Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[Hopeful 2]

Genesis 3:20-23 And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

Dave

I guess it just depends on your definition of "God's presence".
As God was still talking with men when Cain and Abel did their sacrifices, I find it difficult to think He wasn't somehow present with Adam and Eve anymore.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You're probably correct ... but it is still an assumption. The point was to show multiple potential meanings of the word "all".


Probably ... but the universalists use verses with ALL ..

• 2 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Heb. 2:9)
• we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11)
• etc

Other popular verses to distort that use ALL ...
1 Timothy 2:6
Hebrews 2:9
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
1 Corinthians 15:22
Romans 5:18

I grant that you are well versed and consider context, but I'd say a majority do not.

Universalists ignored about Jn. 3:17-18 - "he who does not believe is condemned already." Salvation is willed by God, but also must be accepted by men. That is the real distortion.

 

[Corn Pop]

John's baptism is a baptism of repentance and Jesus got baptised by John so he repented for the house of Israel as sinless, and as John said after his baptism of water is a greater baptism. Jesus coverted water into wine. Through Jesus baptism that is his death and ressurection is the baptism of Water and Spirit that he gives through him.

Christ washes clean so thats the Water and he gives the Spirit. That's both Water and Spirit. Baptised into Christs baptism. He is the living water and gives the Spirit. I don't need someone to dunk my head in water. Christ is greater. Even there is nothing wrong with water dunking as it's a baptism of repentance.

 

[Corn Pop]

Faith saves, believing Christ and his work that gives thanks and praise and glory to the Father, that's the gospel. Otherwise no one would need Christ. Everyone who believes the gospel only believes because they know they need Gods forgivness and give praise and thanks to God and Christ for mercy and forgiveness. That's repentance. That's the gospel. You only believe in Christ because you repent and believe you need him and you give praise and thanks out of repentance and want to have a good relationship with God and praise him for washing you clean through Christ. You sing songs to the Lord out of love thanking him and honor him and put him on the throne as worthy , full of the Holy Spirit, best feeling in the world higher than life, otherwise you wouldn't do it and believe you dont need him.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Faith saves, believing Christ and his work that gives thanks and praise and glory to the Father, that's the gospel. Otherwise no one would need Christ. Everyone who believes the gospel only believes because they know they need Gods forgivness and give praise and thanks to God and Christ for mercy and forgiveness. That's repentance. That's the gospel. You only believe in Christ because you repent and believe you need him and you give praise and thanks out of repentance and want to have a good relationship with God and praise him for washing you clean through Christ. You sing songs to the Lord out of love thanking him and honor him and put him on the throne as worthy , full of the Holy Spirit, best feeling in the world higher than life, otherwise you wouldn't do it and believe you dont need him.

Yes, water baptism is a sacred ritual, you're baptized into a church community, but not necessarily into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Corinth77777]

So, to be consistent then, you must necessarily believe that babies that die by miscarriages and abortions, or are stillborn, cannot enter the kingdom of God. Is that your position?

What in the context makes you think “born of water” is referring to natural birth?

I think it's right in the passage but people like to read through their lens. He was already born of water, He needed to be born of the Spirit.

Flesh gives birth to what is flesh and Spirit gives birth to what is Spirit

To be born again- many take it to mean to be born from above, the one who came from above.

 

[Corinth77777]

No, Christians are already judged in the previous two parables. If you’re so against work, then what are the investment of talents and the preparation of oil about? Are those “works”? And what sets “my brethren” apart from the sheep and goats? How are they not judged in this one?

believing who Jesus is.....saves
But the works that He prepared in advance that we walk in save.

 

[Corinth77777]

I guess it just depends on your definition of "God's presence".
As God was still talking with men when Cain and Abel did their sacrifices, I find it difficult to think He wasn't somehow present with Adam and Eve anymore.

I believe God still dealt with Him but they in someway had to be covered....

 

[Butch5]

There are some who believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation based on a handful of Scriptures.

Baptismal regeneration is the doctrine that baptism results in regeneration of the subject baptized. Usually based upon John 3:5 and Titus 3:5.

I have concluded that Baptismal Regeration is a work added to Salvation and consider it a different Gospel.

Studying these scriptures and reading commentaries shed much light for me on this subject. I turn to men of God who are fluent in the original languages and understand hermeneutics more than I ever can.

There are many different interpretations of this verse including two births (physical and spiritual), water as a symbol for Holy Spirit or the word of God. I would like to focus on what some would believe is Baptismal Regenration (born of water).

There are other Scriptures that can be addressed as well.

