Irrefutable proof in the existance of God

[Khristeeanos]

I am here. :wink:

But seriously, Romans 1 says:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

And don't forget my favorite Bible verse!

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


If someone says they don't believe in God, they really mean they have allowed someone to convince them intellecutally that something can come from nothing. This goes against their conscience (which means "with knowledge").

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I am here. :wink:

But seriously, Romans 1 says:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

And don't forget my favorite Bible verse!

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Quoting bible verses is "irrefutable proof of the existence of God"?

:roll:

If someone says they don't believe in God, they really mean they have allowed someone to convince them intellecutally that something can come from nothing. This goes against their conscience (which means "with knowledge").

Who convinced you intellectually that God came from nothing?

 

[Solo]

Who convinced you intellectually that God came from nothing?

God has always been! Who convinced you intellectually that he hasn't always been? And don't tell me that the devil made you do it!! :D

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Who convinced you intellectually that God came from nothing?

God has always been! Who convinced you intellectually that he hasn't always been? And don't tell me that the devil made you do it!! :D

No one's convinced me of anything yet - either way. I'm just a bit let down by the content of what promised to be "irrefutable proof" of something. My point in response to the supposition that those who don't believe in God must have been convinced (intellectually) that "something can come from nothing" is that the believer in God then must have been intellectually convinced that God came from nothing. That he is thought to have always existed equates to the same thing. He's just there with no causation - just like the atheist believes the universe (in one form or another) has always been there. If the atheist has been intellectually convinced, so has the deist, by your own reasoning - if you will follow that reasoning through.

 

[Solo]

Who convinced you intellectually that God came from nothing?

God has always been! Who convinced you intellectually that he hasn't always been? And don't tell me that the devil made you do it!! :D

No one's convinced me of anything yet - either way. I'm just a bit let down by the content of what promised to be "irrefutable proof" of something. My point in response to the supposition that those who don't believe in God must have been convinced (intellectually) that "something can come from nothing" is that the believer in God then must have been intellectually convinced that God came from nothing. That he is thought to have always existed equates to the same thing. He's just there with no causation - just like the atheist believes the universe (in one form or another) has always been there. If the atheist has been intellectually convinced, so has the deist, by your own reasoning - if you will follow that reasoning through.

Faith in a omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator; or faith in an inanimate, unscripted, undesigned, ever-existant physical realm are our choices. The physical evidence is creation. Choose to have faith in whichever one blows your dress up.

 

[Khristeeanos]

I'm just a bit let down by the content of what promised to be "irrefutable proof" of something.

What does the text say?

It says that God has clearly made Himself known to all people through two ways:


1. The creation
2. Conscience


How much more clear can it be?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Faith in a omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator; or faith in an inanimate, unscripted, undesigned, ever-existant physical realm are our choices. The physical evidence is creation. Choose to have faith in whichever one blows your dress up.

Exactly - choose to have faith in one or the other (or none at all I may add)

How does that support Bonzai's claim that he has "irrefutable proof" that your faith choice is the correct one? You can argue for one or the other, but can you claim "irrefutable proof" for either argument? (If so you wouldn't need faith) Let's stick to the original point before enlarging the scope of the discussion. Was Bonzai's claim legitimate? If not, why are you opposing my pointing that out?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I'm just a bit let down by the content of what promised to be "irrefutable proof" of something.

What does the text say?

It says that God has clearly made Himself known to all people through two ways:


1. The creation
2. Conscience


How much more clear can it be?

I'm not arguing with your interpretation of the text. I agree that is what the bible teaches, I just don't share your premise that the bible is always true. I need that "irrefutable proof" you mentioned :wink:

 

[cubedbee]

I'm just a bit let down by the content of what promised to be "irrefutable proof" of something.

What does the text say?

It says that God has clearly made Himself known to all people through two ways:


1. The creation
2. Conscience


How much more clear can it be?

It also makes it clear that men refuted (denied the accuracy or truth) of God's existence and instead worshipped false God's. Hence, while God's existence is made clear by the Creation, it is not made irrefutably clear. This is a matter of definition--irrefutable means not able to be denied and men clearly can and do deny God, as both our life experience and this very passage testify.

 

[Solo]

Faith in a omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator; or faith in an inanimate, unscripted, undesigned, ever-existant physical realm are our choices. The physical evidence is creation. Choose to have faith in whichever one blows your dress up.

Exactly - choose to have faith in one or the other (or none at all I may add)

How does that support Bonzai's claim that he has "irrefutable proof" that your faith choice is the correct one? You can argue for one or the other, but can you claim "irrefutable proof" for either argument? (If so you wouldn't need faith) Let's stick to the original point before enlarging the scope of the discussion. Was Bonzai's claim legitimate? If not, why are you opposing my pointing that out?

God's creation and the Holy Spirit's direction is the evidence. Individuals reject the creation and the Holy Spirit's direction because they do not want to change their lifestyle from darkness to light.

 

[gingercat]

Brad, Are you saying that you are not a Christian?

 

[Heidi]

I'm just a bit let down by the content of what promised to be "irrefutable proof" of something.

