Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[D-D-W]

Where is it stated that John's baptism saved?

Where does Matt 28 say that water baptism saves? Be careful with Mark 16 as Jesus does not say that "whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned." That he leaves it out for those who don't believe suggests that it isn't baptism that saves those who do believe. Salvation rests on belief in Christ and his work, as the rest of the NT states.

Where is it stated that such a baptism saves?

Where is it stated that such a baptism saves?

Where is it stated that such a baptism saves?

Where is it stated that such a baptism saves?

Right, so we cannot say that it saves.

Did I say any of those baptisms are salvic? No.

 

[D-D-W]

Matthew 7 has nothing to do with Matthew 25.

If someone Never knew the Lord then obviously they were never His people, never saved; never born again, never joined to Christ, never one with Christ.

Read Matt 7.23 again. It is NOT about whether they knew the Lord or not; it is the Lord who never knew them.

 

[Free]

Did I say any of those baptisms are salvic? No.

But the question you were responding to was: “What baptism saves?”. By then listing different baptisms, your response implies that those baptisms saved, since you didn’t say otherwise.

 

[JLB]

Matt 25:31-46 is about the final judgement of all people. The point is, that some will go to eternal punishment and the righteous to eternal life. But, what determines who is righteous and who isn't? It isn't works, as Matt 7 makes clear; it's about those who have a relationship with Jesus, the evidence of which are good works, as pointed out in Matt 25

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
“So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:14-46


As we see from the context, Jesus is teaching about His own servants standing before Him on the day of Judgement.

• For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability;

 

[JLB]

Read Matt 7.23 again. It is NOT about whether they knew the Lord or not; it is the Lord who never knew them.

Knowing between a man and woman is mutual.

If the LORD never know you that mean you never knew the LORD.


If a woman never knew a man then a man never knew her;
IOW’s she is still a virgin.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

If we know Him, it means we are joined to Him being one spirit with Him.

Knowing is mutual.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

 

[Free]

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
“So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:14-46


As we see from the context, Jesus is teaching about His own servants standing before Him on the day of Judgement.

• For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability;

No, he isn’t. Just as with Matt 7:21-23, the whole point is that there are those who are true followers of Christ, who have a relationship with him and whom he knows, and there are those who think they’re his followers but have no relationship with him and whom he doesn’t know. Theirs is a works based salvation, but as we see in both Matt 7 and 25, works without faith or no works at all—being unprepared for his coming and being without relationship—leads only to eternal destruction.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. (ESV)

This is the population of the entire world, believers and unbelievers, at the final judgement, just like in Matt 7. The sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers. In Matt 7:21-23, there are those who did what they thought were righteous works, in Jesus's name even, but he says he never knew them. That proves that works do not justify.

There is simply no way to say that this applies to true followers of Christ:

Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ (ESV)

That is a person who didn't know Christ at all, hence, an unbeliever.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, he isn’t. Just as with Matt 7:21-23, the whole point is that there are those who are true followers of Christ, who have a relationship with him and whom he knows, and there are those who think they’re his followers but have no relationship with him and whom he doesn’t know. Theirs is a works based salvation, but as we see in both Matt 7 and 25, works without faith or no works at all—being unprepared for his coming and being without relationship—leads only to eternal destruction.

You forgot about those in the last words of the verse..."depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23)
The sinners !
I can agree with you, if the "works" you cite are sinful works.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. (ESV)

This is the population of the entire world, believers and unbelievers, at the final judgement, just like in Matt 7. The sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers. In Matt 7:21-23, there are those who did what they thought were righteous works, in Jesus's name even, but he says he never knew them. That proves that works do not justify.

There is simply no way to say that this applies to true followers of Christ:

Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ (ESV)

That is a person who didn't know Christ at all, hence, an unbeliever.

 

[Corn Pop]

Immersion in water is an ordinance of God. The Pharisees refused to be immersed in water and are said to have rejected the will of God against themselves for not doing it.
Jesus was also immersed in water to fulfill all righteousness.

To think that Jesus was saying someone had to be born of the water of a womb sounds ridiculous to me. As if there are some who are not born of the water of a womb.

Christianity comes from the birth, death, and ressurection of Christ. That is the baptism, not being dunked in water. Water does not save anyone as I see it only Christs work.