This should be a good start.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 does not teach Baptismal Regeneration. In fact, it is not even referring to baptism! In John 3, Jesus makes the statement that, “Unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God” (3:3). In response, Nicodemus asks, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (3:4). Jesus’ answer is, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” (3:5). In the context of this conversation it is more natural to understand Jesus’ use of the word “water” as a reference to physical birth rather than baptism. As every mother knows, all children are literally born “out of water.” Therefore, when Nicodemus asked, “Can a man be born a second time from his mother’s womb?” Jesus in essence conceded that a man had to be born of water, that is, physically. Yet, He went on to insist that the second birth was spiritual in nature. Thus, John 3 does not teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation. It teaches that physical birth is. In other words, a person must be born before he can be born again. John 3:6 confirms this view, saying “that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit.” That says it all.
[1]Chafer Theological Seminary. (1997; 2002). Chafer Theological Seminary Journal Volume 3


Carson has an excellent argument against this interpretation writing that "If water = baptism is so important for entering the kingdom, it is surprising that the rest of the discussion never mentions it again: the entire focus is on the work of the Spirit (v. 8), the work of the Son (vv. 14–15), the work of God himself (vv. 16–17), and the place of faith (vv. 15–16)....The Spirit plays a powerful role in John 14–16; 20:22, but there is no hint of baptism.....The entire view seems to rest on an unarticulated prejudice that every mention of water evoked instant recognition, in the minds of first-century readers, that the real reference was to baptism, but it is very doubtful that this prejudice can be sustained by the sources. Even so, this conclusion does not preclude the possibility of a secondary allusion to baptism" Borrow The Gospel according to John)

J M Boice - Unfortunately, this is not substantiated either by the text or by biblical theology. The text says nothing at all about baptism, and the Bible elsewhere teaches that no one is saved by any external rite of religion (1 Sam. 16:7; Rom. 2:28–29; Gal. 2:15, 16; 5:1–6). Baptism is a sign of what has already taken place, but it is not the agent by which it takes place.(Boice - The Gospel of John)

Kenneth Wuest - Others interpret the word “water” as referring to the rite of water baptism. But we submit that this is pure eisegesis, reading into the text something that is not there. Surely, the word “water” in itself, does not include within its meaning the idea of baptism. Furthermore, the only proper recipient of water baptism is one who has already been born again, the new-birth preceding water baptism, not the rite preceding the new birth. Again, the question arises as to how such a supernatural change as regeneration produces, could be the result of a mere ceremony.

MacArthur - Others see in the phrase born of water a reference to baptism, either that of John the Baptist, or Christian baptism. But Nicodemus would not have understood Christian baptism (which did not yet exist) nor misunderstood John the Baptist’s baptism. Nor would Jesus have refrained from baptizing people (Jn 4:2) if baptism were necessary for salvation. (See John Commentary - What Does It Mean to be Born of Water and Spirit?)

The Scriptures are clear that baptism precedes regeneration. People make up all kinds of excuses to say otherwise, but those who are intellectually honest with themselves can only come to one conclusion. Men of God fluent in the origial languages aren't going to help. You can find them on both sides of the issue. They, like all people, have preconceptions. It is one's preconceptions that drive their interpretation.

Born of water and the Spirit is just that, it's receiving the Holy Spirit and water baptism. You alluded to Titus 3:5. That passage, when literally translated, reads, by the bath of regeneration. It's a bath. There is only one bath in the Christian religion and that's water baptism.

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by vthe washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Tt 3:5.

Also, the argument that Baptism is a work is a non issue. The whole "works don't save" argument is based on a misunderstanding of Paul's teachings. When Paul says a person isn't saved by works, he's speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law. He's not saying that works are anything a person does, as is so often claimed today.

 

[Corinth77777]

No one can prove anything on this forum
No one was there.
Not having enough History doesn't help either.
No one knows what was in their hearts but God.

But here are somethings we can speculate on:

That once identified with the death and resurrection of Christ while physically alive, Even the one coming out from water we should have access to the kingdom and it's power.

While there are many kingdoms among us, Our king is Jesus. Water Baptism, rather the ark, or red sea we can find that the presence of God was always there.

 

[Corinth77777]

The Scriptures are clear that baptism precedes regeneration.

they already proved this was not true

People make up all kinds of excuses to say otherwise, but those who are intellectually honest with themselves can only come to one conclusion.

no they got it from scripture

Men of God fluent in the origial languages aren't going to help. You can find them on both sides of the issue. They, like all people, have preconceptions. It is one's preconceptions that drive their interpretation.

now this be true

Born of water and the Spirit is just that, it's receiving the Holy Spirit and water baptism.

That's your preconception

You alluded to Titus 3:5. That passage, when literally translated, reads, by the bath of regeneration. It's a bath. There is only one bath in the Christian religion and that's water baptism.

