Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[GodsGrace]

Authentic obedience produced out of faith is not salvation by works.

Sure it is.
What else would we produce out of salvation?
If you argue re obedience, page after page, year after year,
it means you don't believe works have any part in your salvation.
This is 97% of what Jesus taught.
No one's fault if you don't believe Jesus.

Jesus did not teach works righteousness and neither did Paul in Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9.

What is work's righteousness?
You mean works done by our own righteousness?
I don't know any Christian that believes works OUTSIDE OF FAITH are works of righteousness.
Are works INSIDE OF FAITH righteous?
Yes.
They are.
And we will be judged by our works.

Revelation 22:12 NASB
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done .


2 Timothy 2:22
22So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

Actually, I did not leave out Ephesians 2:10. Did you read my entire post?

Yes, we are saved FOR good works and of course God expects us to do good works.

So why are we debating??

Paul did not merely say not saved by specific works under the law only. Paul said not saved by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians) not justified by works of the Law (Romans 3:24-28; Galatians 2:16) not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5) He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9) so we are not saved by works in general.

There must be a lot of conflict in scripture....
because the verses I posted above SEEM to differ...

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Correct.
We are to love our neighbor.
This will produce works.

Or do you think LOVE ALONE will feed our neighbor?

Now which good works could a Christian do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

I never discuss the Law of Moses.
I'm not under the Law.
I don't know any Christian that is.

You like to deflect.

So, would you detach these works of love from Matthew 22:37-40? The have nothing to do with loving God and our neighbor as ourselves?

So, would you detach work heartily as for the Lord from Matthew 22:37-40?

Apparently YOU detach works from everything...
OR
We wouldn't still be debating this.

So, would you detach doing good from Matthew 22:37-40?

I did not read must or else in those verses on works. Jesus is not a tyrant.

I guess Jesus is a tyrant then.
Since what GOD TELLS US TO DO
is a COMMAND.

Perhaps you don't have the proper respect for God.
Perhaps you believe you can take what verses you like,
and leave the rest behind.

In John 13:34-35, Jesus emphasizes that love for one another is a characteristic of being a disciple. We love because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) In Matthew 5:16, we read - In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. This is not accomplished apart from love. Hebrews 10:24 - And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works. In 1 Corinthians 13 we read that if we have not love we are nothing and we are to abide in faith, hope and love but the greatest of these is love, and love is a central theme throughout scripture.

In Galatians 5:6, we read that faith works/is expressed through love. Faith is demonstrated through acts of love. In Galatians 5:14, we read - For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” How can we love our neighbor as ourselves if we are not motivated by love?

In regard to gratitude or thanksgiving, in 2 Corinthians 4:15, we read - For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God. 2 Corinthians 9:12 - For the administration of this service not only supplies the needs of the saints but also is abounding through many thanksgivings to God. Ephesians 5:20 exhorts us to give thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Colossians 4:2 exhorts us to continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving. So, you are not motivated one bit by love and gratitude/thanksgiving to serve the Lord?

We give thanks always.
So?
What has our thanksgiving have to do with obeyìng what Jesus taught?

A spiritual and vital connection with the vine is must or else which is saved or else. Only with that spiritual and vital connection can we abide in the vine and bear fruit. Those who fail to abide and bear fruit demonstrate they have a cosmic connection with the vine, like Judas Iscariot. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11; 17:12)

No....
That's NOT what John 15:1 states.

It simply states that those that are IN CHRIST,,,,in the vine....
that do not produce fruit....
WILL BE CUT OFF.

No getting around it.

And I tire of this conversation which brings no glory to God.
But only teaches new Christians that working for God is an option...
It is NOT an option.

I didn't post scripture because, apparently, there is a different understanding of scripture for some.

end.

 

[mailmandan]

Sure it is.
What else would we produce out of salvation?

So, you admit that you teach salvation by works/you are trusting in works for salvation (at least in part)?

If you argue re obedience, page after page, year after year,
it means you don't believe works have any part in your salvation.

Works are the fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

This is 97% of what Jesus taught.
No one's fault if you don't believe Jesus.

