Instrumental music

[stovebolts]

Merry, I've gotta say, you absolutly crack me up! :D (That's a good thing)

Here is a site that you might enjoy. Scroll down until you find the Greek NT. (The first is Latin)

perseus

Here is the entry for Logos from Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon
Logo's

 

[Collier]

I hate to start a thread and not be able to respond promptly but the weekends are family time and I hope everyone can respect that.Vic,I agree that your ability to play an instrument is God-given. I have never disputed that fact but what I want people to stop and think about is; is it acceptable in worship. Just because we have a talent does not make it acceptable in worship. I am sure we can think of thousands of God-given talents not suitable to use in worship.Merry, "Psallo" simply means to twitch. The context determines what is being twitched. The context of the passages I provided show that it is the heart that is to be twitched. God said in the heart; not on a harp! See, God was very specific how He wanted worship to be done to Him. If you insist on using musical instruments then everyone in the assemble MUST play an instrument because the command was given to all. You CANNOT be obedient to this command with out doing so. Also, pianos, organs, drums, etc. would be eliminated from being used because they are not twitched or twanged. These last two points are moot because we don't have God's approval for their use but I just wanted to point out that the majority of churches that use instruments still would not be following God's word.NRoof,I haven't forgot about you and I will answer your question in my next post in a little while.

 

[stovebolts]

Collier,
Excuse me if I'm wrong here, but it appears you are trying to say that God will not accept worship if musical instruments are present. Now, we both know that worship comes from the Heart, and there are lots of OT examples where God did not accept worship... and each and every time it comes down to ones heart. In one particular case, I believe that they had made worship such a ritual, that God rejected it entirely.

Before I proceed, let me tell you that I prefer worship without instrumentation and yes, I have seen some pretty wild entertainment under the guise of 'worship'... but that being said, I see no reason why worship cannot be held with instruments as long as those in attendance are worshipping, and not being entertained.

Now, it seems to me that we put more rules and regulations on what is not written than what is written in the Bible. In addition, we seem to like to create our own doctrine around these things that are not in the Bible under the guise of conservatism and we like to use fancy words such as authorized agents and the like. But I'd like to give you something to ponder... and that would be the parable of the talents.

Now tell me this my Brother in Christ, one faithful servant was given 5 talents, yet he gained an additional 5. What did he do to gain the additional 5? What was his reward?
Now, what about the one who buried his talent... The conservative who would err in conservatism... The one who would not think for himself and would have told the others around him to bury their's as well...
Or, will you simply state that this parable doesn't apply?

God has given us talents to use to His Glory. If somebody has the gift to bring others closer to Christ through musical instruments in the worship service, then how dare we try to bury the talents that the Lord has given them. The Lord wants our all during worship... He wants back what he has given to us... Not to do so, is a sin.

 

[Collier]

NRoof:Again, let me say that I appreciate your patience. In answer to your question, all I will say is that if something is offered as worship to God with instruments of music then it would be wrong simply because I cannot find any God given authority to do such.StoveBoltsWorship does come from the heart but that is not the only requirement set forth by our Lord in John 4:23-24. Truth is also a requirement and Jesus and His word is truth. So we must worship God in spirit and in truth or the way God has said.

Now, it seems to me that we put more rules and regulations on what is not written than what is written in the Bible

Actually God put the restrictions when He said not to add to or take away from His word. God said sing and make melody in our hearts. That is all He needed to say because that is the way He wants it. All I am wanting people to see is that God has prescribed pattern for worship to Him and no where in the N.T. has He set forth musical instruments as part of that pattern.

 

[stovebolts]

Worship does come from the heart but that is not the only requirement set forth by our Lord in John 4:23-24. Truth is also a requirement and Jesus and His word is truth. So we must worship God in spirit and in truth or the way God has said.

Collier,
I am in full agreement with your statment.
Jesus, Word, Truth... These are one in the same for Jesus is the Word and Jesus is the truth for outside of Christ, there simply is no other truth, no other word.

So it is that when we worship, we worship in Spirit... we are in union with our Lord. It is not "me" singing, it is Christ manifest through me that sings. it is more than my heart that God requires in worship, it is the very essence of my existance and that my friend, is Christ; for we find life through Christ and without Christ, there is no life.