Not according to many scholar's interpretations

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

meaning not works to earn, for who has given to God that He shall repay. If it were by man's human abilities then they are capable of justifying themselves and judging. But It's not by man's human ability to earn.

The washing of regeneration is not by your doing-
Ephesians 5

"that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word"

It is also easy to see with the scripture above that the conscience is the heart of the matter.

We are to be transformed by the renewing of the mind

What comes first? The inside made clean then the outside will be clean as well.

Hebrews 10:22

Hebrews 10:22 (NKJV) “let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Tt 3:5.

Also, the argument that Baptism is a work is a non issue. The whole "works don't save" argument is based on a misunderstanding of Paul's teachings. When Paul says a person isn't saved by works, he's speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law.

Where does scripture say He is speaking of the Mosaic Law.

In this case if they do it to earn salvation then it would be a work.
However if it is done based on having repented, rethinking your thinking. Then the conscience would in this case (speculatively) be cleaned before entering the water, calling upon the name of the Lord. Does the scripture say?

There is a difference between receiving the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit.

He's not saying that works are anything a person does, as is so often claimed today.

No but it does say works of righteousness, and seeing the Gentiles were without the Mosaic law then what works would apply to them? I would speculate any works of righteousness that one tries to earn salvation by. For earning as mentioned by Willard comes with an attitude. An attitude of boasting.

 

[Corinth77777]

Can one show clearly that some who were baptizing were still baptizing under the baptism of repentance?

 

[Hopeful 2]

I believe God still dealt with Him but they in someway had to be covered....

That is a tad out of context to what I was replying to.

 

[Hopeful 2]

John's baptism is a baptism of repentance and Jesus got baptised by John so he repented for the house of Israel

Got a scripture that says Jesus repented of anything ?
Much less for the sins of others ?

as sinless, and as John said after his baptism of water is a greater baptism.

Yes, the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus coverted water into wine. Through Jesus baptism that is his death and ressurection is the baptism of Water and Spirit that he gives through him.

Lost me there...

Christ washes clean so thats the Water and he gives the Spirit. That's both Water and Spirit. Baptised into Christs baptism. He is the living water and gives the Spirit. I don't need someone to dunk my head in water. Christ is greater. Even there is nothing wrong with water dunking as it's a baptism of repentance.

How is that water and blood applied to your vessel to make it clean ?

 

[Butch5]

they already proved this was not true

Actually, they didn't because it is true

no they got it from scripture

No, they didn't. They got it by misinterpreting Scripture

now this be true

It is true

That's your preconception

No, it's what the Scriptures tell us

Not according to many scholar's interpretations

The appeal to many argument is a fallacy.

meaning not works to earn, for who has given to God that He shall repay. If it were by man's human abilities then they are capable of justifying themselves and judging. But It's not by man's human ability to earn.

Scripture out of context and a Red Herring fallacy. No one said anything about saving oneself.

The washing of regeneration is not by your doing-
Ephesians 5

"that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word"

The word washing there is the word Loutron. It means a bath. Literally it's "the bath of water by the command."
What command was given about a bath of water?

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 28:19–20.

That is the bath or water by the command.

It is also easy to see with the scripture above that the conscience is the heart of the matter.

We are to be transformed by the renewing of the mind

What comes first? The inside made clean then the outside will be clean as well.

Hebrews 10:22

Hebrews 10:22 (NKJV) “let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”

The order isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not water baptism is necessary. Of course, a change of heart precedes water baptism. But that doesn't address the necessity question. And, even in this passage we see that the bodies are to be washed with pure water. Again, that's water baptism.

Where does scripture say He is speaking of the Mosaic Law.

The context. The problem is people don't look past the sentence they're quoting.

In this case if they do it to earn salvation then it would be a work.

If it is a work, there's nothing wrong with that. As I said, the works argument is misplaced. It's not real argument as far as Scripture is concerned. It was made up by Luther. He either didn't grasp Paul's argument or worse he purposely made the argument to argue against the Catholic church doctrines of indulgences.

There is a difference between receiving the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

That's irrelevant.

No but it does say works of righteousness, and seeing the Gentiles were without the Mosaic law then what works would apply to them? I would speculate any works of righteousness that one tries to earn salvation by. For earning as mentioned by Willard comes with an attitude. An attitude of boasting.

That's one reason Christians should look at church history. If you look at Paul 's writings, virtually everywhere he speaks of not being saved by works the context is the Mosaic Law. We don't get to take his words and apply our own context and definitions.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey cthe truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ga 3:1–5.

Here we see that Paul equates the works of the Law with the flesh.

.20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by lthe law and mthe prophets;

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 3:19–22.

We see here that Paul understood that righteousness before Christ was via the Law of Moses.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 4:11.