I believe Jesus. I just don't believe your eisegesis.

What is work's righteousness?
You mean works done by our own righteousness?
I don't know any Christian that believes works OUTSIDE OF FAITH are works of righteousness.

Works of righteousness refer to good works commanded by God that are done out of righteousness. It's a form of self-righteousness to believe that our salvation can be earned or sustained by good works.

Are works INSIDE OF FAITH righteous?
Yes.
They are.
And we will be judged by our works.

Without faith it's impossible to please God. Good works are produced out of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards and loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

Revelation 22:12 NASB
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done .

Reward. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) Salvation is a gift (Ephesians 2:8) and not a reward that we work for and earn.

2 Timothy 2:22
22So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

Amen! Onward upward in our progressive sanctification.

So why are we debating??

You believe that salvation is sustained by works (and possibly obtained as well). I believe we are saved by grace through faith, not works.

There must be a lot of conflict in scripture....
because the verses I posted above SEEM to differ...

We need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

Correct.
We are to love our neighbor.
This will produce works.

Amen!

Or do you think LOVE ALONE will feed our neighbor?

Neglecting our neighbor who is in need of food or clothing would not be loving them.

I never discuss the Law of Moses.
I'm not under the Law.
I don't know any Christian that is.

You like to deflect.

I was simply making a point about the moral aspect of the Law of Moses.

Apparently YOU detach works from everything...
OR
We wouldn't still be debating this.

No, I simply put good works in their proper place. Subsequent to regeneration and salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

I guess Jesus is a tyrant then.

As a Roman Catholic I basically saw God as a tyrant, but not anymore. I now see Him as a loving Father.

Since what GOD TELLS US TO DO
is a COMMAND.

Sure, but how many of us are sinless? (Romans 3:23) Imperfect obedience cannot save us, but Jesus can. (Romans 6:23)

Perhaps you don't have the proper respect for God.
Perhaps you believe you can take what verses you like,
and leave the rest behind.

In regard to fearing God, I prefer a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not measuring up. That is an unhealthy fear which is not from above.

We give thanks always.
So?
What has our thanksgiving have to do with obeyìng what Jesus taught?

Don't you obey Jesus out of thanksgiving at all? Are you only motivated by boot quaking fear?

No....
That's NOT what John 15:1 states.

It simply states that those that are IN CHRIST,,,,in the vine....
that do not produce fruit....
WILL BE CUT OFF.

Like Judas Iscariot. Cosmic connection. I already thoroughly covered John 15 with you in post #560.

No getting around it.

And I tire of this conversation which brings no glory to God.
But only teaches new Christians that working for God is an option...
It is NOT an option.

I didn't post scripture because, apparently, there is a different understanding of scripture for some.

end.

We need to keep things balanced. We are not saved by works yet we are also saved to serve and not saved to sit.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, you admit that you teach salvation by works/you are trusting in works for salvation (at least in part)?

Works are the fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

I believe Jesus. I just don't believe your eisegesis.

Works of righteousness refer to good works commanded by God that are done out of righteousness. It's a form of self-righteousness to believe that our salvation can be earned or sustained by good works.

Without faith it's impossible to please God. Good works are produced out of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Believers will be judged by their works to determine rewards and loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

Reward. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) Salvation is a gift (Ephesians 2:8) and not a reward that we work for and earn.

Amen! Onward upward in our progressive sanctification.

You believe that salvation is sustained by works (and possibly obtained as well). I believe we are saved by grace through faith, not works.

We need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

Amen!

Neglecting our neighbor who is in need of food or clothing would not be loving them.

I was simply making a point about the moral aspect of the Law of Moses.

No, I simply put good works in their proper place. Subsequent to regeneration and salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

As a Roman Catholic I basically saw God as a tyrant, but not anymore. I now see Him as a loving Father.

Sure, but how many of us are sinless? (Romans 3:23) Imperfect obedience cannot save us, but Jesus can. (Romans 6:23)

In regard to fearing God, I prefer a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not measuring up. That is an unhealthy fear which is not from above.

Don't you obey Jesus out of thanksgiving at all? Are you only motivated by boot quaking fear?