Out of the old into the new, born again baptism, buried in the flesh and raised to life in the Spirit through Christ. Water baptism is symbolic and has meaning so there is nothing wrong with water baptism if people do get water baptised but the ultimate baptism is Christs work. Believe in Christs work and have hope and faith in him what is more greater than that?. Not being dunked in water. Water is is life, water is great, water is living in my belief.

It should never even get to the point where salvation is argued between Christs work and getting dunked in water. Christs work is greater than someone being dunked in water.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Christianity comes from the birth, death, and ressurection of Christ. That is the baptism, not being dunked in water. Water does not save anyone as I see it only Christs work.

Out of the old into the new, born again baptism, buried in the flesh and raised to life in the Spirit through Christ. Water baptism is symbolic and has meaning so there is nothing wrong with water baptism if people do get water baptised but the ultimate baptism is Christs work.

You are going to need to show at least one instance of that happening in the bible.
The Ethiopian eunuch would argue against your point. (Acts 8:36)
So would the twelve at Ephesus. (Acts 19:5)

 

[Corn Pop]

I don't place any work equal or above Christs work alone. I do not believe someone dunking someone else in water is a need for salvation and to recieve Gods grace and mercy.

If im wrong im wrong and if God is going to condemn me because I put my faith, hope, and trust in his works alone and I didn't get dunked in water then so be it. I don't think so, but i'm not the ultimate judge.

Im not judging anyone in Christ im the one who gets judged by others.

As I said there is nothing wrong with water baptism i dont critises it or discourage anyone , yet im not baptised myself so im someone who might not end up being baptised in water and some people try to make out like Jesus condemns me for that. Judging others in his name. I don't judge the baptised yet some of the baptised will judge me.

My trust and hope is in Christ and he's greater than someone dunking my head in water so I will leave it there and if people want to critises me for that then so be it. If water was offered I wouldn't refuse if I seen people getting baptised as example, I just don't believe it's an absolute need for Gods forgiveness grace and mercy as that comes through Christ alone.

 

[Free]

You forgot about those in the last words of the verse..."depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23)
The sinners !

Yes, unbelievers, more specifically, false prophets and false teachers, as per verses 15-20.

I can agree with you, if the "works" you cite are sinful works.

You can agree with what, specifically?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, unbelievers, more specifically, false prophets and false teachers, as per verses 15-20.

You can agree with what, specifically?

I can agree with your POV if the "works" you cite are sinful.
Jesus called them "iniquity" in Matt 7:23.
In the end Jesus will say "depart from me, sinner !"

 

[Dave...]

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Romans 10:2-4 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

All Jesus = salvation.

All you = hell.

Those are your choices. Once you add your works, even one, 'all you' applies.

You have sin, and you failed God's perfect standard. For "what is impossible for man is possible for God." Jesus said that. Why? Because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Why is this so hard to understand?

Dave

 

[D-D-W]

Knowing between a man and woman is mutual.
If the LORD never know you that mean you never knew the LORD.

I am not sure that is a legitimate comparison.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This is the population of the entire world, believers and unbelievers, at the final judgement, just like in Matt 7. The sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers. In Matt 7:21-23, there are those who did what they thought were righteous works, in Jesus's name even, but he says he never knew them. That proves that works do not justify.

The tricky thing is that the previous two parables (of talent and the ten virgins) are fir the Christians, especially in the second one, five wise virgins are separated from five foolish virgins; this one however is the judgement of the NATIONS - aka what “gentile” means, based on how they have treated “my brethrens”, which is all believers who do his work, see Matt. 12:48. He’s separating not Christians, but the nations into sheep and goats.

 

[Randy]

The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Water baptism in name of the Father, Son, Spirit was ordained by Jesus and was practiced in the NT as we read and so to this very day. I was baptized myself, but Jesus is not bound by it before He forgives sin. He's looking at the heart of a person and nothing is hidden from Him. Anyone who calls on Him with true faith will be saved.

 

[JLB]

No, he isn’t.

You are arguing against the context.

 

[JLB]

I am not sure that is a legitimate comparison.

If a man “knows” a woman then by default the woman also “knows” the man.

