not likely . people were dying long before Jesus came along
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?
- Thread starter electedbyHim
- Start date
Heb 9:16-17
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Hope this helps
Physical water does not wash away sins.
You are reading the scripture with a denominational mindset (stronghold) and thus projecting into the passage a preconceived idea.
Only the blood of Jesus can do that.
Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we repent and therefore how we obey the Gospel and are therefore saved.
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
Where is baptism mentioned in this passage about being saved?
Answer: No where.
Should a born again Christian be baptized in water?
Answer: Yes because it’s a public confession of faith for those who already believe and are saved.
Should a born again Christian be baptized with the Holy Spirit?
Answer: Yes because it is God power for the Christian to live the Christian life and therefore be a witness.
JLB
Because they can:
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. (ESV)
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (ESV)
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)
Etc.
The Bible speaks of salvation as a past event (justification and sanctification), and ongoing process (sanctification), and a future fulfillment (glorification). If a person is justified, they are saved.
Matthew 24:13
"But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. " that would be future
Good scriptures.
You make some good points also.
However, we must all stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ for Him to determine.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10
- that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Jesus says it this way -
- All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46
Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
- for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
- I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
- I was a stranger and you took Me in;
- I was naked and you clothed Me;
- I was sick and you visited Me;
- I was in prison and you came to Me.’
JLB
Yes, that would be, but we cannot take that one verse and make it contradict the rest. That verse is either speaking of glorification, an assurance of the completion of one's salvation, or it refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Either way, it doesn't nullify those verses that speak of justification. Paul clearly says that we "are saved" and are "children of God" right now, which is what John also states. Those are both present tense.
We could also look at what Peter said on Pentecost:
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
Act 2:40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
Act 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
...
Act 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts,
Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. (ESV)
Again, they "were being saved." Such language is used throughout the NT.
Yes, but for those who are justified, who are saved prior to death or the return of Christ, this just determines the level of reward, not whether they will be saved. Good works are the evidence of one having been justified already, just as bad works are the evidence that one isn't saved.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (ESV)
does not contradict ,it explains
Please, explain exactly what and how it explains.
If salvation is only future tense, even for us, according to Matt 24, then it absolutely contradicts those statements I have given which unequivocally say it is present tense, that we are saved right now. We have to make sense of both and not choose one to override the other.
you say you are saved matthew 24:5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
yes many different ones admit there was a man named jesus yet they will prove to be false christian .Jesus said And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
you could be telling yourself you are saved but be so wrong
yes many different ones admit there was a man named jesus yet they will prove to be false christian .Jesus said And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
you could be telling yourself you are saved but be so wrong
What is not likely ?
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Not so intersting who attend a church run by Nicolaitans.
Then why are you still assuming that you can be baptized into repentance?
And where in the bible says baptism can cleanse it?
God is not pleased with those who have no relationship with him, whether they think they are obedient to God or not.
No surprise there, you can't even agree on Paul's salvation status.
Nonetheless, cleansing was instituted for lepers, and Naaman was a leper.
No they're not, as much as the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are not interchangeable.
You're simply ignoring Scriptural evidence that water and blood are NOT interchangeable.
Jesus commanded baptism of the Holy Spirit in the name of the holy trinity, not repeating what John the Baptist had already been doing.
Rom 6 is talking about the symbolism of baptism, it's a figure of speech. Whatever you believe that baptism accomplishes didn't happen to the Samaritans in Acts 8, especially not Simon the sorcerer.
Again, not happening in the cases of Samaritans in Acts 8 and the Ephesians in 19. Not until an apostle laid hands on them.
Repentance leads to baptism, not the other way around, that's why it's called baptism "of repentance", it's for the repentant sinners. If you can have all your sins remitted by getting baptized and nothing else, then infant baptism would've worked.
So? Fire is not of the "spirit, water and blood" triad, is it. Yet John's word is clear, Jesus is to baptize with fire.
Yes, everythere there - Paul was to be filled with the Holy Spirit. You're essentially accusing Ananias of being a liar.