Like Judas Iscariot. Cosmic connection. I already thoroughly covered John 15 with you in post #560.

We need to keep things balanced. We are not saved by works yet we are also saved to serve and not saved to sit.

I don't believe in keeping things balanced.
I believe in obeying God.

So, bottom line....
Did Jesus command us to do good works or not??

 

[mailmandan]

I don't believe in keeping things balanced.
I believe in obeying God.

So, bottom line....
Did Jesus command us to do good works or not??

You don't believe in righly dividing the word of truth? (2 Timothy 2:15) We should all obey God yet none of us have perfectly obeyed Him. Jesus commanded us to do good works yet we are still saved for good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[JLB]

We should all obey God yet none of us have perfectly obeyed Him.

Agreed. Amen.


If you should sin, do you believe we need to confess our sins to be forgiven?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

 

[mailmandan]

If we confess our sins (1 John 1:9) is in contrast with if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and if we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

 

[JLB]

If we confess our sins (1 John 1:9) is in contrast with if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and if we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

Is that a yes or no?

If you should sin, do you believe we need to confess our sins to be forgiven?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

 

[mailmandan]

Is that a yes or no?

If you should sin, do you believe we need to confess our sins to be forgiven?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

You are ignoring 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10. Have I confessed my sins (1 John 1:9) in contrast with saying I have no sin (1 John 1:8) or have not sinned? (1 John 1:10) - YES.

DO I confess each and every sin that I have ever committed (keep a specific inventory) as a legalistic prescription to remain cleansed and if I forget a sin I'm toast? - NO.

Although I do keep short accounts with God, who could actually write an exhaustive list of every sin they have ever committed or ever will commit? Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17)

Believers "confess" (Greek - homologeó) speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast with saying that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[Rodger]

No Rodger....
mailmandan stated the following in post 1196:
"Your theory on the obedience of faith culminates in salvation by works. "

Mailmandan believes that if we do the good works/deeds which Jesus commanded us to do,,,,
AFTER salvation....AFTER justification....we are believing in salvation by works.

Simply put....he does not believe that we are commanded to do good works.
There are some that believe this, but it is NOT what Jesus taught.

Jesus taught that we are to do good works to further the Kingdom of God on earth.
We were created for good works....
Ephesians 2:10

NOT the works of The Law. We are not under the Law.
Good works....loving our neighbor, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, etc.
What JESUS told us to do.

Here is the difference between us:
I believe we MUST OBEY God's commandments....
God expects us to obey His commandments.

Some feel that they do the works from gratitude...
Some feel that good works are not even necessary.

I believe we should be very clear about what Jesus taught.

I agree in that we need to be clear on what God taught.

I dont think that what you stated is what "mailmandan" said. I am sure he can clear that up.

This is and has been a circular conversation for a long time. People on the left will always be on the left and those on the right will always be on the right because we are all consumed with pride and we can not admitt we are wrong.

YES...it is just that simple which is why there is always such arguments on Christian forums.

James 2:24 tells us that We should do good works after we are saved, because we are saved, not to be saved. That is as clear as it can be.

That is not out of gratitude but due to the fact that it is validation that we are saved which produces a "changed life".

Now, having said that, the Bible DOES NOT say that we are to do good works to be saved and it does not say that we have to do good works to stay saved. Good works do not produce salvation.
However good works are the product of salvation.

I know you do not agree with that and there is no reason for you to respond to this or challege me as we are both sure of what we have been taught and practiced.

I would only ask you to consider......if your father had been a lost man and then on his death bed, he accepted the Lord Jesus Christ, he then died without being able to do one single good deed......
was he saved?

Then another is the thief on the cross. What good deed did he do? He accepted Christ, Christ said TODAY you will be in Paradise and he died! Does that make Jesus a liar?

 

[Rodger]

Exactly. I said that.

Now I ask you.

… if a person obeys the Gospel of Jesus Christ, are they being saved by their works?

Brother......you are working hard to try and prove a "Personal" belief that you have or someone told you.

