Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Rodger]

Easy.
I showed you WITH SCRIPTURE that we work for GOD,,,,
and not as evidence toward man...
and definitely not as evidence toward God..since God does not require "evidence".
You had stated that we do good works as "evidence".
No. We do good works because we are obeying Jesus' commandments.

Then I showed you WITH SCRIPTURE that we will be judged by our good works.

Then you asked a couple of silly questions:
1. If a person dies on their death bed and seek salvation..will they be saved?
2. Was the thief on the cross saved because he couldn't do a good work?

You could just reply to the EVIDENCE part and forget about the silly questions part.

I will give you the fact that you posted some Scriptures which "YOU" believe validate what you have been told. I do not agree with your understanding of their meaning.

I believe that we do good works after we are saved out of the Love we have for what God did for us. IF...IF you believe that to be an act of obedience....OK with me as I do not see either side as being a essential to salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I will give you the fact that you posted some Scriptures which "YOU" believe validate what you have been told. I do not agree with your understanding of their meaning.

I believe that we do good works after we are saved out of the Love we have for what God did for us. IF...IF you believe that to be an act of obedience....OK with me as I do not see either side as being a essential to salvation.

WHAT is not an essential to salvation?


And what do YOU think this scripture means? (it would be interesting to know).

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

[mailmandan]

Oh.
You COVERED it....
So good.

So are we required to do good deeds as Jesus taught or not?

A simple YES or NO would do....
but you're unable to make this simple.

I already said YES multiple times. Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

That still does not mean we are saved by works. Do you believe we are saved FOR good works or BY good works? If you believe the latter, how many good works does it take to save us?

I say YES...
We are required to obey God.
Jesus left us with COMMANDS which are not requests.
Commands by God require good works, in some fashion or other,
and He expects us to obey Him.

We are required to obey God and His commands are not merely suggestions, but we are still not saved by works. (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

It would take sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time in order for us to receive salvation by works, which is a big fail for all of us. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)

 

[mailmandan]

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good - John 5:28-29) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

*Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

 

[JLB]

Brother......you are working hard to try and prove a "Personal" belief that you have or someone told you.

Yes. It’s a personal belief that the anointing taught me directly from the scriptures.

My Bible says we must go beyond believing alone, but must actually obey what we hear, by which we receive faith.

Believe and confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Believe and therefore obey.

Believing without obeying is what demons do.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If your kingdom is being overthrown by a stronger kingdom, and they say confess the king of our kingdom as your king or perish, then you must obey their gospel or die.

It does you no good to believe that king is superior, you must confess him as your king and submit to him or perish along with those who refuse to submit.

 

[tdidymas]

Agreed.
You shouldn't debate something you don't understand.

And a shift in your attitude would be nice.

What an adolescent response. It's obvious that I understand the subject matter since I can explain it. The more you respond, the more you prove that you just can't admit you could be wrong.

 

[tdidymas]

Could you share the scriptures that teach us that Judas didn’t “spiritually” hear Jesus and therefore didn’t “spiritually” follow Jesus?

I just did - "you are not My sheep..." - so since Judas was "the son of perdition," he was NOT Jesus' sheep, and so did NOT hear His voice. But of course, since you aren't familiar with scripture, you don't know where I'm getting this, no? And/or you can't see the flawless logic because - I suspect that you're willfully blind to it.

 

[JLB]

I just did - "you are not My sheep..." - so since Judas was "the son of perdition," he was NOT Jesus' sheep, and so did NOT hear His voice. But of course, since you aren't familiar with scripture, you don't know where I'm getting this, no? And/or you can't see the flawless logic because - I suspect that you're willfully blind to it.

I asked you for scripture, that says “Judas didn’t “spiritually” hear Jesus and therefore didn’t “spiritually” follow Jesus”.

What is the context of the phrase “you are not my sheep”.

Here let me provide it for you.

• Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep,

Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
John 10:22-29

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Judas heard His Voice and followed Him for three and a half years then Judas chose to walk away from Christ and there he became lost.

Just exactly like Jesus taught in the parable of the prodigal son and the lost sheep.

Peter returned like the story of the prodigal son.

Judas was overcome by guilt and committed suicide and never returned and was never restored.

Jesus gave specific instructions about this matter concerning a sheep who became lost.


Why don’t we discuss what the scriptures have to say about these things, and maybe we can come to some kind of understanding?

 

[GodsGrace]

What an adolescent response. It's obvious that I understand the subject matter since I can explain it. The more you respond, the more you prove that you just can't admit you could be wrong.

Are you still in kindergarten tdidymas?
Why don't you reply to my posts instead?
Guess it's problematic for you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I already said YES multiple times. Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

That still does not mean we are saved by works. Do you believe we are saved FOR good works or BY good works? If you believe the latter, how many good works does it take to save us?

What an old story Dan.
QUIT while you're ahead.
Let's go with your first sentence.
You replied YES to the question:
Are good works required AFTER we're saved.

Thanks.

We are required to obey God and His commands are not merely suggestions, but we are still not saved by works. (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

It would take sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time in order for us to receive salvation by works, which is a big fail for all of us. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)

I'll stop here.

 

[mailmandan]

I just did - "you are not My sheep..." - so since Judas was "the son of perdition," he was NOT Jesus' sheep, and so did NOT hear His voice. But of course, since you aren't familiar with scripture, you don't know where I'm getting this, no? And/or you can't see the flawless logic because - I suspect that you're willfully blind to it.

John 6:64 - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

That says it all for me. Regardless of what Judas may have believed "about" Jesus (even the demons believe certain things "about" Jesus) but Judas still did not truly believe in Jesus unto salvation and become a child of God (John 1:12) but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12) In John 13:10, Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”

That sums it up for Judas Iscariot.

 

[GodsGrace]

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good - John 5:28-29) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

*Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

Let's look at the verses again and let's not ADD anything to them:

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


YOU added the words BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS.
I don't see these words in what JESUS stated.
HE stated that those that did good deeds will come forth to a resurrection of life.
HE stated that those who committed evil deeds will come forth to a resurrection of judgment.
JESUS is speaking about doing good deeds and being saved in the end.
I don't see any words regarding being born again or being believers or unbelievers.
JESUS taught good works for the entirety of His ministry.


Jesus also taught who is a wise man and who is a foolish man.
It is the OBEYING of Jesus that makes one wise or foolish.


The wise man;:
Matthew 7:24 NASB
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.


The foolish man:
Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

 

[Walpole]

Correct.
Is there a problem understanding the difference between works of the Law and good works?
Maybe the commandments Jesus left us are considered to be requests?
Perhaps synergism is not correctly understood - A good relationship requires 2 persons each doing what is necessary for that relationship to function. God certainly keeps HIS promises...do we?
Sanctification (or on-going justification) is it a process? Or are we already totally converted??

Incorrect doctrine creates many questions that should not even exist.

Yes, it's sad to see. They want no culpability and their faith alone doctrine offers them that ticket.

 

[mailmandan]

Let's look at the verses again and let's not ADD anything to them:

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

YOU added the words BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS.

The Bible makes a clear distinction between believers and unbelievers using 'descriptive' language in John 5:28-29.

John 3:18 - “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. So, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, (descriptive of believers or unbelievers?) and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (descriptive of believers or unbelievers?) It's a rhetorical question.

So, once again, *notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation are described as those who have done evil. It's obvious who the believers and unbelievers are in John 5:28-29.

The Bible further draws a contrast between believers and unbelievers using 'descriptive' language n 1 John 3:7-10. Children of God practice righteousness and not sin and love their brother. That is not said of children of the devil. In 1 John 2:9-11, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

I don't see these words in what JESUS stated.
HE stated that those that did good deeds will come forth to a resurrection of life.
HE stated that those who committed evil deeds will come forth to a resurrection of judgment.
JESUS is speaking about doing good deeds and being saved in the end.
I don't see any words regarding being born again or being believers or unbelievers.
JESUS taught good works for the entirety of His ministry.

Jesus is using 'descriptive' language in order to describe believers and unbelievers.

Jesus also taught who is a wise man and who is a foolish man.
It is the OBEYING of Jesus that makes one wise or foolish.

More 'descriptive' language.

The wise man;:
Matthew 7:24 NASB
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

The foolish man:
Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Who hears these words of Jesus and acts on them and builds their house on the rock? Believers.
Who hears these words of Jesus and does not act on them and builds their house on sand? Unbelievers.

 

[Rodger]

Yes. It’s a personal belief that the anointing taught me directly from the scriptures.

My Bible says we must go beyond believing alone, but must actually obey what we hear, by which we receive faith.

Believe and confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Believe and therefore obey.

Believing without obeying is what demons do.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If your kingdom is being overthrown by a stronger kingdom, and they say confess the king of our kingdom as your king or perish, then you must obey their gospel or die.

It does you no good to believe that king is superior, you must confess him as your king and submit to him or perish along with those who refuse to submit.

You have made that comment before and I understand you. However, IMHO You've fallen into a common trap of examining a single piece of a theological system by importing that piece into your own construct rather than seeing how it fits into its own context.

Speaking only to your opinion that accepting Christ is an act of work because we made a choice flys in the face of a multitude of Scriptures say the opposite. That right there is the problem.

Brother, our salvation depends solely upon Jesus Christ. He is our substitute, taking sin’s penalty; He is our Savior from sin; He is the author and finisher of our faith.

The work necessary to provide salvation was fully accomplished by Jesus Himself, who lived a perfect life, took God’s judgment for sin, and rose again from the dead.

Personally, I do not care if you think the Holy Spirit taught "you" something that He did not teach anyone else or that a frog told you what you believe.

True faith cannot be considered a work because true faith involves a cessation of our works in the flesh. True faith has as its object Jesus and His work on our behalf and there is nothing we can add to that which includes your thinking that your act of accepting Jesus as the Christ is a "WORK"!

 

[JLB]

True faith cannot be considered a work because true faith involves a cessation of our works in the flesh.

First of all I never said faith was a work.

None of my posts have ever sad that.

Faith is a gift from God.

Faith only comes from God.

Faith comes by hearing God speak to us.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

Obedience to what God speaks to us to do is how faith is activated; made alive.

In salvation the obedience we are required to do is repent.

The way we repent is to confess Jesus as Lord.

That is how we obey the Gospel.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rodger is this really so hard for you to understand?


I’ll bet I have repeated this several hundred times over the years on this forum.