontational....I am out the door.

​

 

[GodsGrace]

IF.....IF you are referring to the "Reformed" as something other that the Roman Catholic religion then YES......That is what I are. I am saved by the grace of God and a Southern Baptist by choice because they are as a denomination the closest to the Scriptures.

As for John 15:16, you are "assuming" that I have used that Scripture in some way other than how it was written to the 12 disciples.

You are "working" real hard to prove your opinion. Good Luck with that.

I am saying again, clearly as I can......There are NO Scriptures that say Judas was ever a saved man.

You are free to work up all kinds of scenarios and postulations but in the end, the same thing is true...There are NO Scriptures that say, suggest or validate that Judas was ever a saved man.

It seems to me that YOU have decided that he was so then.....he was !

No need to keep coming up with these scenarios because to ME they are meaningless.

But, enjoy the process.

Rodger, I'm not sure what you believe...
but let's clarify this:
NOT only the CC does not agree with reformed theology.
Most of Protestantism does not agree with reformed theology.
I refer to the reformed as what reformed means.
The reformation of the 1500's.
Luther's faith alone.
SOLA FIDE
SOLA SCRIPTURA
SOLA GRATIA
SOLUS CHRISTUS
SOLI DEO GLORIA

I agree that the discussion of Judas is not a particularly interesting one...
except that Jesus did send him out on a missionary journey with the other 12
and He did pray also for Him in the Great Priestly Prayer in John.
I do believe he was most probably lost in the end due to Jesus' statement that he was
the son of perdition.

 

[Rodger]

It was poorly worded.. we have sinned, we sin presently and will sin in the future.. human being are totally depraved. Our hearts long for sin all the time. That's why we so desperately need a savior and nothing we do effects or affects our salvation. It is 100% God's work in us.

God saves who He wants to save and hardened who He wants to harden.
Judas served a purpose in God's glory to fulfill Prophecy.
If that doesn't make you fear God nothing will.

It may have not been worded correctly but we need to remember that "Jesus was made sin" for us.

2 Corth. 5:21 ......
“God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.”

Because of all humanities sin condition, “He became sin,” it does not mean Jesus ceased to be righteous or flawless. Rather, in a legal sense, all sin was imputed-or credited-to Him or better said by Isaih......“the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all”.

“Imputation” is a fundamental theological term meaning to attribute something to someone’s account.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you and after I read what I posted I realize that it sounded like it was a S_ _ _ _T _ _S response so I apologize.

Yes.....Scripture must agree so that there are NO contradictions. This is called the law of non-contradiction. It is the basis of all logical thinking and reasoning. It states that no statement can be true and false at the same time and in the same sense.

Now having said that, we do see in the Scriptures what is called “paradox” which is not a contradiction. Sometimes with some people, this has also been called, “concurrence.”

An example would be......Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility means that God controls everything BUT....we have freedom of choice.

I agree and I am an old retired man now and I enjoy teaching but when the discussion becomes agentive or confrontational....I am out the door.

​

Well, looks like we're in the same boat.
I believe convo can be pleasant EVEN IF we don't agree with each other's theology.
I know a member on a different forum that believes in this "paradox" as you call it..he calls it the same.

I have to say that I'm not able to see this paradox in scripture.
Doesn't this mean that scripture does not agree with itself??

You state that God controls everything BUT we have freedom of choice.
No THIS would be an interesting conversatiion !

Doesn't it have to be one or the other?
Are you partially reformed?
Or do you mean like my football game analogy??

 

[onlysaved]

I hope you know the difference between a sin and practicing sin.
We all will sin now and then...hopefully less and less as our time with God passes and we learn to walk in the spirit.
Galatians 5:16
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Paul tells us to WALK by the Spirit.
Walking is a command for the believer.
A command is to be followed.
A command is given if it can be followed.
It's an action we must perform in obedience to that command.
We could also reject the command and not obey God.
It's a choice we face.

You're probably referring to Pharaoh.
Yes...God hardened his heart AFTER Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
If someone denies the work of God in their life...
eventually God will give them up to their own lusts.
In this sense, God hardens hearts --- whom He wants to harden.
Romans 1:24
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.


I agree that God did use Judas to fulfill a prophecy.
God will always attain HIS goal.

And I believe we're to have a healthy fear of God...
but I feel His love for me more and I trust in His merciful nature/character.

Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved.

I think we kid ourselves if we think we don't live in sin, we are however in a perpetual process of refinement in which our sins are dealt with. We may not use born anymore but we move onto something else, maybe even pride in having overcome the porn.. we are all steeped in our own sin but we are on the way out..

 

[Rodger]

Rodger, I'm not sure what you believe...
but let's clarify this:
NOT only the CC does not agree with reformed theology.
Most of Protestantism does not agree with reformed theology.
I refer to the reformed as what reformed means.
The reformation of the 1500's.
Luther's faith alone.
SOLA FIDE
SOLA SCRIPTURA
SOLA GRATIA
SOLUS CHRISTUS
SOLI DEO GLORIA

I agree that the discussion of Judas is not a particularly interesting one...
except that Jesus did send him out on a missionary journey with the other 12
and He did pray also for Him in the Great Priestly Prayer in John.
I do believe he was most probably lost in the end due to Jesus' statement that he was
the son of perdition.

There is nothing I can do about you not knowing what I believe.

I also can do nothing about what some in the Protestant faith believe.

When the term Reformed theology is used, it often refers to something less historical. Often it refers to a theology that acknowledges the doctrine of predestination and holds to a high view of the Bible as God’s inerrant Word.