Don't quote anything from Paul's letters if you don't believe that he was born again in spirit.
Yes, baptism requries repentance beforehand, you can't achieve either repentance or remission of sins by having such a "bath".
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. (Matt. 3:7-9)
You're the one defending and propagating the false doctrine that "baptism is necessary for salvation," which inadvertantly yet inevitably espouses infant baptism.
If they were saved - which is clearly written, they had received the Holy Spirit.
Our rebirth is in Christ, water baptism is a ritual to signify it.
For the repentant, the beginning of another life is the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
But according to your misinterpretation and distortion of God's words, a true, permanent, repentance from sin hinges on "one's baptism".
Baptism is a public declaration of repentance, this ritual itself doesn't achieve repentance. Did you really miss the part of THIS scripture declaring what the blood of Christ did?
Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:27-28)
But it's written in your own words, "Spiritual birth happens at baptism." Since that eunuch was baptized, he surely was reborn in spirit, according to you, right?
Devils believe in the existence of God, not the authority; they don't trust God with their obedience. You don't know the difference.
Then what's the beef between us?
Really? Then why did Jesus declare the wine as his blood, shed for the REMISSION OF SINS at the last supper in Matt. 26:27-28? Where's the water in there?
You're defending the position that "water baptism is necessary for salvation" by conflating blood with water. BTW, 1 Jn. 5:7-8 is controversial, believed to be inauthentic, added at a later date.
Do you know whether a sinner is truly repentant? Through the lens of any Scripture? If not, then it's between the sinner and God.
No, we can forgive offenses, only God can forgive sin.
It does when it is the blood of Christ.
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8)
And you're not ?
How can the blood of Christ read something into scripture ?
Scripture, please.
If one keeps on murdering or stealing, their confession is worthless.
It is a tacit understanding.
It is written..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)
That is an outright declaration of the connection between calling on the name of the Lord and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
I just supplied the verse, so you will have to rethink your POV.
All repentant people should be baptized using water in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their past sins so they can be reborn.
Salvation is not assured until the day of judgement.
The race remains to be run.
He will be, if his repentance from sin was true.
Peter said men would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, if they repented and got baptized, in Acts 2:38.
Isn't it safe to say then, that those not exhibiting the Christian life have not received the gift of the Holy Ghost ?
Good person-good fruit, bad person-bad fruit ?
Is that a complete sentence ?
I have not said such a thing.
Only during John the baptists's time were men baptized for the remission of sins UNTO repentance.
Unto, to me, means "up to".
So in John's time, repentant folks were washed of their sins and continued on without more sins...if the repentance from sin was true.
Acts 2:38 is the first citation, but Acts 22:16 is another.
True, but without that relationship with God, it is impossible to be obedient to God.
He, and we, will know on the day of judgement.
A "race" remains to be run.
LOL, you take one leper's cleansing, which was not "by the Law" to make some point ?
What is your point ?
Interesting...I have not written to any unbelievers of a trinity since I arrived here.
I just posted the verse saying it was. "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8)
Scripture please.
Only God can give the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For those who know it is more than mere symbolism, Rom 6 lays out what occurs when we are "immersed" into Christ, and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
Those who think Rom 6 is mere symbolism, will not profit from it.
The Samarians hadn't all repented, and the Ephesians had not been baptized into Christ.
The laying on of hands is one of the basic doctrines mentioned in Heb 6.
Yes, exactly as Peter outlined it in Acts 2:38.
That only existed during John the baptist's ministry.
Technically, if they are repentant, they are no longer sinners.
They have "turned from" sin !
More side-tracks ?
What sins do babies have ?
Nope.
His baptism of fire will occur on the day of judgement.
Better r it again.
Nothing describes Paul's reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I am quite sure he was born again, by the seed of God. (1 John 3:9)
The baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins does, and even that had one exception...Cornelius' house.
As you just stated, repentance from sin comes before baptism for the remission of sins.
Peter outlines that sequence in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Got a point ?
Is remission of past sins necessary for salvation ?
Yes, it is.
