Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[D-D-W]

Where is it stated that John's baptism saved?

Where does Matt 28 say that water baptism saves? Be careful with Mark 16 as Jesus does not say that "whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned." That he leaves it out for those who don't believe suggests that it isn't baptism that saves those who do believe. Salvation rests on belief in Christ and his work, as the rest of the NT states.

Where is it stated that such a baptism saves?

Where is it stated that such a baptism saves?

Where is it stated that such a baptism saves?

Where is it stated that such a baptism saves?

Right, so we cannot say that it saves.

Did I say any of those baptisms are salvic? No.

 

[D-D-W]

Matthew 7 has nothing to do with Matthew 25.

If someone Never knew the Lord then obviously they were never His people, never saved; never born again, never joined to Christ, never one with Christ.

Read Matt 7.23 again. It is NOT about whether they knew the Lord or not; it is the Lord who never knew them.

 

[Free]

Did I say any of those baptisms are salvic? No.

But the question you were responding to was: “What baptism saves?”. By then listing different baptisms, your response implies that those baptisms saved, since you didn’t say otherwise.

 

[JLB]

Matt 25:31-46 is about the final judgement of all people. The point is, that some will go to eternal punishment and the righteous to eternal life. But, what determines who is righteous and who isn't? It isn't works, as Matt 7 makes clear; it's about those who have a relationship with Jesus, the evidence of which are good works, as pointed out in Matt 25

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
“So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:14-46


As we see from the context, Jesus is teaching about His own servants standing before Him on the day of Judgement.

• For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability;

 

[JLB]

Read Matt 7.23 again. It is NOT about whether they knew the Lord or not; it is the Lord who never knew them.

Knowing between a man and woman is mutual.

If the LORD never know you that mean you never knew the LORD.


If a woman never knew a man then a man never knew her;
IOW’s she is still a virgin.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

If we know Him, it means we are joined to Him being one spirit with Him.

Knowing is mutual.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

 

[Free]

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
“So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:14-46


As we see from the context, Jesus is teaching about His own servants standing before Him on the day of Judgement.

• For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability;

No, he isn’t. Just as with Matt 7:21-23, the whole point is that there are those who are true followers of Christ, who have a relationship with him and whom he knows, and there are those who think they’re his followers but have no relationship with him and whom he doesn’t know. Theirs is a works based salvation, but as we see in both Matt 7 and 25, works without faith or no works at all—being unprepared for his coming and being without relationship—leads only to eternal destruction.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. (ESV)

This is the population of the entire world, believers and unbelievers, at the final judgement, just like in Matt 7. The sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers. In Matt 7:21-23, there are those who did what they thought were righteous works, in Jesus's name even, but he says he never knew them. That proves that works do not justify.

There is simply no way to say that this applies to true followers of Christ:

Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ (ESV)

That is a person who didn't know Christ at all, hence, an unbeliever.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, he isn’t. Just as with Matt 7:21-23, the whole point is that there are those who are true followers of Christ, who have a relationship with him and whom he knows, and there are those who think they’re his followers but have no relationship with him and whom he doesn’t know. Theirs is a works based salvation, but as we see in both Matt 7 and 25, works without faith or no works at all—being unprepared for his coming and being without relationship—leads only to eternal destruction.

You forgot about those in the last words of the verse..."depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23)
The sinners !
I can agree with you, if the "works" you cite are sinful works.

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. (ESV)

This is the population of the entire world, believers and unbelievers, at the final judgement, just like in Matt 7. The sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers. In Matt 7:21-23, there are those who did what they thought were righteous works, in Jesus's name even, but he says he never knew them. That proves that works do not justify.

There is simply no way to say that this applies to true followers of Christ:

Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ (ESV)

That is a person who didn't know Christ at all, hence, an unbeliever.

 

[Corn Pop]

Immersion in water is an ordinance of God. The Pharisees refused to be immersed in water and are said to have rejected the will of God against themselves for not doing it.
Jesus was also immersed in water to fulfill all righteousness.

To think that Jesus was saying someone had to be born of the water of a womb sounds ridiculous to me. As if there are some who are not born of the water of a womb.

Christianity comes from the birth, death, and ressurection of Christ. That is the baptism, not being dunked in water. Water does not save anyone as I see it only Christs work.

Out of the old into the new, born again baptism, buried in the flesh and raised to life in the Spirit through Christ. Water baptism is symbolic and has meaning so there is nothing wrong with water baptism if people do get water baptised but the ultimate baptism is Christs work. Believe in Christs work and have hope and faith in him what is more greater than that?. Not being dunked in water. Water is is life, water is great, water is living in my belief.

It should never even get to the point where salvation is argued between Christs work and getting dunked in water. Christs work is greater than someone being dunked in water.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Christianity comes from the birth, death, and ressurection of Christ. That is the baptism, not being dunked in water. Water does not save anyone as I see it only Christs work.

Out of the old into the new, born again baptism, buried in the flesh and raised to life in the Spirit through Christ. Water baptism is symbolic and has meaning so there is nothing wrong with water baptism if people do get water baptised but the ultimate baptism is Christs work.

You are going to need to show at least one instance of that happening in the bible.
The Ethiopian eunuch would argue against your point. (Acts 8:36)
So would the twelve at Ephesus. (Acts 19:5)