Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[D-D-W]

Luke 23:43​

New International Version​

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”​

its not likely that the man Jesus was speaking to was baptised​

True, but since our Lord had not yet died or resurrected, his salvation would have been under the Mosaic covenant, not the New Covenant. There is no requirement for baptism in the Mosaic.

 

[D-D-W]

technically when a man dies he pays for his sin. if he were then resurrected he would have no sin. it would be what that one did after the resurrection is what would bring judgment

That would be the 2nd death, after the final judgement.
If what you say is true, then the resurrected unsaved dead at the end of the age would all go to heaven. (Rev 20. 15, Dan 12.2) Not so.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Jesus does not proclaim that :
The beginning process of salvation has taken place, ad-hoc rituals to be observed yet to be completed
The first stage of salvation has taken place, ad -hoc requirements yet to be verified and administered by sinful men yet to met.
, etc,etc,etc,etc, etc, & etc....

Jesus proclaimed that He does not view the evidence of the wonderous transforming truth of His Divine redeeming Grace in the outward ritual of sinful men.
It is His Witness of the work of the Spirit not cleaning with water on skin , but expelling & purifying from within , where no human eye can witness, the once carnal defiled heart all the former lusts of the world.
This is Salvation attained and firmly rooted, seen by God and God alone, ever molding in things Divine the heart of the child of God.


Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house

 

[donadams]

Physical water does not wash away sins.

You are reading the scripture with a denominational mindset (stronghold) and thus projecting into the passage a preconceived idea.

Only the blood of Jesus can do that.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we repent and therefore how we obey the Gospel and are therefore saved.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Where is baptism mentioned in this passage about being saved?

Answer: No where.

Should a born again Christian be baptized in water?

Answer: Yes because it’s a public confession of faith for those who already believe and are saved.


Should a born again Christian be baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Answer: Yes because it is God power for the Christian to live the Christian life and therefore be a witness.



JLB

Where does scripture say baptism is a public confession

The grace of justification is baptism
The merits of the blood of Christ applied to our souls in baptism the outward sign of God’s grace
God connects the sign with grace
Washing of the body in pure water (heb 10:22) signifies the washing of the soul from sin by grace and they cannot be separated

Faith alone make Christ a doctrine alone!

Washing
Mk 16:16
Jn 3:5
Jn 3:22
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16
1 cor 12:13
Gal 3:27
1 pet 3:20-21

Thks

 

[D-D-W]

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house

Interesting. We lose this in english translation, but the Hebrew word for "Salvation" is Yeshua, (found hundreds of times in the OT) which is the same as His name in Aramaic, His native language.

So you could translate that as "This day Jesus is come to this house."

 

[Consecrated Life]

Interesting. We lose this in english translation, but the Hebrew word for "Salvation" is Yeshua, (found hundreds of times in the OT) which is the same as His name in Aramaic, His native language.

So you could translate that as "This day Jesus is come to this house."

Jesus's proclamation in this verse was directly responding to what He saw, the fully repentant heart of a sinner.
Just as Jesus first saw into the heart of Zachaeus, his desire for the possibility of the living Spirit of God for himself in sonship with the Almighty as he gazed down on Jesus from his perch in the tree.
How a Christian cannot not only not spiritually perceive & be amazed at the marvelous Spiritual wonder of the Savior's manifest Love for Zachaeus's desire and subsequent transformation in this passage, but then tap the brakes on what is being detailed here by God for our own edification I cannot understand ?

Luk 19:5-6
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house

 

[JLB]

Yes, but for those who are justified, who are saved prior to death or the return of Christ, this just determines the level of reward, not whether they will be saved. Good works are the evidence of one having been justified already, just as bad works are the evidence that one isn't saved.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (ESV)

I agree with most of what you say here.


However, the one point I was making is that when we stand before Him on that Day, salvation or not is a very real issue.

Look at the language of the following passages:


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:34-36

Key Verse:

• Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Blessed = Inherit the kingdom = Salvation, eternal life


Key Verse:

• “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Cursed = not inherit the kingdom = cast into the everlasting fire







JLB

 

[JLB]

Where does scripture say baptism is a public confession

The grace of justification is baptism
The merits of the blood of Christ applied to our souls in baptism the outward sign of God’s grace
God connects the sign with grace
Washing of the body in pure water (heb 10:22) signifies the washing of the soul from sin by grace and they cannot be separated

Faith alone make Christ a doctrine alone!

Washing
Mk 16:16
Jn 3:5
Jn 3:22
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16
1 cor 12:13
Gal 3:27
1 pet 3:20-21

Thks

I don’t believe in “faith alone”.

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:5-6

 

[Free]

I agree with most of what you say here.


However, the one point I was making is that when we stand before Him on that Day, salvation or not is a very real issue.