And babies have no sins to be washed of, or repent of.
OK, I agree then that they had received the gift of the Holy Ghost !
How did we "get in Christ" ?
Rom 6:3 says we were baptized into Him..." Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
I beleive it.
As Rom 8:11 says..."But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
Newness of life !
Again you are erroneously putting baptism in front of repentance from sin.
The order presented by Peter in Acts 2:38 is...."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
As long as you have it in the wrong order, you are correct.
Turning from sin precedes water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Then the gift of the Holy Ghost will be given by God.
Just as Acts 2:38 says..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Thank God !
And that atoning, justifying, sanctifying, blood is applied to us at our "immersion" into Christ at His death.
If his repentance from sin was true, I agree with you.
So much for faith/belief alone...huh ?
Besides all your side-tracks, disbelief of Romans 6's events, and inability to keep the sequence of salvic events in order, I don't know.
It is the water by which the blood is applied to the repentant.
It is only controversial to those who don't believe it is true.
If he receives the gift of tongues I know he was repentant.
A good tree can only bear good fruit.
If bad fruit shows up we can tell the repentance from sin was false.
Semantics...
Carry_Your_Name
Member
More so than yours.
No one continued on "without more sins" until they accepted Christ who died for their sins.
In neither is found the false doctrine of "Baptismal Regeration" in the OP based on a misintetreptation of Jn. 3:5, which is what the OP is really addressing.
Obedience out of fear and consequences is one thing, obedienece out of love and trust is another.
Again, work based religion. Saved sinners run the race, not sinners run the race to be saved.
What was your point by arguing the uses of different words, when both were associated with cleansing of a leper?
Nonetheless, trinitarians have been using 1 Jn. 5:7-8 to justify trinity doctrine all the time.
And I have just pointed out that those three are not interchangeable, and 1 John 5:8 may be inauthentic.
Go read the great commission in Matt. 28.
It was mere symbolism for the Samaritans and the Ephesians.
It was mere symbolism for the Samaritans and the Ephesians.
Laying of hand is required for the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”(Acts. 8:17-19)
Therefore, baptism only symbolizes repentance. True repentance that bears fruit is necessary, water baptism is not.
We're not subject to John the baptist's ministry.
"Turned from sin" or not, unprofitable servants are treated the same as the unbelievers, and punished more severely than the unbelievers, says not I, but the Lord.
Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Lk. 12:44-48)
Rom. 5:12, Ps. 51:5.
You don't know that. Could be much sooner than you thought.
Now you're contradicting yourself. Ananias described it.
If he was born again, he had received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In that case, once again, Holy Spirit is received BEFORE any water baptism, therefore water baptism only symbolizes salvific status.
Cornelius and Paul received the Holy Spirit before baptism.
These Pharisees and Sedducees were not baptized for the remission of sins. Even if John had baptized them, their sins were not remitted.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Then is infant baptism a valid biblical practice? Yes or no? When or where did the Holy Spirit fall on any baby upon baptism - which was actually sprinkling of water, lest immersion endangers the baby's life?
So be it.
By belief in the gospel and repentance of sins.
That life starts with the receiving of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
You are, not I, as long as you cling to the false doctrine of "baptismal salvation".
How do you know whether a sinner has truly turned from sin? What are the fruits of true repentance?
No, applied at one's acceptance of him as their personal Lord and Savior by receiving the gospel.
Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. (Acts 2:41)
You don't know that. All speculation.
Faith/belief alone in WHAT? This further shows You don't know the difference.
You're the one who's been defending and propagating the false doctrine of baptismal salvation, not I. That order has been proven not to be a one size fits all formula, as with the exceptions where the Holy Spirit was received BEFORE baptism.
No, only the blood is mentioned. You're adding other things into it.
I side with credible theologians, historians and scholars who have studied the bible rather than worshiping it and using it against others.
It is debatable whether the gift of tongues is still being regularly granted today.
Lol, you sure? Ever read Is. 5:20?
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Yeah, just like "baptized in John's name" and "into John's Baptism".