Now, where we disagree, is how to use ones talents. BTW, What did the servant do to double his masters talent? One thing we can be sure of, it was pleasing to God.

 

[Collier]

Older&Senile?I am sorry that I have not addressed the questions you have posed. I know that you are new to this forum and first let me say that it is good to have you here.You asked if it would be wrong to worship without musical instruments. My answer to that question would be no, it is not wrong because God does not command us to use them. You also asked what is truth in John 4:24. I have dealt with this part before but when we worship in truth, then we worship according to God's word. We do what He wants and not what we like or think is appropiate.

 

[Older & Senile?]

Collier,

That's the point I was hoping to convey bt the question.

Another thought. We see where instruments were used in the Old Testament times. But then when the New Testament law is given, there is no mention of them being used in the worship of the early church. In fact it is almost 600 years later before they are first introduced into the worship.

No one can argue that they were used in the early church. They're not there. Period. So, the obvious question, Why not? Because they were not commanded. God wants us to worship Him according to His instructions. NOT what man thinks is better. Mechanical instruments of music in worship are not according to truth. They were added because man wants them. God never commanded that they be used in the early church.

 

[NRoof]

NRoof:In answer to your question, all I will say is that if something is offered as worship to God with instruments of music then it would be wrong simply because I cannot find any God given authority to do such.

I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

The problem I have with this is the selective nature of the statement. If you want to hold to this you have to be willing to apply it to all aspects and not just musical instruments.

On your line of thinking Collier, perhaps you should first consider whether or not large churches are mentioned in the Bible. Some would have you believe that since they are not mentioned in the Bible (only home churches), they are unbiblical.

As Free has pointed out you would have to apply this to a large church building as well. Again by the reasoning your using God does not say it is permissible so it must not be.

There is also nowhere I know of that specifically says all the letters and books written should be put together in the book we now call the Bible. By applying the same principle God would not approve of the Bible as we have it today.

These may seem extreme but I believe they get my point across. Take some time and apply this to as many things as you can and see if it holds up. Here is an interesting one to ponder over. Is it OK to use electricity during worship?

These may seem absurd but if you are going to apply a standard you must apply it to everything and not just 1 or 2 areas.

We have been given freedom and liberty through Christ. That freedom and liberty allows me to worship God in any way the Spirit leads me as long as it doesn't become a stumbling block to others.

 

[Collier]

NRoof:Yes, we disagree. Probably not the only thing either. The analogy of the large church building is not the same. Again, it is comparing apples and oranges. God commands us to assemble. He does not say where. It could be in a tent, a house, or a building. However, when it comes to music in worship God said sing and make melody in your heart. He was specific how He wanted it.Maybe it would be helpful to do a study of generic commands vs. specific commands?

 

[Vic C.]

The problem I have with this is the selective nature of the statement. If you want to hold to this you have to be willing to apply it to all aspects and not just musical instruments.

Exactly. I cringe at the extremes this can be taken. These verses showing where there was singing don't really tell us much. They only appear to be examples, not commands. Because they don't mention the presence of instruments do we automatically assume they are not allowed? Or not present?

I don't see where it is stated whether this was during corporate or private worship. Maybe the first century worshippers couldn't afford any instruments. There are a lot of variables but the one I don't see is where God specifically prohibits it. He's good at telling us what to and not to do and worship IS important to Him, no? If He requires no instruments, I believe He would make that clear, not obscure it behind silent passages. It is not as specific as it appears to some.

 

[guibox]

The fact that God went into detail not about the use of instruments, but about WHICH KINDS of instruments were appropriate for worship (i.e., drums and percussion were limited to secular use and not appropriate for temple services, where as the brass and stringed instruments were) tells you that there isn't an issue as far as instruments in general worship use according to God.

Collier's thinking is merely a gross extension to the far left of the absurdities of where you could take 'New Covenant' theology. And as Vic has pointed out, an absence of it doesn't mean a prohibition of it, especially when it:

1) Is not given a specific command not to do so
2) Has been allowed and condoned by God throughout the OT

Collier, your thinking and interpretation is not only bordering on irrational but fanatical.