I have personally posted this to you several times now. God has always required man's faith and obedience to His Divine call in every dispensation. Faith and obedience go hand in hand.
God has stated that in order for men to be saved, they must accept the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So again, may I say to you that what you are saying is simply an act of "semantics".

To obey the gospel is to believe it, to accept that Jesus is the Savior. It is not IMHO an act or work or a good deed. If it was then we must remove all the Scriptures that tell us we are saved by grace WITHOUT WORKS. Peter speaks of those who do not believe the gospel, that is, those who in obstinate unbelief reject the message that God revealed through His Son. Peter says that the judgment faced by unbelievers will be harsh.

You are cemented in the idea that the act of Accepting Jesus as the Christ is an act that means we did something to be saved.

Good luck with that. I do not agree, and never will. I see no reason to continue this topic with you.

Go in peace and love.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are ignoring 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10. Have I confessed my sins (1 John 1:9) in contrast with saying I have no sin (1 John 1:8) or have not sinned? (1 John 1:10) - YES.

DO I confess each and every sin that I have ever committed (keep a specific inventory) as a legalistic prescription to remain cleansed and if I forget a sin I'm toast? - NO.

Although I do keep short accounts with God, who could actually write an exhaustive list of every sin they have ever committed or ever will commit? Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17)

Believers "confess" (Greek - homologeó) speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast with saying that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. (1 John 1:8-10)

Why do you find it so difficult to obey God?

We are to ask forgiveness of our sins.
John said we must confess our sins:

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

IF we confess our sins...present tense....
God is faithful and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us.

 

[Walpole]

Why do you find it so difficult to obey God?

We are to ask forgiveness of our sins.
John said we must confess our sins:

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

IF we confess our sins...present tense....
God is faithful and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome." (1 John 5:3)

 

[mailmandan]

Why do you find it so difficult to obey God?

We are to ask forgiveness of our sins.
John said we must confess our sins:

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

IF we confess our sins...present tense....
God is faithful and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us.

I already covered this in post #1,228. I'm not disobeying God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree in that we need to be clear on what God taught.

I dont think that what you stated is what "mailmandan" said. I am sure he can clear that up.

He hasn't cleared it up in 10 years, so I doubt it'll happen today.
I don't find it difficult to state that we MUST OBEY GOD.
Do YOU find it difficult??

This is and has been a circular conversation for a long time. People on the left will always be on the left and those on the right will always be on the right because we are all consumed with pride and we can not admitt we are wrong.

So if I admit I'm wrong...I am not proudful?
OK.
Seems like one of us MUST necessarily be wrong....
I'm sure sometimes even you are wrong.

YES...it is just that simple which is why there is always such arguments on Christian forums.

James 2:24 tells us that We should do good works after we are saved, because we are saved, not to be saved. That is as clear as it can be.

I agree. We are to do good works AFTER we are saved.
I've never stated otherwise.
Doing works BEFORE we are saved is useless because works do not save us.

That is not out of gratitude but due to the fact that it is validation that we are saved which produces a "changed life".

Here we separate.
I don't do anything to validate anything.
God knows what I'm doing for the Kingdom and when I fall short.
Jesus taught us to work for GOD and not for validation from other persons:

Matthew 6:1-2 NASB
1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
2 "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Matthew 6:5-6
5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
Colossians 3:23
23 Whatever * you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than * for men,,,

Now, having said that, the Bible DOES NOT say that we are to do good works to be saved and it does not say that we have to do good works to stay saved. Good works do not produce salvation.
However good works are the product of salvation.

I'd say that Jesus taught that we are to do good works.
I'd say that if we do NOT we are disobeying Jesus, Paul and every writer of the NT.
They are certainly the product of our salvation...but Jesus warns us that they MUST be done:

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

The scripture I post is plain and simple to understand and requires no further comment.
JESUS stated that we will be judged by our good works.

I think Jesus knew what He meant.

I know you do not agree with that and there is no reason for you to respond to this or challege me as we are both sure of what we have been taught and practiced.

I haven't been taught too much.
I left one church 40 years ago,,,
and lately have become non-denominational.
I read scripture as it is written and scripture does indeed explain itself.

But we like to read into scripture what we believe
and twist it to say what it does not say.