And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, “For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed.” Genesis 4:25

 

[Corinth77777]

The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Water baptism in name of the Father, Son, Spirit was ordained by Jesus and was practiced in the NT as we read and so to this very day. I was baptized myself, but Jesus is not bound by it before He forgives sin. He's looking at the heart of a person and nothing is hidden from Him. Anyone who calls on Him with true faith will be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Romans 10:2-4 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

All Jesus = salvation.

All you = hell.

Those are your choices. Once you add your works, even one, 'all you' applies.

You have sin, and you failed God's perfect standard. For "what is impossible for man is possible for God." Jesus said that. Why? Because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Why is this so hard to understand?

Dave

I disagree about the "once you add work"
For couldn't your thumb note "all Jesus" Be in what He tells you to do? For can not the Faith in "all Jesus" be in your intent walk in his teachings?

Like part of the scriptures that says: Believe in your heart Jesus and confess with your mouth for example?

Why could not the latter confession be part of faith...as water Baptism.

One ideal that passage says to me is that the outside has to match the inside.

So any outward act of what one believes sounds like it would show who one trust. That would mean belief plus intention to act= Faith-

Or
Faith is moving in what you say you believe


Therefore one might say the faith that works by love is a faith that acts.

The first step would seem to get the inner dimension of the heart clean- the second step
Would be Confession.

But Confession could be water baptism or the calling upon His name as or in the act of water baptism.

For if Confession means to own up to the condition of your soul then it may be represented through the movement by any outward sign.

So it just might not be the water but the movement towards the water.
More so it teaches me Our Faith alone will not save others- But movement from what we believe will.

Think about it Jesus belief alone in God didnt save anyone but when He gave His life as a living sacrafice, and God raised Him it did.

So it sounds like When you move He moves.

As I am writing I see water Baptism -a seal of ones inner faith. WHICH IS Highly possibly that God could confirm you at water Baptism as His.

Yet I believe He can also confirm one through any act of faith. Rather scriptures open up, they speak in tongues, prophesy all these gifts seem to proclaim the mighy works of God to others.

I see them metaphorically as living waters
The Spirit being poured out.

unfortunately I can also see why people leave the faith...
So many trying to formulate how God only works through things they've experienced. And seeing their church as the correct way and only way to God.

But God cannot be contained by man especially where man judge others from their formulas. For God is the only God. And it is He who justifies.

 

[Corinth77777]

I disagree about the "once you add work"
For couldn't your thumb note "all Jesus" Be in what He tells you to do? For can not the Faith in "all Jesus" be in your intent walk in his teachings?

Like part of the scriptures that says: Believe in your heart Jesus and confess with your mouth for example?

Why could not the latter confession be part of faith...as water Baptism.

One ideal that passage says to me is that the outside has to match the inside.

So any outward act of what one believes sounds like it would show who one trust. That would mean belief plus intention to act= Faith-

Or
Faith is moving in what you say you believe


Therefore one might say the faith that works by love is a faith that acts.

The first step would seem to get the inner dimension of the heart clean- the second step
Would be Confession.

But Confession could be water baptism or the calling upon His name as or in the act of water baptism.

For if Confession means to own up to the condition of your soul then it may be represented through the movement by any outward sign.

So it just might not be the water but the movement towards the water.
More so it teaches me Our Faith alone will not save others- But movement from what we believe will.

Think about it Jesus belief alone in God didnt save anyone but when He gave His life as a living sacrafice, and God raised Him it did.

So it sounds like When you move He moves.

As I am writing I see water Baptism -a seal of ones inner faith. WHICH IS Highly possibly that God could confirm you at water Baptism as His.

Yet I believe He can also confirm one through any act of faith. Rather scriptures open up, they speak in tongues, prophesy all these gifts seem to proclaim the mighy works of God to others.

I see them metaphorically as living waters
The Spirit being poured out.

unfortunately I can also see why people leave the faith...
So many trying to formulate how God only works through things they've experienced. And seeing their church as the correct way and only way to God.

But God cannot be contained by man especially where man judge others from their formulas. For God is the only God. And it is He who justifies.

Let me also note towards the statement of "adding works" something that just came to me

The confession is made toward salvation

One is saved, and one continuing in His works is also saved or being saved.

So we are saved by His faith ( a faith that intends to act) and we are saved ( as we walk in His works that He prepared before hand that we should do)

So the so called, " works we do" are part of our salvation

Works of light, works of righteousness, they are not ours but of Christ.

For if we walk in the Spirit we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness.