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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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C
Collier
Guest
First let me address Merry and the topic of the greek word "psallo". I am not the greek scholar but allow me to provide a link to an article written by a man much more knowledgeable than I am. http://www.forthright.net/basic_greek_language_study/psallo.htmStoveBolts and NRoof; I am glad ya'll realize this is not a trivial topic. Allow me to ask a question to you two before I try and respond to the other post. Must we have God's approval for what we do in worship to Him?
I think we have to do what is pleasing to God and within Gods word. Again there is nothing written either for or against this. For this reason I see no reason to restrict how someone worships. I see both methods discussed here as being pleasing and acceptable to God thus not imposing any restriction that God didn't intend.Collier said:
One of the hardest things I've had to learn is that God will and does convict each of us differently in certain areas. He doesn't do this to confuse us but because he knows what each of us needs to best serve him.
I'd like to ask you a question if I may.
If I'm driving home from work, listening to a Christian radio station, and a song comes on that moves me to sing and in the process praise and worship God, Am I sinning or is this pleasing to God?
C
Collier
Guest
Hey NRoof! Thanks for the question and I will get to it when I have time. From now until Monday I will be pretty busy but I will try to get time to respond but I beg your patience for the moment.I did want to leave this link for anyone who believes instrumental music is acceptable in worship. The articles only take a few minutes to read and there are other links to different articles near the end of the page. Let me encourage you to take the time to read them as it will help you better understand my position. After reading them, we will be able to discuss this topic with a better understanding of each other's position.http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/responseOnInstrumentalMusic.htm
First, I will admit that perhaps I was wrong in saying that this is a trivial topic. It clearly shows how people can misuse the Bible to hold to false doctrine and teaching. Yes, God is concerned about about us and what concerns us, but he also expects us to use the minds he gave us when reading and interpreting his Word. Certainly he is just as concerned, or even moreso, about false teaching.
The problem is this, and it is a huge problem in Evangelicalism: it is commonly believed that "if it isn't in the Bible, it is not of God". But this is blatantly false and absurd. Such a view is typically supported by "don't add to God's Word." This is trying to justify a false belief by twisting Scripture. I have proved this with the use of church buildings and now NRoof's question has brought up some excellent point as well - if certain instruments and even certain kinds of music aren't in the Bible, then they must all not be of God and we should stop listening to music all together. Really, this kind of thinking could go on ad nauseam.
Not that I blame anyone in here for holding such views since they have been around for a long time and are held by the majority of Evangelicals. It seems to appeal to the "we-are-more-holy-because-we-only-believe-God's-Word" mentality. As I stated earlier, it is based on a very wrong understanding of Sola Scriptura.
No one is arguing against worship needing to be of the heart; that is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not playing instruments in worship contradicts the Bible, and clearly it does not. It would also be absurd to think that Jews, who have a long history of worshiping God through music, would suddenly quit at the coming of the Messiah, at a point in time when they should be the most joyous and celibratory.
Revelation 5:8-10, "8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, 10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
I find it very difficult, impossible actually, to believe that God would want, or allow, the Israelites to worship him with instruments in the OT and have angels worshiping with instruments in heaven, but then not want the NT Church or us to worship him when we have far more reason then the Israelites did and just as much as the angels.
The problem is this, and it is a huge problem in Evangelicalism: it is commonly believed that "if it isn't in the Bible, it is not of God". But this is blatantly false and absurd. Such a view is typically supported by "don't add to God's Word." This is trying to justify a false belief by twisting Scripture. I have proved this with the use of church buildings and now NRoof's question has brought up some excellent point as well - if certain instruments and even certain kinds of music aren't in the Bible, then they must all not be of God and we should stop listening to music all together. Really, this kind of thinking could go on ad nauseam.
Not that I blame anyone in here for holding such views since they have been around for a long time and are held by the majority of Evangelicals. It seems to appeal to the "we-are-more-holy-because-we-only-believe-God's-Word" mentality. As I stated earlier, it is based on a very wrong understanding of Sola Scriptura.
No one is arguing against worship needing to be of the heart; that is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not playing instruments in worship contradicts the Bible, and clearly it does not. It would also be absurd to think that Jews, who have a long history of worshiping God through music, would suddenly quit at the coming of the Messiah, at a point in time when they should be the most joyous and celibratory.
Revelation 5:8-10, "8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, 10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
I find it very difficult, impossible actually, to believe that God would want, or allow, the Israelites to worship him with instruments in the OT and have angels worshiping with instruments in heaven, but then not want the NT Church or us to worship him when we have far more reason then the Israelites did and just as much as the angels.
O
Older & Senile?
Guest
Hi Folks,
May I offer this for consideration? Would anyone say that it is wrong not to use mechanical instruments of music in worship?
Just asking,
Older & Senile?
May I offer this for consideration? Would anyone say that it is wrong not to use mechanical instruments of music in worship?
Just asking,
Older & Senile?
S
Solo
Guest
Worshipping God must be done in the Spirit whether with music or without music, with instruments or without instruments, with hands in the air or with hands at your side. God looks at the heart, not at the physical. God knows your heart of worship before you sing a note.
O
Older & Senile?
Guest
No argument from me that God sees the heart.
John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." NKJV
What does the word truth here mean?
John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." NKJV
What does the word truth here mean?
Collier's insistance to make such a wide dichotomy between the OT and the NT and to regulate EVERYTHING including playing instruments to God as 'under the law of Moses', simply shows the absurdity that can come from taking the the 'New Covenant' philosphy to extremes.
God created music. God encouraged music in all forms (under appropriate circumstances. We have ample enough proof of God's followers worshipping their God (with his approval) with instruments.
Somehow, this all changed because we are New Covenant Christians??? We are not allowed to worship God with instruments because it is not specifically mentioned in the NT??
What foolish and illogical thinking. It just goes to show how far one can go when we try and separate the OT from the NT in ALL areas instead of in the important ones...
As much as I love the voice (I am a choral teacher) and the acappella medium in worship, I don't believe that worshipping God with instruments is disallowed or somehow anathema simply because we are New Covenant Christians
To take this stance to is to grossly misinterpret what it is to be a NC Christian.
God created music. God encouraged music in all forms (under appropriate circumstances. We have ample enough proof of God's followers worshipping their God (with his approval) with instruments.
Somehow, this all changed because we are New Covenant Christians??? We are not allowed to worship God with instruments because it is not specifically mentioned in the NT??
What foolish and illogical thinking. It just goes to show how far one can go when we try and separate the OT from the NT in ALL areas instead of in the important ones...
As much as I love the voice (I am a choral teacher) and the acappella medium in worship, I don't believe that worshipping God with instruments is disallowed or somehow anathema simply because we are New Covenant Christians
To take this stance to is to grossly misinterpret what it is to be a NC Christian.
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
Collier - I got my definition for the strong's concordance. I stand by it!
Also, collier, the bible doesn't say that one is to use one's voice (which is also an instrument) for singing so what say you to that?
Also King David sang prophetically about letting the daughter's of Zion sing with musical instruments.
Also, collier, the bible doesn't say that one is to use one's voice (which is also an instrument) for singing so what say you to that?
Also King David sang prophetically about letting the daughter's of Zion sing with musical instruments.
Vic C.
Member
Glad you brought it up. There's many new members here who may not have seen it. You know where I stand. I plea permissive Biblical silence on this one. I have a God-given talent to play guitar. I play by ear... self-taught. So I thought. :wink: I'd 'hate' to see that talent go to waste otherwise.
"Your talent is God's gift to you. What you do with talent can be your gift back to God."
(unknown)
O
Older & Senile?
Guest
John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." NKJV
What does the word truth here mean?
What does the word truth here mean?
S
Solo
Guest
Jesus is the Word, and he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Older & Senile? said:
Those that worship God have had their sins paid for by Jesus Christ, and his Spirit is living within each believer. Without this born of the Spirit experience, no one can worship God. In order for believers to worship God, they must do so in the Spirit and not the flesh.