Here we see that Abraham did something to receive that seal of righteousness.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 9:31.

Here we see that Paul equates the Law of Moses with righteousness. He calls it the Law of Righteousness.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 10:4–5.

Here Paul says Christ is the end of the Law for believers. That Law is a law of Righteousness as we see in this passage.

3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, nan Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Php 3.

Paul here equates a righteousness with the Law. So, Paul understands that there is a righteousness in the Law.

, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Php 3:8–9.

Again, Paul sees a righteousness in keeping the Law. This was a common belief among the Jews. So, keeping the Law is "righteous deeds."

Regarding the Gentiles, no, they didn't have the Law. What they had was the Judaizers. The Judaizers were Jews who had accepted Christ but also insisted that the Gentiles keep the Law of Moses. They went behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also had to keep the Law.

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 15:1–2.

They were telling the Gentiles they had to be circumcised. So Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to speak with the other apostles.

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 15:4–5.

When they went to the Jerusalem church there was a group who said the Gentiles must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. This was the same thing the Judaizers were claiming. We see this with the Galatians.

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ga 3.

We see that someone was telling the Gentiles that they had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. Paul equates keeping the Law with the works of the flesh or keeping ordinances. He's asking the Galatians, did you receive the Spirit through faith or through keeping the righteous deeds of the Law? He's clearly contrasting being saved by faith or being saved by works. It's abundantly clear that these works are the works of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Dave...]

This is being made way more complicated than it needs to be.

We know that there is a baptism that saves. Peter said so...

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

What does baptism mean?

There is a 'placing into' that saves us.

There is an 'immersion' that saves us.

Do we all agree so far?

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

One immersion, one placing into. We are only placed into the Body, the Church, Jesus, one time. Do we still all agree that we are all placed into the Body one time? That we are all immersed "in Christ" one time?

What about in 1 Peter he's speaking of two baptisms, one that saves the other that doesn't?

Which one saves, Peter? "not the removal of filth from the flesh". Apply rocket surgery now!!

The immersion, the placing into water doesn't save us.

But being placed into, or immersed into the Body, by Jesus, with the Holy Spirit does?

And water??? It's just water. We aren't saved by being washed on the outside. It's a type. The whole OT is a type. We need to be washed on the inside. As a side note, water baptism cannot initiate Spirit baptism, faith does. Besides, Peter contrasts the two baptisms when speaking of salvation.

Galatians 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Apply brain science now!!)

Only idolatry can keep people putting tradition over truth. It's not that complicated. The simplicity of the Gospel. When tradition and truth part ways, Who will you follow?

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Right after that, Paul goes into speaking of the immersion, the placing into that saves. (vs9-14)

My interpretation of these passages are in harmony with the rest of scripture. The are not obscure passages that disregard context.

Dave

 

[Butch5]

This is being made way more complicated than it needs to be.

We know that there is a baptism that saves. Peter said so...

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

What does baptism mean?

There is a 'placing into' that saves us.

There is an 'immersion' that saves us.

Do we all agree so far?

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

One immersion, one placing into. We are only placed into the Body, the Church, Jesus, one time. Do we still all agree that we are all placed into the Body one time? That we are all immersed "in Christ" one time?

But wait, that one baptism. What about in 1 Peter he's speaking of two baptisms, one that saves the other that doesn't?

Which one saves, Peter? "not the removal of filth from the flesh". Apply rocket surgery now!!

The immersion, the placing into water doesn't save us.

But being placed into, or immersed into the Body, by Jesus, with the Holy Spirit does?

And water??? It's just water. We aren't saved by being washed on the outside. It's a type. The whole OT is a type. We need to be washed on the inside. As a side note, water baptism cannot initiate Spirit baptism, faith does. Besides, Peter contrasts the two baptisms when speaking of salvation.

Galatians 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Apply brain science now!!)

Only idolatry can keep people putting tradition over truth. It's not that complicated. The simplicity of the Gospel, I believe we call it. When tradition and truth part ways, Who will you follow?

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Right after that He goes into speaking of the immersion, the placing into that saves.

My interpretation of these passages are inharmony with the rest of scripture. The are not obscure passages that disregard context.

Dave

You may want to read Peter's example again. He says it was the water that saved Noah.

 

[JLB]

New creatures have been reborn of the Spirit !
They are Spirit !

Born again refers to the human spirit not the human body.

Again same scripture.

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


The Holy Spirit does not give birth (rebirth) to our flesh.

 

[JLB]

Basic logic tells us that if a person must first be born in order to be "born again,"

Amen. That is what Jesus s teaching Nicodemus.

He uses earthly things (natural birth) to teach him spiritual things (spiritual birth).