Look at the language of the following passages:


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:34-36

Key Verse:

• Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Blessed = Inherit the kingdom = Salvation, eternal life


Key Verse:

• “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Cursed = not inherit the kingdom = cast into the everlasting fire

It is an issue, for those who aren't already saved. Look at what Jesus said earlier:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)

This shows that even if a person does many righteous works, it doesn't mean there is a relationship with Christ. The relationship comes first--justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone--and the good works are then evidence of a saving faith. Believers stand before the judgement seat of Christ to determine the level of reward, not to determine their final destination.

Works don't save anyone; faith in Christ does.

 

[Free]

I don’t believe in “faith alone”.

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:5-6

What do those verses have to do with faith alone? That justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is at the heart of the gospel. It's what followers of Christ believe.

 

[JLB]

It is an issue, for those who aren't already saved. Look at what Jesus said earlier:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)

The text I gave is from Matthew 25 where Jesus is speaking privately to His disciples.

Contextually Matthew 25:31-46 is to be understood as the interpretation to the previous parable where He refers to His servants that were given “talents” which are “investments” made by Him.

Notice what He says…

For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:29-30

• And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[JLB]

That justification is by grace alone, through faith alone

How can it be grace alone if it also requires faith?

How can it be by faith alone if it also requires grace?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8

 

[Hopeful 2]

More so than yours.

LOL

No one continued on "without more sins" until they accepted Christ who died for their sins.

The dictionary's definition of "repent" is "turn from", or, "change".
As men were being told to turn from sin, the repentance was from sin.
If they did not turn from sin, what did they turn from ?
It is written..."For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Cor 7:10)
Looks like repentance, from sin, is necessary for salvation.

In neither is found the false doctrine of "Baptismal Regeration" in the OP based on a misintetreptation of Jn. 3:5, which is what the OP is really addressing.

In neither is found the doctrine of baptismal regeneration spelled out like it is in Roans 6:4.
John 3:5 is not on the table.

Obedience out of fear and consequences is one thing, obedienece out of love and trust is another.

Both are obedience.
It is written..."By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil." (Pro 16:6)

Again, work based religion. Saved sinners run the race, not sinners run the race to be saved.

Not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
As salvation won't be determined until the last day, your point is moot.

What was your point by arguing the uses of different words, when both were associated with cleansing of a leper?

Leprosy was not cleansed by bathing.
Sins ARE cleansed by baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

Nonetheless, trinitarians have been using 1 Jn. 5:7-8 to justify trinity doctrine all the time.

Who cares about that side-track ?

And I have just pointed out that those three are not interchangeable, and 1 John 5:8 may be inauthentic.

And I have just pointed out that they agree in one !

Go read the great commission in Matt. 28.

Thanks for pointing out another command from Jesus to baptize, this time, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...which is Jesus !
Why is it that baptism is not necessary for salvation ?

It was mere symbolism for the Samaritans and the Ephesians.

You are injecting your feelings onto others.

It was mere symbolism for the Samaritans and the Ephesians.

As rebirth wasn't a topic of Paul's interactions with the 12 at Ephesus, or of Peter's interactions at Samaria, any judgements we may have are only conjecture.
Paul describes rebirth clearly, in Rom 6:4..."Raised with Christ to walk in newness of life"

Laying of hand is required for the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

It was in some cases.

Therefore, baptism only symbolizes repentance. True repentance that bears fruit is necessary, water baptism is not.

Baptism for the remission of past sins is an entirely different topic than repentance from sin.
Baptism washes away sins.
It only works if the one being baptized has already turned from sin.

We're not subject to John the baptist's ministry.

Agreed.
Jesus' ministry has superceded John's.

"Turned from sin" or not, unprofitable servants are treated the same as the unbelievers, and punished more severely than the unbelievers, says not I, but the Lord.

That made no sense.
If they have turned from sin how can they be likened to those who have not turned form sin ?

Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Lk. 12:44-48)

That is a good OT teaching, and meant for OT people.

Rom. 5:12, Ps. 51:5.

What sins do babies have ?

You don't know that. Could be much sooner than you thought.

I do know that, as the following verse paints the picture..." Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matt 3:12)

Now you're contradicting yourself. Ananias described it.

So print the description you refer to.

If he was born again, he had received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I agree, as the Spirit of God will not dwell in a polluted temple.

In that case, once again, Holy Spirit is received BEFORE any water baptism,

Agreed, and that was only to show the Jews that God had also accepted Gentile believers.

therefore water baptism only symbolizes salvific status.

Water baptism "shows" nothing.
Baptism using water, in the name of Jesus Christ, remits past sin. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

Cornelius and Paul received the Holy Spirit before baptism.

Yep, and within moments Peter was baptizing them.

These Pharisees and Sedducees were not baptized for the remission of sins.

From what is written, I have to agree with you.

Even if John had baptized them, their sins were not remitted.

Had they actually repented of sin, John's baptism would have remitted their past sins.
It is written...