I would only ask you to consider......if your father had been a lost man and then on his death bed, he accepted the Lord Jesus Christ, he then died without being able to do one single good deed......
was he saved?

What a silly question.
Was the thief on the cross saved?

Are Jesus' teachings so difficult to comprehend?

Then another is the thief on the cross. What good deed did he do? He accepted Christ, Christ said TODAY you will be in Paradise and he died! Does that make Jesus a liar?

I don't respond well to silly questions.

 

[GodsGrace]

I already covered this in post #1,228. I'm not disobeying God.

Oh.
You COVERED it....
So good.

So are we required to do good deeds as Jesus taught or not?

A simple YES or NO would do....
but you're unable to make this simple.

I say YES...
We are required to obey God.
Jesus left us with COMMANDS which are not requests.
Commands by God require good works, in some fashion or other,
and He expects us to obey Him.

 

[Rodger]

He hasn't cleared it up in 10 years, so I doubt it'll happen today.
I don't find it difficult to state that we MUST OBEY GOD.
Do YOU find it difficult??


So if I admit I'm wrong...I am not proudful?
OK.
Seems like one of us MUST necessarily be wrong....
I'm sure sometimes even you are wrong.

I agree. We are to do good works AFTER we are saved.
I've never stated otherwise.
Doing works BEFORE we are saved is useless because works do not save us.

Here we separate.
I don't do anything to validate anything.
God knows what I'm doing for the Kingdom and when I fall short.
Jesus taught us to work for GOD and not for validation from other persons:

Matthew 6:1-2 NASB
1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
2 "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Matthew 6:5-6
5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
Colossians 3:23
23 Whatever * you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than * for men,,,

I'd say that Jesus taught that we are to do good works.
I'd say that if we do NOT we are disobeying Jesus, Paul and every writer of the NT.
They are certainly the product of our salvation...but Jesus warns us that they MUST be done:

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

The scripture I post is plain and simple to understand and requires no further comment.
JESUS stated that we will be judged by our good works.

I think Jesus knew what He meant.


I haven't been taught too much.
I left one church 40 years ago,,,
and lately have become non-denominational.
I read scripture as it is written and scripture does indeed explain itself.

But we like to read into scripture what we believe
and twist it to say what it does not say.

What a silly question.
Was the thief on the cross saved?

Are Jesus' teachings so difficult to comprehend?

I don't respond well to silly questions.

Way toooo long of a post for me to respond to. Glad to do so if you want to ask one question at a time.

 

[GodsGrace]

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome." (1 John 5:3)

Amen.
But some must find them very difficult to keep because this debate has been raging on for years on this Forum.

 

[GodsGrace]

Way toooo long of a post for me to respond to. Glad to do so if you want to ask one question at a time.

Easy.
I showed you WITH SCRIPTURE that we work for GOD,,,,
and not as evidence toward man...
and definitely not as evidence toward God..since God does not require "evidence".
You had stated that we do good works as "evidence".
No. We do good works because we are obeying Jesus' commandments.

Then I showed you WITH SCRIPTURE that we will be judged by our good works.

Then you asked a couple of silly questions:
1. If a person dies on their death bed and seek salvation..will they be saved?
2. Was the thief on the cross saved because he couldn't do a good work?

You could just reply to the EVIDENCE part and forget about the silly questions part.

 

[Walpole]

Amen.
But some must find them very difficult to keep because this debate has been raging on for years on this Forum.

Makes you wonder who we are talking to on here. Do people really have a hard time not lying, not committing adultery, not murdering, etc.?

 

[GodsGrace]

Makes you wonder who we are talking to on here. Do people really have a hard time not lying, not committing adultery, not murdering, etc.?

Correct.
Is there a problem understanding the difference between works of the Law and good works?
Maybe the commandments Jesus left us are considered to be requests?
Perhaps synergism is not correctly understood - A good relationship requires 2 persons each doing what is necessary for that relationship to function. God certainly keeps HIS promises...do we?
Sanctification (or on-going justification) is it a process? Or are we already totally converted??

Incorrect doctrine creates many questions that should not even exist.