Sometimes, and this maybe what you are sayin, it is also identified with the so-called five points of Calvinism:
1. total depravity,
2. unconditional election,
3. limited atonement,
4. irresistible grace, and the
5. perseverance of the saints.

Now, just so that you will know about me, I am a 4.0 on the list above and what I do not agree with is #3.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son to those who believe...".

 

[GodsGrace]

Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved.

I think we kid ourselves if we think we don't live in sin, we are however in a perpetual process of refinement in which our sins are dealt with. We may not use born anymore but we move onto something else, maybe even pride in having overcome the porn.. we are all steeped in our own sin but we are on the way out..

Your comments are very interesting.
Let me ask you this: (we might be speaking past each other - it happens often)

If you want to call a believer A SINNER....
Then what's the difference between an unbelieving sinner
and a believer that's a sinner?

Are they both SINNERS?
Are we NOT a child of God that can sin? (1 John chapters 1 and 2)

 

[Rodger]

Well, looks like we're in the same boat.
I believe convo can be pleasant EVEN IF we don't agree with each other's theology.
I know a member on a different forum that believes in this "paradox" as you call it..he calls it the same.

I have to say that I'm not able to see this paradox in scripture.
Doesn't this mean that scripture does not agree with itself??

You state that God controls everything BUT we have freedom of choice.
No THIS would be an interesting conversatiion !

Doesn't it have to be one or the other?
Are you partially reformed?
Or do you mean like my football game analogy??

Sister....do you not see a "paradox" in the God is sovereign and we still have the freedom to choose!

Philippians 3:7 is another......."“But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ”.

Matthew 23:11 is another......."“The greatest among you will be your servant.”

 

[GodsGrace]

There is nothing I can do about you not knowing what I believe.

I also can do nothing about what some in the Protestant faith believe.

When the term Reformed theology is used, it often refers to something less historical. Often it refers to a theology that acknowledges the doctrine of predestination and holds to a high view of the Bible as God’s inerrant Word.

Sometimes, and this maybe what you are sayin, it is also identified with the so-called five points of Calvinism:
1. total depravity,
2. unconditional election,
3. limited atonement,
4. irresistible grace, and the
5. perseverance of the saints.

Now, just so that you will know about me, I am a 4.0 on the list above and what I do not agree with is #3.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son to those who believe...".

Good to know Rodger.
I do connect the 5 points to the reformed faith. I also call it Calvinism at times, I'm sure you know why.
And I respect that you don't agree with no. 3.....even some reformed theologians believe no. 3 is too extreme and do not agree with it.

I believe that all Christians hold the bible in a high position as the word of God.
As to predestination...yes, the word is in the bible but does not refer to the salvation of individual person...

I also love that you posted John 3:16 but, alas , the reformed have their own understanding of this verse.

But let's not discuss now. I'm sure the occasion will come along.
All with love and respect please. (should the time arise).

 

[GodsGrace]

Sister....do you not see a "paradox" in the God is sovereign and we still have the freedom to choose!

Philippians 3:7 is another......."“But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ”.

Matthew 23:11 is another......."“The greatest among you will be your servant.”

What you have posted is good...but I don't see THOSE verses as a paradox.

I got this for paradox:
a seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true.

So, IOW, I could explain away your supposed verses which are a paradox.
I CANNOT explain away how God would decree everything, and yet man still has free will.
IOW,,, THAT is what I would call a conflict. (maybe used the word incorrectly at some point).

 

[Rodger]

Your comments are very interesting.
Let me ask you this: (we might be speaking past each other - it happens often)

If you want to call a believer A SINNER....
Then what's the difference between an unbelieving sinner
and a believer that's a sinner?

Are they both SINNERS?
Are we NOT a child of God that can sin? (1 John chapters 1 and 2)

I know this one.

Romans 3:23....."All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Does "ALL" mean ALL people? YES!

Thne we have a Paradox.

All have sinned......But all that accept Jesus are saved....but we are still sinners!

The answer is actually simple.......
A born again sinner is FORGIVEN of his sin because Jesus paid the price of death for him.
His past sins were forgiven, his present sins are being forgiven and his future sin will be forgiven.

 

[Rodger]

What you have posted is good...but I don't see THOSE verses as a paradox.

I got this for paradox:
a seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true.

So, IOW, I could explain away your supposed verses which are a paradox.
I CANNOT explain away how God would decree everything, and yet man still has free will.
IOW,,, THAT is what I would call a conflict. (maybe used the word incorrectly at some point).

The word PARADOX is used instead of the word "Conflict".

Conflict gives the impression of an error or mistake. Paradox means that what we are talking about "Seems" to be a problem, but all that is needed is a little more study of that topic.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know this one.

Romans 3:23....."All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Does "ALL" mean ALL people? YES!

Thne we have a Paradox.

All have sinned......But all that accept Jesus are saved....but we are still sinners!

The answer is actually simple.......
A born again sinner is FORGIVEN of his sin because Jesus paid the price of death for him.
His past sins were forgiven, his present sins are being forgiven and his future sin will be forgiven.

Could you read my post no. 1153 and tell me your opinion?

Are we sinners or children of God that sin??

 

[GodsGrace]

The word PARADOX is used instead of the word "Conflict".

Conflict gives the impression of an error or mistake. Paradox means that what we are talking about "Seems" to be a problem, but all that is needed is a little more study of that topic.

Agreed.
But, yes, I do see CONFLICT in reformed theology.
But not tonight Rodger!
It's really late here.
Looking forward to your reply to my post no. 1159.
'night.