Using the talents that God has given us to worship him such as singing hymns, psalms, songs; and playing instruments can be done in the Spirit or the flesh.
O
Older & Senile?
Guest
Solo, this was an excellent passage for this topic:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. NKJV
Note specificalyy that Jesus said that He was the way, the truth and the life. The way, His is the only way. There is no othe way to heaven but through Him. The truth, He is truth. Another related passage:
John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. NKJV
Again, the word truth, note that the refence here points to the word of God. His word. The verbally inspired word of God is truth. Now let's look again at John 4:
John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." NKJV
Truth here accompanies the word Spirit. They are two specific descriptions of how our worship must be. Both in spirit, that is from the heart, and also is truth. According to truth. According to the word, which is truth.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. NKJV
Notice in verse 17 that whatever we do in word or in deed is to be done in His name, or by His authority. His authority is given to us through His word. His truth.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. NKJV
Note specificalyy that Jesus said that He was the way, the truth and the life. The way, His is the only way. There is no othe way to heaven but through Him. The truth, He is truth. Another related passage:
John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. NKJV
Again, the word truth, note that the refence here points to the word of God. His word. The verbally inspired word of God is truth. Now let's look again at John 4:
John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." NKJV
Truth here accompanies the word Spirit. They are two specific descriptions of how our worship must be. Both in spirit, that is from the heart, and also is truth. According to truth. According to the word, which is truth.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. NKJV
Notice in verse 17 that whatever we do in word or in deed is to be done in His name, or by His authority. His authority is given to us through His word. His truth.
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
YOu do realise that the Word is Jesus? And the Word is life? Not talking about scripture here but the Word of God, which was there at the beginning which was God and which was with God. And the Word made flesh.
O
Older & Senile?
Guest
Yes. But note also John 17:17. There's more to it than just saying truth is Jesus. Scripture is truth according to this passage. Or do you disagree?
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
And word there...means scripture does it?
I will look at the concordance
I will look at the concordance
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
Jhn 17:17 Sanctify 37 them 846 through 1722 thy 4675 truth 225: thy 4674 word 3056 is 2076 truth 225.
3056 logos log'-os from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
So I looked up the meaning of 'thy' in that text so we know who's word....
4674 sos sos from 4771; thine:--thine (own), thy (friend).
Well that didn't help much *sigh*
Have to assume he was saying Jesus' word then. And since the scripture wasn't written back then then we could only assume he wasn't talking about scripture - rather Jesus' word being truth.
But then Jesus is the truth and he is the word. So it still stands that we are to worship in spirit and it JESUS. The Lord desires us to worship in Jesus who is the word and the truth...therefore, those outside of Jesus can't worship.
Interesting!
3056 logos log'-os from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
So I looked up the meaning of 'thy' in that text so we know who's word....
4674 sos sos from 4771; thine:--thine (own), thy (friend).
Well that didn't help much *sigh*
Have to assume he was saying Jesus' word then. And since the scripture wasn't written back then then we could only assume he wasn't talking about scripture - rather Jesus' word being truth.
But then Jesus is the truth and he is the word. So it still stands that we are to worship in spirit and it JESUS. The Lord desires us to worship in Jesus who is the word and the truth...therefore, those outside of Jesus can't worship.
Interesting!
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
OH OH OH and it co-incides with what Jesus said about no man cometh unto the father but through him...so it stands to reason that no man can worship God but through Christ as well.
Anyway...back to the point at hand...the bible says to sing psalms and psalms are put to music so it's safe to say that we can sing psalms with instruments. It must be made known that singing is not the only way to worship God. There is a scripture somewhere - can't remember where that says that one's service to the Lord is considered worship as well.
Nevetheless, if none of these things are done in JESUS (who is the truth) then it doesn't please God anyway
Anyway...back to the point at hand...the bible says to sing psalms and psalms are put to music so it's safe to say that we can sing psalms with instruments. It must be made known that singing is not the only way to worship God. There is a scripture somewhere - can't remember where that says that one's service to the Lord is considered worship as well.
Nevetheless, if none of these things are done in JESUS (who is the truth) then it doesn't please God anyway