If you want to make a case for 'no drums in the church', you'd have a much better chance at it from a scriptural perspective then 'no instruments'

 

[Merry Menagerie]

God wants us to worship Him according to His instructions. NOT what man thinks is better. Mechanical instruments of music in worship are not according to truth. They were added because man wants them. God never commanded that they be used in the early church.

God didn't command for us to sing using our voices either - so we're all agonna!!!

 

[Solo]

I still do not see in the Old Testament or the New Testament where God tells us not to use instruments when we worship him.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

"Psallo" simply means to twitch. The context determines what is being twitched. The context of the passages I provided show that it is the heart that is to be twitched. God said in the heart; not on a harp! See, God was very specific how He wanted worship to be done to Him. If you insist on using musical instruments then everyone in the assemble MUST play an instrument because the command was given to all. You CANNOT be obedient to this command with out doing so. Also, pianos, organs, drums, etc. would be eliminated from being used because they are not twitched or twanged. These last two points are moot because we don't have God's approval for their use but I just wanted to point out that the majority of churches that use instruments still would not be following God's word.

I'm sorry but you're wrong...according to strong's concordance "Psalms" means...

Eph 5:19 Speaking 2980 to yourselves 1438 in psalms 5568 and 2532 hymns 5215 and 2532 spiritual 4152 songs 5603, singing 103 and 2532 making melody 5567 in 1722 your 5216 heart 2588 to the Lord 2962;


5568 psalmos psal-mos' from 5567;

a set piece of music,

i.e. a sacred ode

(accompanied with the voice, harp or other instrument; a "psalm");

collectively, the book of the Psalms:--psalm. Compare 5603.

I also looked up MAKING MELODY...and here's what I got...

1) to pluck off, pull out

2) to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang

a) to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical instrument so that they gently vibrate

b) to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc.

c) to sing to the music of the harp

d) in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song


Also...the voice is an instrument as well. King David spoke prophetically about the children of zion, Israel and saints singing and dancing with instruments - we are the children of zion, saints and spiritual israel are we not? He then went onto say that God delights in it....

Psalms 149 v 1

Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song and his praise in the congregation of saints. 2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of zion be joyful in their King. 3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. 4 FOR THE LORD TAKETH PLEASURE IN HIS PEOPLE: HE WILL BEAUTIFY THE MEEK WITH SALVATION.



So we have God giving us instructions to play instruments such as - stringed instruments, voice and OTHER INSTRUMENTS. Also David singing about us, the children of zion singing, and playing instruments and the Lord delighting in it.

Your arguement has so many holes in it it's see-through!

 

[Solo]

God has not changed, and continues to be worshipped in Spirit and Truth. King David sang, danced, and played an instrument to worship God and instructed the same in the Psalms.

At what point did God determine that instruments should not be used, and where did he command it so.


6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Malachi 3:6

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. 2 Samuel 6:14


Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Psalm 33:2

Then will I go unto the altar of God, unto God my exceeding joy: yea, upon the harp will I praise thee, O God my God. Psalm 43:4

Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:3

 

[Free]

Collier,

You still owe me a response from the 2nd page.

 

[Solo]

Collier,

You still owe me a response from the 2nd page.

I believe that the harps mentioned in Revelation might have caused some further reflection.

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 5:8

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: Revelation 14:2

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. Revelation 15:2

 

[Orthodox Christian]

^^^By that same logic, it seems that incense would continue to be used in worship. :D

 

[guibox]

[quote="Solo]I believe that the harps mentioned in Revelation might have caused some further reflection.

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 5:8

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: Revelation 14:2

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. Revelation 15:2[/quote]

Ah, my dear Solo...That would only mean that we can ONLY play harps and no other instrument! ;-) Don't you just love legalism?

 

[Solo]

[quote="Solo]I believe that the harps mentioned in Revelation might have caused some further reflection.

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 5:8

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: Revelation 14:2

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. Revelation 15:2

Ah, my dear Solo...That would only mean that we can ONLY play harps and no other instrument! ;-) Don't you just love legalism?[/quote]
Legalism was a trap that I fell into after being born of the Spirit. God has cleaned me up quite a bit since then, and is continuing to santify me since the period of justification. I can not wait until glorification. Amen.