What does the text say?

It says that God has clearly made Himself known to all people through two ways:


1. The creation
2. Conscience


How much more clear can it be?

I'm not arguing with your interpretation of the text. I agree that is what the bible teaches, I just don't share your premise that the bible is always true. I need that "irrefutable proof" you mentioned :wink:

The irrefutable proof is that no one can yet explain how the first cell came into being, the infinity of the universe, how all the molecules, atoms, quarks, cells, neurons were arranged to create animals, humans, plnts, etc. Our creation is nothing short of miraculous which is obvious to everyone except those who want to deny it. And by the way, the bible is the Word of God and until you can prove that you know better what happened in biblical times than the authors of the bible, then your declaration that it isn't true is meaningless. Sorry.

 

[Khristeeanos]

I'm not arguing with your interpretation of the text. I agree that is what the bible teaches, I just don't share your premise that the bible is always true. I need that "irrefutable proof" you mentioned :wink:

When someone looks within themselves, they find there is a God-shaped hole that only the Living God can fill.

Perhaps you would care to visit the General Forum and read my testimony.

 

[GundamZero]

I'm sorry, but I think this topic got off on the wrong foot.

You see, even though creation leaves an irrefutable proof that something bigger is out there, God didn't want that to force us into faith in him. C.S. Lewis wrote that tthere are two devices that God will not use by the very nature of his goal--gaining the faith and love of all men in order to usher them back into the glory he intended for them. These two weapons are the irresistable and the undistputable. Though the aspects of creation clearly point to God, as Romans said, you can't mistake that for faith in God. God won't reveal himself to anyone who isn't looking for him, because that would be forcing himself on us, and true love doesn't do that.

Even demons know that there is God. All man knows, deep down that there is something other then them. Sin deceives us into thing the purpose is in the creation. For instance we see bad things happen to good people and vice versa. Ergo, we say that there must not be a God who is good, because a good God would never do that to anyone.

Now, some less mature Christians will counter that with, "Sure, a good God is trying to teach you, so he does bad things to you." That is wrong, God does no bad thing. James tells us that He doesn't even tempt us. Any thing bad that happens to us is a disect result of sin. Saying that creation proves God is true and false at the same time, because in the end it is faith in what we don't see that reveals God to us. C.s. Lewis also wrote that you ought not believe in anything for any other reason than the fact that it's true. It means you shouldn't believe in God because of the Creation, you need to know in your heart that it's true, that's what salvation comes from.

So faith is not really believing in what we don't see, on the basis of what we see, but rather, knowing what we don't see, regardless of what we see.

 

[Heidi]

You're absolutely right. God's divine nature is clearly revealed to us by what has been made. Romans 1:18-31 describes those who exchange the truth of His miraculous creation for the fallible theories of men perfectly. They like to think of themselves as infallible instead of God alone. ;-)

 

[BradtheImpaler]

God's creation and the Holy Spirit's direction is the evidence

Evidence or irrefutable proof? Please clarify.

Individuals reject the creation and the Holy Spirit's direction because they do not want to change their lifestyle from darkness to light

Or, maybe they just don't see as much evidence there as you do and the thought of having to change their lifestyle for something that has to be believed by faith in the first place seems a bit preposterous to them?

 

[Solo]

God's creation and the Holy Spirit's direction is the evidence

Evidence or irrefutable proof? Please clarify.

Both

Individuals reject the creation and the Holy Spirit's direction because they do not want to change their lifestyle from darkness to light

Or, maybe they just don't see as much evidence there as you do and the thought of having to change their lifestyle for something that has to be believed by faith in the first place seems a bit preposterous to them?

Jesus said, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:18-21

 

[DivineNames]

The irrefutable proof is that no one can yet explain how the first cell came into being, the infinity of the universe, how all the molecules, atoms, quarks, cells, neurons were arranged to create animals, humans, plnts, etc.

I'm not sure that is "irrefutable proof", it actually looks like the logical fallacy of argument from ignorance.

 

[Heidi]

The irrefutable proof is that no one can yet explain how the first cell came into being, the infinity of the universe, how all the molecules, atoms, quarks, cells, neurons were arranged to create animals, humans, plnts, etc.

I'm not sure that is "irrefutable proof", it actually looks like the logical fallacy of argument from ignorance.

So then how was the first cell designed? How were all the cells arranged to form animals, plants, and humans? If you aren't claiming ignorance, but instead, ominiscience, then please tell the world how they were created. "He who exalts himself will be humbled." Admitting one's ignorance is the first step toward truth. Claiming omiscience is called, "delusions of grandeur", my friend. You may fool others who also claim omniscience, but you don't fool true Christians and you certainly don't fool God. :wink:

 

[DivineNames]

The irrefutable proof is that no one can yet explain how the first cell came into being, the infinity of the universe, how all the molecules, atoms, quarks, cells, neurons were arranged to create animals, humans, plnts, etc.

Heidi, your argument seems to be that, "we don't understand how it could be", so it must have been done by God. I assure you that this is fallacious reasoning.

If you want to talk about "theistic proofs", I recommend that you try and learn a little about basic logic.