1. Mark 1:4
   John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
2. Luke 3:3
   And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

 

[D-D-W]

Jesus's proclamation in this verse was directly responding to what He saw, the fully repentant heart of a sinner.
Just as Jesus first saw into the heart of Zachaeus, his desire for the possibility of the living Spirit of God for himself in sonship with the Almighty as he gazed down on Jesus from his perch in the tree.
How a Christian cannot not only not spiritually perceive & be amazed at the marvelous Spiritual wonder of the Savior's manifest Love for Zachaeus's desire and subsequent transformation in this passage, but then tap the brakes on what is being detailed here by God for our own edification I cannot understand ?

Luk 19:5-6
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house

You missed the point.

 

[Dave...]

Because they can:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

The Bible speaks of salvation as a past event (justification and sanctification), and ongoing process (sanctification), and a future fulfillment (glorification). If a person is justified, they are saved.

I just wanted to clarify.... This is the right to become children of God, but being born of God is still a future promise.

John 14: 16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

John 3:5, Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

All the water baptized OT saints, not yet justified.

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Then is infant baptism a valid biblical practice? Yes or no?

It is an invalid practice.

When or where did the Holy Spirit fall on any baby upon baptism - which was actually sprinkling of water, lest immersion endangers the baby's life?

Nobody in the NT baptized a baby for the remission of sins they didn't commit.

By belief in the gospel and repentance of sins.

Verses, please.
I already supplied Rom 6:3 to show that one is baptized into Christ.

That life starts with the receiving of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

The gift of the holy Ghost is given IF a man turns from sin and is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

You are, not I, as long as you cling to the false doctrine of "baptismal salvation".

For your sake, I will print it again... Acts 2:38 is...."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Steps 1, 2, and 3.

How do you know whether a sinner has truly turned from sin? What are the fruits of true repentance?

The gift of tongues is one indictor.
A life without sin is the other,

No, applied at one's acceptance of him as their personal Lord and Savior by receiving the gospel.

Scripture, please.

Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. (Acts 2:41)

You did notice that they had been baptized... right ?

You don't know that. All speculation.

The Holy Spirit will not dwell in a polluted temple.
If the eunuch's repentance from sin was real, he would have received the gift o the Holy Ghost...seeing as his "temple" had been washed clean at his baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of past sins.

Faith/belief alone in WHAT? This further shows You don't know the difference.

Belief that Jesus is the Son of God.
Belief in that, won't save a man or a devil.
The actions of the man, after believing that, is what will save him.

You're the one who's been defending and propagating the false doctrine of baptismal salvation, not I.

It is not a false doctrine, and still, it is only a portion of the events a new convert will experience on the way to his eventual salvation.

That order has been proven not to be a one size fits all formula, as with the exceptions where the Holy Spirit was received BEFORE baptism.

The only time that occurred was at the home of Cornelius.
The Jews had to be really stunned in order to manifest that God had accepted the Gentiles too.
So God gave them the gift of tongues to show they had been given the Holy Ghost,
Thanks be to God !

No, only the blood is mentioned. You're adding other things into it.

I have faith in the Lord's ways.
You are welcome to have the same faith, or you can keep arguing against the ways of the Lord.

I side with credible theologians, historians and scholars who have studied the bible rather than worshiping it and using it against others.

Do your 'credible' theologians still commit sin ?

It is debatable whether the gift of tongues is still being regularly granted today.

Everything is debatable.

Lol, you sure? Ever read Is. 5:20?

Yes I have: thanks for asking.

Yeah, just like "baptized in John's name" and "into John's Baptism".

In neither of those is anyone baptized into John.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You missed the point.

The point of the thread is what is required for salvation.
So do you, or do you not believe that Zacheus was saved when Jesus responded immediately to his testimony by proclaiming:

And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house ?

 

[Free]

I just wanted to clarify.... This is the right to become children of God, but being born of God is still a future promise.

"Right" is not referring to some future promise, as though it is reserving the right to become the children of God at a later date. It is the Greek word exousian, which means "right," "privilege," or "authority", and carries with it the notion of "power." That is, God gives those who believe in Jesus the power and authority--the right--to become children of God. We should also note that that it is a present promise--John 1:13 uses the present tense:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

So, the "right to become children of God" is something that is completed now. This agrees with Paul:

Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. (ESV)

Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (ESV)

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. (ESV)

Php 2:14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing,
Php 2:15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, (ESV)

John also writes further about it:

1Jn 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
...
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. (ESV)

John 14: 16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Dave

I don't understand what this has to do with anything. This was fulfilled at Pentecost.

 

[Free]

The text I gave is from Matthew 25 where Jesus is speaking privately to His disciples.

Contextually Matthew 25:31-46 is to be understood as the interpretation to the previous parable where He refers to His servants that were given “talents” which are “investments” made by Him.

Notice what He says…

For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:29-30

• And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Okay, but what does that have to do with anything? How does that address what Jesus already stated in Matthew 7? I'm not sure what your point is.

How can it be grace alone if it also requires faith?

How can it be by faith alone if it also requires grace?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8

What else can it be, if not by grace alone through faith alone? Only works, but that would be to teach another gospel.